Combat systems - pros & cons

[theSea]

Hi all --


I apologise in advance for the length of this post - much of it is in the vein of thinking outloud....

Well, my T20 campaign has fizzled due to real-life commitments on the part of some of the players... so I'll be starting anew.

In the interest of nostalgia (or orthodoxy if you prefer) my new campaign is going to be more of a CT experience... T20 is nice but I want to go back to 'the real deal.' Besides - I have all of this CT/MT stuff around and I want to use it! The setting will be Regina 1105 and we'll be campaigning through as many of the CT adventures as I can coherently string together.

The player mix is interesting - 4 always seems to be my magic number for players. I have 2 experienced RPG'ers: 1 is a holdover from my T20 game - the other is a D&D-er from way back. Neither have played CT before. The other 2 are complete RPG newbs who (foolishly

) trust me enough to take a chance. Copies of Book 0 to be loaned out as appropriate...

Anyways - I have a free hand as to how I want to run this game (mechanics wise) and I want to make it as fun as possible for all concerned - 'cause I want them to STAY dammit!

I'm not afraid to mix and match - but at this point I'm leaning towards MT all around even though I've never run it before - enough of the rules are familiar that I should get up to speed okay.

I'm definitely going to use the DGP task system and will probably use the MT character generation rules as well, if only because they centralize all the various CT stuff.

I'm not so sure about combat - both personal and starship. The problem is that I want to keep my two RPG grognards interested while at the same time not throwing something so complex at the newbies that they become bored with the mechanics of it all and go to sleep.

And of course we don't want to task overload your friendly ref either.

Personal Combat:
I want a system that's a bit more robust than the vanilla CT personal combat system, but vCT is the only one I've run. I'm planning on using counters/minis on a 15mm grid - the visual aid will work well for the newbs, grogs will enjoy the crunchy deck plans (CC2 is your friend!).

Should I stick with vCT? It's probably the system I'm most comfortable with, but I'm not too sure that it's going to keep the grogs happy and all of the DM's are likely to confuse the newbs.

I have a copy of Snapshot, but I'll confess I'm pretty clueless as to how it plays. AHL is not available except through the reprint version.

Striker would definitely overwhealm the newbs.

The MT system looks promising but rather complex for my new players - how does it play out from a flow standpoint? Any hints/tips on running smooth fights?

I have a copy of At Close Quarters and am very intrigued by its action point system. Any opinions from folks that have used it would be quite welcome.

TNE is definitely out unless there is a very compelling reason - too much for the ref to learn. I don't have the T4 rules.

Starship Combat:
Two important factors here - should work with a hex map and minis/counters (again trying to keep the newbs interested via visual aids) and needs to integrate well with the roleplaying.

I've never run the Book Two system and the vector bookeeping looks to be a bear - but it does seem to rate high on the 'integrates well with roleplaying' scale.

I'm familiar with High Guard as it's what we used 'back in the day' but might be a little too abstract for the newbs. Has anyone played HG with a hex map?

I have an old copy of Mayday but it's unpunched so I've not really sat down and played it. Looks like the movement rules are cool - I *do* want vector movement if I can pull it off. Mayday does seem a bit 'equipment limited' though. Crunchyness for the grognards is still a factor here... ...perhaps the CT or HG rules with the Mayday movement system?

I havn't read the MT starship combat system as closely as the MT personal combat system - but it looks to be a task based version of HG. All the crunchyness one might require but still a bit too abstract like HG.

I have a copy of Brilliant Lances - but, like Power Projection, it looks more like a game in it's own right than a space combat system that will integrate well with the roleplaying side of things. I plan on using the hex map and counters from BL as I think they will fit the bill until I get some of the RAFM minis.

Again I think I'm leaning towards the MT system... but I also want to keep my hexmap.

Okay I'll wrap this copy of War & Pieces up:

I *know* trying to satisfy both the grogs and the newbs is going to be a challenge - but I think this group is going to be very interesting from a roleplaying standpoint. We're not wargaming here so combat is just a means to an end.

I definitely want personal combat that is sufficiently 'realistic' (read: leathal) to maintain that Traveller "don't F*#$ with the man with the gun" feel - my grogs are mostly from a D&D background and I want them to know they ain't in fantasy land no more.

Starship combat can't be of the "Zaaap - you're dead" variety, unless they're foolish enough to take a Scout Courier against a Cruiser. I'm into the hex map thing but I could see myself dropping it for an abstract system that roleplays well.

Thanks in advance for your opinions - I'm sure there's no easy answer here but with so many options to choose from I'd appreciate the wisdom of those with more experience.

--Michael

 

[T. Foster]

Unfortunately, the one system you apparently don't have is also by far the best (AHL). It's both simpler and more realistic than the Book 1/Snapshot system. Striker is basically the same system as AHL but focused on minis instead of AHL's boardgame/grid movement rules. MT is pretty close too but has too many fiddly details (the arcane Interrupts rules, all the in-game multiplication and division in the penetration/damage rules) to be really playable. I never got a handle on TNE combat, ACQ I still haven't seen (but I know it's based on the T4 system, which I didn't like).

So, unless you want to buy the reprint volume just to get AHL, I'd suggest using Striker. Ignoring all the extra rules for orders and spotting and vehicles and indirect fire and other things you wouldn't normally need in a small-scale man-to-man engagement the fundamental system is very simple:

Measure range to target (Striker ranges are in scale cm, multiply by 10 to get meters)
Determine range (effective, long, extreme)
Roll to hit (eff=8+, long=10+, ext=12+) modified by skill, autofire, target cover/evasion
Roll on Damage table (+wpn pen, -target armor)
Apply wound effects (if LW -1 DM on future actions, check for Stun; if MW hors de combat; if Dead, Dead)

And that's it -- everything else in AHL is just movement rules and special cases (melee, explosions, multiple targets in danger space, etc.).

Edited to add: for ship combat I've never used it that much so I can't really comment, but generally I'd say Mayday (which is essentially Book 2 with a hex-grid) is the best choice. HG and MT are too abstract, Brilliant Lances is way too complicated. I know there are various house-kludged systems on the 'net for incorporating HG's more advanced weaponry into Book 2/Mayday.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by theSea:

Hi all --

Hi, for the ship combat part you can check out related discussions here and here where I throw in my own vote for an excellent system that should be easily adapted to most of the Traveller versions. It's "The Role-Playing Space Combat System" put out as a free for use download (pdf available here ) for T4. Copyright 1996 by Joseph E. Walsh. Collaboration by Eris Reddoch, Guy "Wildstar" Garnett (who did the great QSDS, also a download there), and Allen Shock. Though I never gave it a thorough playing I recall it worked great in the solo test run through.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
For personal Combat i cheat i work out what the players need to hit based on range target and any mods i like to through in and tell them what they need to hit, if they hit the roll damage.
This speeds the game up and if they are doing baddly you can fuddge the figures without it looking like your cheating.
For starship combat i like Gurps Traveller it has hex grid and vectored movement, but i still use ships designed in T20, you just change the scale.
The one thing i didnt like about Gurps was that you can only fire a spinal mount down a hex row (this makes it almost impossible to hit anyone with it, so i changed it to 60 deg infront of the ship) Basicaly the hex edge infront of the ships facing.
Hope this dosn't confuse you more.
BYE.
One more entry in the great soc race.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I have to agree with T. Foster on the AHL/Striker rules. Our group ran it for years quite satifactorally.

We had two "house rules, though.
1) Max damage + after armor was subtracted was the number of dice damage from Book 1 or 4. (so a Gauss rifle will punch a hole in an unarmored man instead of blowing him apart).
2) At less than 1/2 the effective range roll 6+ to hit instead of 8+

For ship-to-ship combat I preferred Mayday with High Guard weapons and damage. Few players had enough patience for that so we usually ended up straight High Guard combat.

 

[saulweaver]

High Guard and modified Striker worked great for us.

 

[kaladorn]

On a related note, I play MT but I'm unhappy with the MT abstract combat system, but I do want to use the MT materials and ship designs. Anyone have any thoughts on how to graft vector movement and some sort of sensible initiative (as opposed to one ship move and shoot, then the next) onto MT?

I've been looking at Brilliant Lances from TNE, but I've hit several issues:

1) The active/passive thing has *vastly* changed - in MT, passives waaaay outrange actives. In BL (probably more realistic, or not depending on which modern space scientist I talk to), passives are outranged by actives. That's a huge difference. And how to convert?

2) You don't have 'fire directors' in MT, though I'm working on a computer model based hack to produce an MFD number for MTBL.

3) Of course, the skill tests need to be re-evaluated into MT terms. But I have a BITS skill conversion table that's helping that.

In the long run, I like BL combat, but hate the rest of TNE so want to find a way to graft BL or BL like combat (vector movement, orders/decision making, etc) onto MT and use (mostly) the existing ship stats.

 

[William]

As with everything, it depends

I personally like the T4 system - fast, simple, task based. The flex vs rigid armor rule was a vast improvement as well. MT's idea of penitration (via AHL and Striker) was interesting, but didn't help much in the end. It's very good for typical quick and dirty PC starport fights.

OTOH, ACQ comes out if it's important to the story. The great thing about ACQ is that once your players have lost enough characters, they will start behaving like people in real combat rather than like typical PCs. Having done my time in the Infantry, I consider this a good thing.

For starship combat, Mayday 4.1 from the BITS website ( http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Acrobat/MayDay.pdf) is closest to what I want at this point, though I may end up hacking up my copy of Brillant Lances at some point for T4.x compatability.

You will note that I'm sticking to T4 and T4 derived systems. I've found that underneith the IG disaster there is a really good rule set hiding there. If you get a chance, check it out. You might be surprised. (Just don't pay too much...)

 

[Falkayn]

OK, partly to buck the trend, but partly because its what I think, I'd say go back to T20.

Your two grognards understand T20 it seems, so they can help handhold the newbies during character creation. The T20 personal combat system works like a charm (v. deadly), and if you're not happy with the starship combat rules there are a variety of other rules out there for d20 (Star Wars has good ones) - and besides, if combat is not a big deal it alsmost doesn't matter how much you abstract this part of the game.

I find converting stuff to a house system, or a non-standard CT/MT system to be just as hard as doing it to d20. Besides most Traveller adventures are about the plot, the situation and the characters' personalities and very little about the actual game stats (although MT does have more of thst sort of stuff).

But feel free to ignore this advice ...

 

[robject]

As Falkayn said, the rules are less important than the game. However, like T. Foster, if I had my 'druthers, I'd use something like AHL.


Effective range: average task
Long range: one task level harder
Extreme range: two task levels harder

Target in cover/evading: one task level harder
Autofire: one task level harder
</font>

• Multiple targets: one task level harder, divide damage by number of targets, roll for hit per target?</font>

+DM Weapon skill
+DM Dex, or +DM Str if autofire (*)
(or something like that)

Wound index = (damage + pen - armor) (x2 if autofire?)

If one was to use CT damage numbers (blades cause up to 3D, and small firearms cause up to 4D damage, don't they?), one would have to at least make a reasonable, first-pass estimation of woundings...

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Wounds Wound Index ranges Note
--------- ------------------ ------------------
None 0 or less Target is amused
Light 1-9 -1DM; Check for Stun
Medium 10-19 Disabled for the rest of combat
Dead 20+ Dead
</pre>[/QUOTE]It's probably wrong, but it has very nice breakpoints.

A system like this could probably also be adapted to wounds sustained during ship combat, such as if the engines take a hit while the engineer's working on them.


(*) It might actually be nice for a character with poor dexterity to nonetheless be able to wipe out bad guys by simply aiming a gun at full-auto via brute force.

 

[robject]

I tried this out with two favorite characters, sort of an "on the fly" playtest you understand. Here's how it fell out:

Examples use the MegaTraveller task system, more or less.


Example 1:

Boomer, Str 5, Dex 10, wearing cloth armor (r1), with Shotgun-2 (p1).
Kira, Str 10, Dex 5, wearing combat armor (r5), with SMG-4 (p2).
Range: effective for both.
Both players are taking cover.


Boomer fires first, a formidable task (11+), DM+2 (Dex), DM+2 (Skill).
He rolls a 12, easily a hit.
Wound rating is 16 points + 1 for penetration - 5 for armor = 12.
Kira is disabled.
Average task roll fails -> Kira is unconscious.


Now, if Kira fired first:


Kira fires on full auto, an impossible task (15+), DM+2 (Str), DM+4 (Skill).
She rolls a 9. 9+6 = 15, a hit.
Wound rating is (5 + 2 - 1) x 2 = 12.
Boomer is disabled.
Average task roll succeeds -> Boomer is still conscious.


If Boomer has psionic powers, he'd better use them now.


Example 2:

Boomer, Dex 10, cloth armor (r1), Laser Pistol-2 (p3, 4d6).
Kira, Dex 5, combat armor (r5), Elephant Gun-2 (p5, 8d6).
Long range. Boomer has taken cover. Kira's out in the open.

Boomer fires first.
Kira is not hiding. The task is average (7+).
The range is long. Task is increased to formidable (11+).
DM+4 (Dex,Skill).
He rolls a 9 + 4 = 13, a hit.
Wounding = (10 + 3 - 5) = 8, light wounds. DM-1 for Kira's tasks.
Stun is an average task: Kira is not stunned.

Kira fires.
Boomer is hiding. The task is formidable (11+).
The range is fine for her elephant gun, no difficulty increase.
DM+2 (Skill).
She rolls a 7 + 2 ( -1 DM ) = 8, a miss.

Boomer fires again, same setup.
He rolls 6 + 4 = 10, a miss.

Kira fires again, same setup. Another miss.

Boomer rolls 10 + 4 = 14, a hit.
Wounding = (12 + 2 - 5) = 9, light wounds. Another DM-1 to Kira.
Boomer wins the stun roll: Kira is stunned and cannot fire this round.

Boomer rolls 5 + 4 = 9, a miss.

Kira rolls 4 + 2 ( -2 DM ) = 4, a miss.

Boomer rolls 5 again.

Kira elects to evade and dive for cover.

Boomer's task now increases to staggering (15+).
He rolls 8 + 4 = 12, a miss.

Kira rolls 7, a miss.
Boomer rolls 10, a miss.
Kira rolls 4.
Boomer rolls 8.

Finally, Kira rolls a 12. 12 + 2 - 2 = 12, a hit.
This will probably kill Boomer.
Wounding = (36 + 5 - 1) = 40 points. Very, very dead.

Boomer is a smear of grease on the floor.
Kira limps off to find a bar.


Summary:

I'm going to think about ways to add a primitive Strike Rank. Maybe based on weapon mass. (Weapon mass in kg = CT weapon cost/1000 = Strike Rank). If weapons have the same strike rank, the "lighter" one is the tiebreaker? Thus the knife always strikes first...

 

[Masconi]

Hello there!

For some reasons I like the Book 1/Snapshot rules, because 'light wound, serious wound, dead' is in my opinion not enough for an rpg.

Maybe you are interested in a full-conversion mod of the Book 1/Snapshot combat system I made for the turn-based wargame construction kit 'The War Engine'.
The mod is available as a free download (but one needs the basic TWE program in order to play).

I'm game mastering a classic Traveller campaign and we use the mod for all indoor/aboard starship combats.
One advantage of the conversion is true hidden movement and AI play for the foes.

Fred