Breakout Points

[Gadrin]

or Deep Space jump points...

a reference to these were recently provided to me over on the GURPS boards from p112-113 in the Traveller Adventure, thanks to daryen.

I think I remember hearing a discussion on them years in the past.

How do you handle them in your TU:

Are they common ? (anyone can do it!)
Do you assign a specific skill level to be able to execute jumping to one ?
Do you require a significant amount of prep to be able to execute the maneuver? (not just let's do it!)

just interested in hearing your thoughts about the subject.

 

[far-trader]

I'm a bit of a heretic (though I'd argue that the deep space jump crowd are the heretics ) and have always felt that the intent was that jumps only precipitated upon a gravity well.

I think I decided this a long long time ago, the first time our group rolled a misjump (soon after the first LBBs hit the shelves) and it ended in an empty hex. "Everybody's dead, roll new characters."

We changed it to a hex with an actual system instead.

If you look at the rules, and read between the lines, there's no reason to use deep space jumps and little to support the idea that it is possible.

So MTU is solidly grounded (pun intended) in a jump requires a gravity well* to precipitate.

* noting that said gravity well only need be big enough to influence the ship jumping, and if making a controlled jump sufficiently well known for a plot to be computed, which could cover the suggested deep space breakout points ...ahhh, I see the gears turning in your mind already

So to answer the points:

Are they common ? (anyone can do it!)

No, not common, and typically military secrets. There may be some rogue points (pirates and such) but for the most part a very small select group know them.

Do you assign a specific skill level to be able to execute jumping to one ?

Just a normal jump task, if you have the data. Getting the data, that's the tricky bit. And if it's wrong, you misjump...

Do you require a significant amount of prep to be able to execute the maneuver? (not just let's do it!)

Nope, just the same as a normal jump.

 

[aramis]

I allow jumps to any hex. They're normal.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

The hard part is hitting a *specific point* in an empty hex (if required, eg for refuelling).

 

[Gadrin]

I'm a bit of a heretic (though I'd argue that the deep space jump crowd are the heretics ) and have always felt that the intent was that jumps only precipitated upon a gravity well.

so in your interpretation would artificial gravity wells (since almost any starship or space station has an internal g-net) pull ships out of jump ?

or do you rely on a minimum mass regardless of the presence of artificial gravity ?

I was working on a scenario where Suerrat scientists who are specialists in artificial gravity/contra-gravity (according to Gurps Interstellar Wars) are developing a gravity ripple com device. Since gravity penetrates into jump-space it can be used as a way to comm with ships in jump (albeit one way for the moment). it has the nasty side effect of sometimes precipitates ships out of jump (a little bug they're working out). Obviously pirates would find this device of tremendous use -- or the IN for that matter.

obviously the ship that's in jump, their internal g-net, doesn't affect their own jump. I'm just trying to decide how to make it so that it doesn't happen too much by accident; and yet still have a half-way believable plot.

back to deep space jumps...

also, whether a space station set in deep-space (empty hex) with it's own internal gravity net active could be targeted, since in effect a ship with a 1G net might have the same signature as a planet, minus the actual mass.

 

[spank]

The Hard Part....

would seem to be determining where exactly you have jumped to, and deciding how to get from there to where you want to go.
As an example, you have jumped to a point halfway between two stars that are J3 and wish to continue on. You are not actually halfway between, but .53 of the way, when you plot a jump to move you the same distance you end up past the star by .06 the distance. Not a large margin, but that is .06*3 Parsecs, a mere 1.76 trillion kilometers off course.
Or suppose you a 1 degree out of a perfect line between the two stars,
when you arrive you will be 1.17 trillion KM off course. this may sound like alot but it is really only .12 lightyears so help is closer than you think. Really.

 

[Plankowner]

I always used the same idea as Far Trader. The Traveller literature seems to indicate that anyone can do it any time. I think limiting jumps to PLANETARY or larger Gravity makes space a bit grainy and requires ships to "go around" if they have short jumps, but ships with longer legs can jump across. If you allow empty space jumps, then rifts and other "gaps" in the stars mean nothing. A Jump 1 ship can cross the same rifts as a Jump 6 ship, or a Jump 8 ship. It just takes longer... I always thought that was a bit counter to the idea of the Jump Drive.

Accuracy of a Jump is 3000KM, so whether you jump into an empty hex or to a planet/star, it is the same accuracy and the same difficulty.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

No, not common, and typically military secrets. There may be some rouge points (pirates and such) but for the most part a very small select group know them.

I really don't see where you get off implying such things about pirtes. Just because they wear earrings (Aaaarrrggghhh!) doesn't mean they're not manly - well, the ones that are men, anyway... the others might be Vargry or whatnot. I mean, c'mon, FT. That's really a low comment to make....

so in your interpretation would artificial gravity wells (since almost any starship or space station has an internal g-net) pull ships out of jump ?

Only out to the same distance (something over 100 Ds, obviously) that a planetary system would affect things.

In one of MTU there was a hi-TL polity that was experimenting with jump conduits (jump engine at both ends, linked to create a tunnel you could travel). They found it wouldn't work, as both ends disappeared into J-space (you couldn't keep either end "open"). However, because of the gravitics involved, it did cause ships to precipitate out of jump when they reached a certain distance from it. So, they set up a pattern of them as a J-space barrier to incursions. Yeah, you could go around, but you had to know they were there to start with... :devil:

 

[spank]

accuracy

The accuracy might be 3000 km, but if you don't aim it properly you will still miss. I think the existance of jump tapes shows the need to know exactly where you are going both in terms of distance and heading. If you scew either one up even by a small margin, big miss.

 

[Captain Midnight]

I think limiting jumps to PLANETARY or larger Gravity makes space a bit grainy and requires ships to "go around" if they have short jumps, but ships with longer legs can jump across. If you allow empty space jumps, then rifts and other "gaps" in the stars mean nothing. A Jump 1 ship can cross the same rifts as a Jump 6 ship, or a Jump 8 ship. It just takes longer...

It also requires some way to get more fuel -- either you carry it with you (in which case you're setting out in a ship that's mostly fuel tank), or you bring a tanker along with you to refuel partway through the trip (in which case, you have to figure out what to do with the tanker), or you count on finding a fuel source somewhere out there (in which case, you'd better have some clues beforehand).

I always figured that if a ship could intentionally arrive at a point in space outside the 100-diameter limit, that they could arrive pretty much anywhere else they wanted to that was outside the limit. If you can arrive 200 diameters away, why not 200,000,000 diameters?

 

[far-trader]

I really don't see where you get off implying such things about pirtes. Just because they wear earrings (Aaaarrrggghhh!) doesn't mean they're not manly - well, the ones that are men, anyway... the others might be Vargry or whatnot. I mean, c'mon, FT. That's really a low comment to make....

Arrr, he gots me dead ta rites. I could say it were a simple slip but that'd be a lie...

(edited the offending remark thanks for the catch)

 

[Faldialwadi]

posted by Plankowner: I think limiting jumps to PLANETARY or larger Gravity makes space a bit grainy and requires ships to "go around" if they have short jumps, but ships with longer legs can jump across. If you allow empty space jumps, then rifts and other "gaps" in the stars mean nothing. A Jump 1 ship can cross the same rifts as a Jump 6 ship, or a Jump 8 ship. It just takes longer...

GT: Alien Races 2, page 20 - In [Imperial -1044], one of the Cisrift clans was persuaded by a charismatic explorer to build a long-range survey craft capable of five successive Jump-1s. He led it on a three-year mission across the Great Rift, where it found a viariety of unclaimed worlds in the Trojan Reach.

This is the J-5 route in Aslan territory. Unless nearly every hex is populated with a dark body generating a gravity well, then mid-space jumps are possible.

 

[Gadrin]

I think using the Aslan as the pioneers could be viable. I just wish we could come up with an in-game mechanic to base it on.

We could say something like: the mass detector that normally detects a gravity well and then shuts down the jump in an orderly manner (like MS windows ) was simply spoofed when our engineers hooked the detector to our internal g-net...in other words it thought there was a planet and it shut down without misjumping. We happened to be in an empty hex. We then shuttled fuel from our extra stores into the tanks, did our maintenance, while our navigator made the jump back to the original system which had a planetary gravity well. we hooked the mass detector back up and prepared for what was now a standard jump. (testing this by using J-1 to an empty hex next to a system hex. if it doesn't work the test craft has low berth capabilties and enough fuel to accel back to civilization and the crew goes into cryo-sleep in an effort to survive...)

in other words no one thought of this before and it more or less works as advertised <ducks for cover>

we can dress it up nicer, but it might be a plausible explanation. we could also do the: at the same time in the Imperium...

 

[Whipsnade]

This is the J-5 route in Aslan territory. Unless nearly every hex is populated with a dark body generating a gravity well, then mid-space jumps are possible.

Faldialwadi,

Mid-space jumps have always been possible in Traveller, from the very beginning of the rules and from the beginning of the setting's in-game history. Mass percipatation had never been a requirement in any version of Traveller until the release of Interstellar Wars.

Sadly, GT:ISW's brown dwarf boobery is the third eye in the forehead of what is otherwise an excellent book. The authors felt compelled for wahtever reason to provide a solution to a problem that wasn't a problem at all and their poorly thought out solution was a horrible mistake.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Gallowglacht]

Why? I like the brown dwarf boobery. They are out there, have mass for those that think they need it and still give you the option of closing off hexes on the map if you dont want to allow jumps a certain way ("sorry, no brown dwarf in that hex").



*hehehe boobery*

 

[Gadrin]

Well you have to love Traveller -- warts and all -- right ?

 

[Plankowner]

I apologize if my earlier post wasn't clear...

IMTU I use Jump Precipitation. in the OTU, there is no requirement for a mass at the end of the Jump. This Section of the forum is IN MY TRAVELLER UNIVERSE. Sorry I wasn't clear (Bill Cameron don't kill me!)

Regarding carrying fuel for successive jumps: 5 Jump-1s cost you 50% fuel. 1 Jump-5 costs you 50% Fuel.

The only difference is PP fuel and Life Support (and time of course). A Jump-1 Ship can theortically go anywhere a higher jump ship can go, it just takes longer.

Personally, I DON'T like that idea, so I have always used the requirement for Mass (planetary at a minimum) to come put of Jump. IMTU. I based my Jump experience a LOT on CJ Cherryh's work and her "Union-Alliance" universe in particular. Jump is NOT FUN IMTU.

 

[Gallowglacht]

Not familiar with that universe but I like new ideas.
Share an example or two?

 

[Jame]

or Deep Space jump points...
Are they common ? (anyone can do it!)
Do you assign a specific skill level to be able to execute jumping to one ?
Do you require a significant amount of prep to be able to execute the maneuver? (not just let's do it!)

Anyone can perform a deep space jump. However, the stricture requiring actual Astrogation skill, or really good software still applies - you do need some sort of astrogator to do it, but the only real preparation you need aside from that are a nav-computer and a nav-program.

My group has done deep space jumping fairly consistently, actually.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

I'm a bit of a heretic (though I'd argue that the deep space jump crowd are the heretics ) ...

No, no. We're the fundamentalists.

was working on a scenario where Suerrat scientists who are specialists in artificial gravity/contra-gravity (according to Gurps Interstellar Wars) are developing a gravity ripple com device. Since gravity penetrates into jump-space it can be used as a way to comm with ships in jump (albeit one way for the moment). it has the nasty side effect of sometimes precipitates ships out of jump (a little bug they're working out). Obviously pirates would find this device of tremendous use -- or the IN for that matter.

Only if they can find a ship in jump space in the first place. Canonically, that can't be done (although if you can send bottle-messages to ships in jump IYTU, then I suppose you're halfway there).

This technology sounds more useful as a deep space jump precipitation device. Assuming, of course, that the Ziru Sirka even allows the research to go forward in the first place; are you sure the patent implications for this device been thoroughly vetted with the Bureaus?

also, whether a space station set in deep-space (empty hex) with it's own internal gravity net active could be targeted, since in effect a ship with a 1G net might have the same signature as a planet, minus the actual mass.

In short, no; at least not in regards to interstellar distances. You need at least 3000 kilometers/parsec leeway for the ship to hit it, and that assumes the station is absolutely immobile at its point in spacetime. Jump technology just isn't accurate enough to make the hit on such a tiny gravity well otherwise, unless your attempting a microjump.

Accuracy of a Jump is 3000KM, so whether you jump into an empty hex or to a planet/star, it is the same accuracy and the same difficulty.

Well, it's 3000km (per parsec), plus up to 25 hours random fudging on arrival time. That can make a pretty big difference in a universe where objects (like Terra) have a 100 diameter gravity target of 1.3 million kilometers and an average orbital velocity of 107000km/hr.