Rules Only: Book 5 clarification needed.
- Thread starter yannir
- Start date
Oh sorry. Backup systems come from Adventure 5: Trillion Credit Squadron. In the rules and rulings section. Basically drives, computers, and screens can have backups that come into operation if the primary gets damaged. The rules say they don't consume energy or fuel but don't cover crew requirements.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Which is...
the back up systems require their own crew.
the back up systems require their own crew.
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They do? Even if powered down?
I mean, simply, where does this really take place. Engineering systems? (i.e. redundant power, m-drive, and j-drive?) Do those simply boost the engineering volume from which crew is calculated? Computers don't require crew. There's no such thing as "back up weapons".
But, you should be able to have a "back up pinnace" but only a single flight crew, yes? Or does that not make any sense either?
Anything else I'm missing?
I mean, simply, where does this really take place. Engineering systems? (i.e. redundant power, m-drive, and j-drive?) Do those simply boost the engineering volume from which crew is calculated? Computers don't require crew. There's no such thing as "back up weapons".
But, you should be able to have a "back up pinnace" but only a single flight crew, yes? Or does that not make any sense either?
Anything else I'm missing?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
There are many things in the Traveller errata that should be ignored. This is one of them.
It is a silly reality ... however it is a correct interpretation of the RULES AS WRITTEN [which is what Errata is all about ... clarifying the DESIGNER's intent and correcting typos, not creating what the rules SHOULD HAVE BEEN). Book 5 says crew is per "installed" units. If it is "installed", then the rules say it should count. The other option is a spare PP in the cargo hold that you can swap out after the battle (not installed).
I agree that it is a bad rule. I would ignore it IMTU, too. However that should probably not be errata.
[I am starting to see the difference after many a beating over the subject.]
If I am in battle and the Starboard Pinnace is destroyed, so the Captain orders the Port Pinnace (the backup) launched immediately instead, then it will need a Flight Crew already aboard and the "backup" already pre-flighed so it is ready for immediate operation.
If the Starboard Pinnace is destroyed and the captain orders the spare pinnace in the cargo hold fueled, moved into launch position, manned with the flight crew and warmed up to launch ... that is not "immediately available as a backup" (it will take time).
IMHO, the INTENT dictates the crew need ... and the intent of the LBB5 "crew" is "immediate operation in combat". In a MERCHANT SHIP, a "spare" (no crew) is more accurate than a "backup" (crewed).
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Think of it this way.
You know how LBB5.80 organizes weapons into batteries ... and there's a formula that determines how many batteries can be brought to bear in a single combat round?
Assume that all of the batteries that can bear are the "active" weapons and the batteries that are not being brought to bear are "backups" during each combat round.
Do you provide crews to ALL of the batteries ... or just the batteries capable of bearing each round onto a target?
Short answer is that ALL batteries get crews, regardless of whether or not they can be brought to bear on a target in any given specific combat round.
Why?
Because until the shooting starts, you don't know which batteries are going to need to be brought to bear onto target, so you provide crews to ALL batteries, not just the ones that can bear on target each combat round.
The same principle applies to all departments in terms of crew complement.
It's why Mr. Sulu says, "all phaser banks, manned and ready" even if not all phaser banks are going to be used in an encounter.
As a Referee, the way I would rule this mindset of "only man what you're going to use" such that any kind of "crew movement to backup systems" will require 2 combat rounds (1 to move, 1 to power up). If you want the backups to provide "uninterrupted service" then the backup systems require crews for them that are NOT "held in common" with the main systems.
A backup/auxiliary control bridge requires its own crew. You can't just assume the "main" bridge officers will be working both locations simultaneously.
Pretty simple, really.
You know how LBB5.80 organizes weapons into batteries ... and there's a formula that determines how many batteries can be brought to bear in a single combat round?
Assume that all of the batteries that can bear are the "active" weapons and the batteries that are not being brought to bear are "backups" during each combat round.
Do you provide crews to ALL of the batteries ... or just the batteries capable of bearing each round onto a target?
Short answer is that ALL batteries get crews, regardless of whether or not they can be brought to bear on a target in any given specific combat round.
Why?
Because until the shooting starts, you don't know which batteries are going to need to be brought to bear onto target, so you provide crews to ALL batteries, not just the ones that can bear on target each combat round.
The same principle applies to all departments in terms of crew complement.
It's why Mr. Sulu says, "all phaser banks, manned and ready" even if not all phaser banks are going to be used in an encounter.
As a Referee, the way I would rule this mindset of "only man what you're going to use" such that any kind of "crew movement to backup systems" will require 2 combat rounds (1 to move, 1 to power up). If you want the backups to provide "uninterrupted service" then the backup systems require crews for them that are NOT "held in common" with the main systems.
A backup/auxiliary control bridge requires its own crew. You can't just assume the "main" bridge officers will be working both locations simultaneously.
Pretty simple, really.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The batteries bearing rule is another stupidity in a universe where ships can roll about their long axis without the crew even noticing thanks to acceleration compensation.
A small maintenance crew for back up systems yes, a full extra crew, no.
A small maintenance crew for back up systems yes, a full extra crew, no.
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
It is certainly out there, in terms of good, honest, workin' man physics, but I would draw the line at calling it outright 'stupidity':
I am not saying that this solves the issue. And I am also willing to agree that this creates waaaaaay more questions than it answers. But it is a germ of an idea about how to get 'er done. And certainly by the 54th Century they'll have a better notion as to whether this is actual physics or Star Wars woo.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
57th, the Third Imperium is the 57th century 
If negative mass can be harnessed for acceleration compensation starting at TL8 then there a whole lot more things that could be done with it. Warp drives and wormholes immediately spring to mind.
If negative mass can be harnessed for acceleration compensation starting at TL8 then there a whole lot more things that could be done with it. Warp drives and wormholes immediately spring to mind.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It does explain why there are so few designs of warships with back up systems. For a little more credit you get two ships instead of one.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Right.
The "backup system(s)" are built into sister ships.
And guess what ... they need crews too ...
The should require some, but not full additiional. You still have to keep them in good nick.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
A) There's no room. Warships are tightly packed, a backup power plant would be way too expensive in fighting power. Making room would make the ships much bigger, hence more expensive, hence fewer, or less capable...
B) You basically only need backup systems to survive meson hits, but at high tech that will kill the ship anyway... Say TL-12 is a different matter with only Meson C guns or so. An extra set of computer, screens, and crew will significantly increase the chance of surviving a meson hit and is rather affordable for large ships, much cheaper than a meson gun.
So, spare systems are reserved for cheap systems at lower TLs, unless you are way out of reach of your supply chain, see Leviathan.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
The way that fixed tonnage and percentile tonnage components interacts, a warship with an extra components gets exponentially larger and more expensive. Take a simple (bad) light cruiser:
[SPOILER="Design"]
[/SPOILER]
Now add a spare power plant and make the ship bigger to accommodate it:
[SPOILER="Design"]
[/SPOILER]
Do you want one cruiser w/ extra PP or two better¹ cruisers with a few destroyers tossed in for good measure?
¹ Better as they are more difficult to hit, because of the smaller size (code K).
Code:
CL-K336EJ3-449900-230J9-0 MCr 10 569 15 000 Dton
bearing F FF 11 Crew=180
batteries F FF 11 TL=15
Cargo=231 Fuel=6702 EP=2202 Agility=6
Code:
Dual Occupancy 231 13 211
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Part Streaml Custom K 15 000
Configuration Cylinder 3 1 500
Scoops Partial 15
Armour 4 4 750 525
Jump Drive 3 1 600 2 400
Manoeuvre D 6 1 2 550 1 275
Power Plant 14 1 2 202 6 606
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-3, 4 weeks 3 2 202
Purifier 1 101 1
Bridge 1 300 75
Computer m/9fib J 1 26 200
Staterooms 4 16 2
Staterooms, Half 176 352 44
Cargo 231
Demountable Tanks J-3 1 4 500 5
Spinal Meson J J 1 1 000 400
Bay Missile, 50 t 9 1 50 13
Single Turret Pulse 2 15 15 8
Single Turret Plasma 3 15 30 23
Triple Turret Sand 4 15 15 11
Nuclear Damper 9 1 20 50
Meson Screen 9 1 40 60
Nominal Cost MCr 13 211,26 Sum: 231 13 211
Class Cost MCr 2 774,36 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 10 569,01
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 10
Passengers Mid 0 180 Engineers 54
Low 0 Gunners 71
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 45
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0Now add a spare power plant and make the ship bigger to accommodate it:
Code:
CL-L336BJ3-449900-230J9-0 MCr 25 447 29 000 Dton
bearing E EE 11 Crew=300
batteries F FF 11 TL=15
Cargo=314 Fuel=11994 EP=3294 Agility=6
Code:
Dual Occupancy 314 31 808
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Part Streaml Custom L 29 000
Configuration Cylinder 3 2 900
Scoops Partial 29
Armour 4 4 1 450 1 015
Jump Drive 3 1 1 160 4 640
Manoeuvre D 6 1 4 930 2 465
Power Plant 11 2 6 588 19 764
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-3, 4 weeks 3 3 294
Purifier 1 180 2
Bridge 1 580 145
Computer m/9fib J 1 26 200
Staterooms 4 16 2
Staterooms, Half 296 592 74
Cargo 314
Demountable Tanks J-3 1 8 700 9
Spinal Meson J J 1 1 000 400
Bay Missile, 50 t 9 1 50 13
Single Turret Pulse 2 15 15 8
Single Turret Plasma 3 15 30 23
Triple Turret Sand 4 15 15 11
Nuclear Damper 9 1 20 50
Meson Screen 9 1 40 60
Nominal Cost MCr 31 808,25 Sum: 314 31 808
Class Cost MCr 6 679,73 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 25 446,60
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 15
Passengers Mid 0 300 Engineers 127
Low 0 Gunners 71
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 87
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0Do you want one cruiser w/ extra PP or two better¹ cruisers with a few destroyers tossed in for good measure?
¹ Better as they are more difficult to hit, because of the smaller size (code K).
