Blue Darrians

[rancke]

Entrope is cold with a very thin atmosphere, so rather than abandoning their domed city where they lived after the Maghiz, they turned to a rouge genetic engineer who creates a stem cell serum that modifes them to a neo-hemocyanin blood so they can continue their existence.

The presence of a rogue genetic engineer who just happened to have a rogue genetic laboratory and the genius to create an entirely new species practically from scratch (and it would amount to that -- I suspect that the amount of unmodified genetic material an organism with hemocyanin blood would have in common with a human would be minuscule) is a rather big camel to swallow. And they wouldn't be continuing their existence, would they? Under conditions helpful to the continued existence of a normal human, hemocyanin would be one quarter as efficient as hemoglobin, so they would have to go out and live in the free nature, wouldn't they? Or rather, their progeny would[*], because changing someone from using hemoglobin to using hemocyanin by retro-virus without destroying their memories isn't geneering, it's fairy-tale magic with 'geeneering' substituting for a magic wand. Brains need blood, you know? And brain cells adapted to the use of hemoglobin isn't going to work well with hemocyanin, so they will all have to be replaced too.

[*] And wouldn't that be an interesting parenting challenge? The first generation of Blue Darrians and their foster parents being unable to survive in the same environment?​

Of course, if their TL16 habitat was failing and they'd lost the ability to keep it in repair, the survivors might want to create a new species to carry on thier legacy. But those TL16 habitats were tough. By the time it starts to fail, many generations would have gone by, and if they've lost the knowledge to keep the habitat running, how have they retained the technology to geneer new species? Assuming the original Darrian explorers would have included a genetic laboratory in the original base design in the first place. And assuming the biosphere is sufficiently developed to support human-sized organisms without technological aid.

One would assume they were not able to maintain their tech level post-Maghiz, same as the rest of the Darrian Colonies, except for very few TL16 items, but this would be in a generational onset.

Your chronology is all over the place, but that might be fixed. So what is the sequence of events? The Maghiz destroys Darrian society completely. The outposts keep up contact for several decades and have a number of ships at their disposal. The people living on Entrope decide not to evacuate. Why? How many are there and what are their living conditions and prospects? A single ship can transport a lot of people in its lifetime, and the outposts have several dozens at their disposal.

Then the colonies decide to mothball their remaining ships and make do on their own. Is this when the Darrians on Entrope decide to create the Blue Darrians? And then what happens?

700 years later the Mirans regain jump capability and recontact the other worlds with Darrian descendants. They don't attack anyone else, so why would they attack the Blue Darrians? Particularily since they're presumably the only survivors on Entrope, being adapted to live in the wild and the habitats having failed. So when and why is the original conflict? And what happens next?


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

AFAIK, brains need oxygen from blood, nor would it be creating a new species ffrom scratch as the master genes are already there. I never said anything about a retro-virus either, my suggestion it is more along the lines of how cord blood is given to leukemia patients to restore their bone marrow. So really all that is being changed is the bone marrow. Different Hemonyacins have different hill coeficients, so the genetic engineer one would assume would create the most efficient to use, maybe even in as much as there still is hemoglobin, just at a lesser level, or even a hybrid hemonyacin/hemoglobin. So there is no reason to think that they couldn't survive in human normal conditions, or it may just be slightly tiring.

I also put the original population at less than 20,000, one city and it's eviorns. Why didn't they just leave? Another good question where there could be multiple rumors.

It could have been just a rogue genetic engineer with a lab ship, doesn't even have to be a Darrian, it could be Moon Base Alpha, who knows what lurks in the depths of time?

Both wars happen before re-contact with Mire; other Darrians do survive in domes on Entrope.

Here is a history of Entrope that works and doesn't change anything that is written before it:

http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller/entrope/history.html

So I put the first war at about 150-200 years post Maghiz, most likely a resource war, which they lose and then another war at about 500 years post Maghiz which they do not necessarily lose, but becomes the impetus to move from Entrope; by 1107 there are few if any Blue Darrians left on Entrope. They are scattered around in various enclaves. I don't see any conflict there. After this they lead a surreptitious existence, so not much is known about them and Darrians would rather forget they even existed.

 

[rancke]

AFAIK, brains need oxygen from blood, nor would it be creating a new species ffrom scratch as the master genes are already there. I never said anything about a retro-virus either, my suggestion it is more along the lines of how cord blood is given to leukemia patients to restore their bone marrow. So really all that is being changed is the bone marrow. Different Hemonyacins have different hill coeficients, so the genetic engineer one would assume would create the most efficient to use, maybe even in as much as there still is hemoglobin, just at a lesser level, or even a hybrid hemonyacin/hemoglobin. So there is no reason to think that they couldn't survive in human normal conditions, or it may just be slightly tiring.

In other words, it's magic.

Or let me put it this way: To an ignorant layman like myself, it sounds like pesudo-scientific gobbledygook. If an educated biologist were to endorse your claims, I'd revise my opinion, but at the moment I consider it pure unadulterated fantasy in SF clothing.

It could have been just a rogue genetic engineer with a lab ship, doesn't even have to be a Darrian, it could be Moon Base Alpha, who knows what lurks in the depths of time?

I get it. It was a Servant of Kruthruth.

Both wars happen before re-contact with Mire; other Darrians do survive in domes on Entrope.

So it was just this one dome that failed? Though it failed slowly enough that the inhabitants had time to develop a "cure" but not slowly enough that they could emigrate to other domes or other worlds.

Here is a history of Entrope that works and doesn't change anything that is written before it:

http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller/entrope/history.html

Not true. The bit about Entrope not having access to any ships is contrary to Darrians. The Darrian outposts stayed in contact for twenty years after the Maghiz [AM8:12]. Frankly, I'm surprised at what Mike has written here. (Hear that, Mike? I'm surprised at ya'! ).

Also, it is contrary to some of the stuff that has been written later. (I know; I wrote some of it for GT). Some people don't accept GT as canon, but others do.

So I put the first war at about 150-200 years post Maghiz, most likely a resource war...

The other Darrians suffer a lack of some crucial resource, something that threaten their very survival enough to make them break their cultural disinclination towards organized warfare, and the one place on Entrope where they can get those resources just happen to be in the Blue Darrian city? What rotten luck!

...which they lose and then another war at about 500 years post Maghiz which they do not necessarily lose, but becomes the impetus to move from Entrope.

Right, because they are adapted to living on Entrope and can expand their population all they like while the other Darrians have to build a new habitat every time they want to increase their population. So naturally the Blue Darrians stay a small group buried in an underground city until they can secretly get hold of a ship and move elsewhere.

By 1107 there are few if any Blue Darrians left on Entrope. They are scattered around in various enclaves. I don't see any conflict there. After this they lead a surreptitious existence, so not much is known about them and Darrians would rather forget they even existed.

I must say, the Blue Darrians would make an excellent unban legend. Urban legends are wonderful. They don't have to make sense. And sometimes people take advantage of urban legends to paint themselves blue and make believe[*].


Hans

[*] Well, they MIGHT!​

 

[Dragoner]

Sometimes urban legends turn out to be true and what did Arthur C Clarke say about magic again? I can assure you what I said about cord blood and master genes is true AFAIK.

I don't know about GT, this is pure CT, truth!

I do say they kept some ships, so meh on that point and as far as their war like attitude, maybe with the hemocyanin they became a bit more "cold-blooded"? lol

I also mentioned their more sinister reputation.

It's the Blue Darrians who start the war as well, these aren't the nice guys. Which could easily explain their lower reproduction as well, sociopaths with a strange biochemistry, why they would probably be just a fotenote in history if I hadn't posted them here for contact.:rofl:

PS the Kruthruth link leads to a login page.

 

[rancke]

I do say they kept some ships, so meh on that point and as far as their war like attitude, maybe with the hemocyanin they became a bit more "cold-blooded"?

But you haven't explained how and why they became Blue Darrians in the first place.

It's the Blue Darrians who start the war as well, these aren't the nice guys.

Not nice isn't a problem. Not logical and counter-canonical is.

PS the Kruthruth link leads to a login page.

Yes, it leads to an article I wrote for JTAS Online about urban legends about Illuminated groups with connections to Regina. If you like, just substitute 'Yaskoydray' for 'Servant of Kruthruth' in my comment, that'll give the same idea.

BTW, a subscription to JTAS Online has to be the best value for money available to Traveller people ATM. You get access to more than a thousand archived articles plus another 150 over the next two years.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Sometimes urban legends turn out to be true and what did Arthur C Clarke say about magic again?

But Traveller TL16 isn't sufficiently advanced.

I can assure you what I said about cord blood and master genes is true AFAIK.

And now you're going to soak me in the eye by revealing that you're a professional biochemist?

I do say they kept some ships, so meh on that point...

If you're going to quote an entire web page to support your argument, be prepared for people assuming that you're quoting the entire web page in support of your argument.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I think one of the Traveller books said that about TL 16; though reading the back of Book 3, the Blue Darrians do fit the spirit of Traveller (because I just read it looking for that quote).

Nope I am not a biochemist, though I did live in an area filled with these genentech firms for about 20 years. I was a civil engineer, but now I am returning to school for computer science. Took plenty of chemistry classes in engineering school, I actually went for mechanical engineering but started as a pre-med but decided against that.

It's a great web page, bravo to him; what is known is known though and what is unknown is unknown. If the Blue Darrians were not well known, then it would not be well known, sine qua non, if they had ships or not.

I think the how's and why's of the Blue Darrians existence has been relatively well explained. It's perfectly logical that they warred upon their kin, they are Humans. It's not logical that humans somehow become overwhelmingly peaceful, any history book shows that or even that aliens took Humans from the earth 300,000 years ago, before Humans even existed? I am very interested in things like the Human Genome project and as far as science can tell, modern humans like you and me are only between 30 and 80 thousand years old. Early hominids even spread pretty far, most likely went extinct and did not follow some parallel evolution and this is 99% most likely how it would have been if these early hominids had been taken from earth.

It is what it is.

Can you explain how the Darrians get pointed ears, how do humans evolve that? Blue Darrian skin colorization is easier.

I plead poor student to the JTAS online, maybe after the beginning of next semester, I'll have the money and do a subscription. Let's just see where all this Traveller stuff takes me.

 

[rancke]

I think one of the Traveller books said that about TL 16; though reading the back of Book 3, the Blue Darrians do fit the spirit of Traveller (because I just read it looking for that quote).

TL 16 isn't that much better than TL 15. The 'magic' tech levels of the Ancients are up between 25 and 35. As for the Spirit of Traveller, I tend to agree; a blue-skinned variant of a human race is perfectly Travellerish. A hemocyanin-blooded version geneered by the Ancients might fly, although the Ancients are getting quite overused and trite by now, and I try hard to use them as little as I possibly can. (Such blue-bloods wouldn't be remotely human, of course, or even Hominid.)

What doesn't agree with canon is self-geneered hemocyanin-blooded Darrians from Entrope.

It's a great web page, bravo to him; what is known is known though and what is unknown is unknown. If the Blue Darrians were not well known, then it would not be well known, sine qua non, if they had ships or not.

Please go back and read that part of the argument again; I really don't feel like recapitulating the whole thing.

I think the how's and why's of the Blue Darrians existence has been relatively well explained.

It hasn't been explained at all. An explanation that raises more questions is not really an explanation.

How and why did the Blue Darrians come to exist in the first place? Adaptation to life on Entrope doesn't work as an explanation unless you can explain why it was needed and how it could work.

It's perfectly logical that they warred upon their kin, they are Humans. It's not logical that humans somehow become overwhelmingly peaceful

The Darrians weren't overwhelmingly peaceful. They just kept their population growth in check and never outstripped their resources; hence a comparative lack of wars and less personal violence than the human average. Remeber those orchards? They were capable of supporting a million people each, yet for 100,000 years the Darrians kept their population down to 100,000 per orchard, and it took them 10,000 years to reach the 100,000 level.

...any history book shows that or even that aliens took Humans from the Earth 300,000 years ago, before Humans even existed?

The Traveller Universe differs in a number of ways from the Real Universe. One of the differences may be that Homo sapiens had already evolved 300,000 years ago in the TU and not in the RU. (I say may, because it's still only a theory that it hadn't in the Real World -- back in 1979 the most popular theory was that they had already evolved by -300,000).

And even if Science does one day prove that in the Real Universe, Archaic Homo sapiens hadn't evolved 300,000 years ago, this is demonstrably not true for the TU.

I am very interested in things like the Human Genome project and as far as science can tell, modern humans like you and me are only between 30 and 80 thousand years old.

Modern Homo sapiens didn't evolve until then, but so what? Two populations both descended from the same species may have diverged into separate species, and some of the known Minor Human Races are no longer Homo sapiens but Homo <something else>. But it's also possible that any two such populations didn't diverge enough to become separate species, and this is the case for a number of known human races. The ones left behind on Earth evolved into Homo sapiens sapiens. The ones on Vland evolved into Homo sapiens vlandensis. The ones on Zdant evolved into Homo sapiens zhodotlas. The ones on Darrian evolved into Homo Sapiens darrianus[*]. And so on and so on.

[*] Funnily enough, Roger Moore said they were called Homo darrianus, but they are demonstrably not a separate species, so that has to be either a mistake or a fallacy.​

Can you explain how the Darrians get pointed ears, how do humans evolve that?

1) Genetic tampering by Onsorik for his own inscrutable reasons.

2) The genes for Stahl's Ear Deformity (pointy ears) becoming spread to the entire population due to low population bottleneck (100 individuals).

Blue Darrian skin colorization is easier.

But not canonical. "Protomelenin skin pigmentation protects Darrians from ultraviolet radiation, without the need for acquiring a tan, from birth. It absorbs UV light without darkening in response and controls vitamin D production in any amount of sunlight. Usual Darrian skin color is golden or grayish tan." [AM8:15]


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

It's someone with pointy ears.

And golden skin and very blond hair - all elven descriptors.

If it walks like a duck and all that...

Elucidate, please.

I can't summarize the gazetteer in a few lines - go download it and read it for yourself.

They left those orchards 100,000 years ago.

and...

I only mentioned the similarities, when they left them is not really relevant.

Except for all the bits that scream "not elves".


Hans

In the physiology section? It all screams D&D/Tolkien elf.

 

[mike wightman]

It's called a retcon. Or possibly the 1.6m is their height when raised on a 1G world; certainly the 2m tall version is specifically that of a Darrian from Darrian.


Hans

I like the second explanation.

The first has been used so many times I get sick of it.

(thought - How come the true evolutionary tree of humanity hasn't been retconned into Traveller but a slight height change for a minor human race has?)

So I offer a third solution - someone made a mistake - again - and as usual we have to make stuff up

 

[mike wightman]

In other words, it's magic.

Or let me put it this way: To an ignorant layman like myself, it sounds like pesudo-scientific gobbledygook. If an educated biologist were to endorse your claims, I'd revise my opinion, but at the moment I consider it pure unadulterated fantasy in SF clothing.

This actually made me laugh out loud.

All of Traveller grav tech is magic, jump drive is magic, psionics is magic, laser and plasma weapons are magic.

We use pseudo-scientific gobbledygook all the time to explain those.

So does that make Traveller a science fantasy game?

Not true. The bit about Entrope not having access to any ships is contrary to Darrians. The Darrian outposts stayed in contact for twenty years after the Maghiz [AM8:12]. Frankly, I'm surprised at what Mike has written here. (Hear that, Mike? I'm surprised at ya'! ).

I like drow elves - what can I say

 

[mike wightman]

TL 16 isn't that much better than TL 15. The 'magic' tech levels of the Ancients are up between 25 and 35. As for the Spirit of Traveller, I tend to agree; a blue-skinned variant of a human race is perfectly Travellerish. A hemocyanin-blooded version geneered by the Ancients might fly, although the Ancients are getting quite overused and trite by now, and I try hard to use them as little as I possibly can. (Such blue-bloods wouldn't be remotely human, of course, or even Hominid.)

What doesn't agree with canon is self-geneered hemocyanin-blooded Darrians from Entrope.

I completely agree.

One comment though - the solomani and the Imperium both genetically modify stuff, the former uplifts animals while the latter will bioengineer humans to make them more suitable for colonising worlds.

It hasn't been explained at all. An explanation that raises more questions is not really an explanation.

How and why did the Blue Darrians come to exist in the first place? Adaptation to life on Entrope doesn't work as an explanation unless you can explain why it was needed and how it could work.

Very good point.

The Darrians weren't overwhelmingly peaceful. They just kept their population growth in check and never outstripped their resources; hence a comparative lack of wars and less personal violence than the human average. Remeber those orchards? They were capable of supporting a million people each, yet for 100,000 years the Darrians kept their population down to 100,000 per orchard, and it took them 10,000 years to reach the 100,000 level.

Now there is a mystery worth investigating - why and how did the Darrians keep their population at around the 100,000 mark for each Orchard?

The Traveller Universe differs in a number of ways from the Real Universe. One of the differences may be that Homo sapiens had already evolved 300,000 years ago in the TU and not in the RU. (I say may, because it's still only a theory that it hadn't in the Real World -- back in 1979 the most popular theory was that they had already evolved by -300,000).

And even if Science does one day prove that in the Real Universe, Archaic Homo sapiens hadn't evolved 300,000 years ago, this is demonstrably not true for the TU.

And could easily be retconned

Modern Homo sapiens didn't evolve until then, but so what? Two populations both descended from the same species may have diverged into separate species, and some of the known Minor Human Races are no longer Homo sapiens but Homo <something else>. But it's also possible that any two such populations didn't diverge enough to become separate species, and this is the case for a number of known human races. The ones left behind on Earth evolved into Homo sapiens sapiens. The ones on Vland evolved into Homo sapiens vlandensis. The ones on Zdant evolved into Homo sapiens zhodotlas. The ones on Darrian evolved into Homo Sapiens darrianus[*]. And so on and so on.

Oddly enough I was just watching a program about the Chinese belief that their branch of humanity split off prior the 'out of africa' theorised migration.

 

[rancke]

All of Traveller grav tech is magic, jump drive is magic, psionics is magic, laser and plasma weapons are magic.

Grav tech is magic, jump drive is magic, psionics is magic, meson beams are magic (How are lassers and plasma weapons magic, BTW?). But they're canonical magic. Their existence are decreed by Word of God.

We use pseudo-scientific gobbledygook all the time to explain those.

Not really. We just say those things exists and then (try to) apply logic to figuring out the ramifications. And the magic is confined to certain parts of the scientific spectrum and a few specific elements of those parts.

So does that make Traveller a science fantasy game?

It's a hard science with a soft center game ;-).

I like drow elves - what can I say

Not you. The Mike (Mike West, a.k.a. Daryen) on whose web site the history of Entrope is posted, leading me to assume that it was he who wrote it. Was it actually you who wrote that?


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Grav tech is magic, jump drive is magic, psionics is magic, meson beams are magic (How are lassers and plasma weapons magic, BTW?). But they're canonical magic. Their existence are decreed by Word of God.

Laser weapons don't work the way Traveller has them working, and plasma weapons as envisioned by Traveller are also a physical impossibility.

Nice invocation of the Gods of Canon

Not really. We just say those things exists and then (try to) apply logic to figuring out the ramifications. And the magic is confined to certain parts of the scientific spectrum and a few specific elements of those parts.

Such as near-c rocks, piracy arguments etc etc.

It's a hard science with a soft center game ;-).

Very nicely put.

Not you. The Mike (Mike West, a.k.a. Daryen) on whose web site the history of Entrope is posted, leading me to assume that it was he who wrote it. Was it actually you who wrote that?


Hans

Ahh, now I understand.

Yes it was Mike West - nothing to do with me.

(I've never really liked the Darrians due to the contrived cop out that makes a TL G world really TL C ish. IMHO if a world is generated as TL G then that is what it is.)

 

[rancke]

The Solomani and the Imperium both genetically modify stuff, the former uplifts animals while the latter will bioengineer humans to make them more suitable for colonising worlds.

Very true. And if the color of the Blue Darrians were supposedly the result of a geneered alternate blue skin pigment, I wouldn't question the means (though I'd still be curious about the motives). But neither the Solomani nor the Imperium change people's blood chemistry by giving blood transfusions or any other means we know of.

Now there is a mystery worth investigating - why and how did the Darrians keep their population at around the 100,000 mark for each Orchard?

"The leaves of the Orchard tree provide an efficient contraceptive when chewed, giving the Darrians an easy way to control their population." [GT:AR5, p. 31]

"Living in the Orchards also gave the Darrians an unusual concept of acceptable standards of living. On the average, a family of four had about 10 Orchard trees at its disposal. Some of these were used to support domesticated animals, but each individual could have at least one room of his own and would never starve as long as he stayed close to home. To a Darrian, going hungry was an unacceptable hardship, a private room for each individual was a necessity, and ample leisure time was a given. This would later influence the settlements of the basins, as only the richest and most bountiful areas was able to support Darrians in the style to which they felt entitled." [ibid.]​

And even if Science does one day prove that in the Real Universe, Archaic Homo sapiens hadn't evolved 300,000 years ago, this is demonstrably not true for the TU.

And could easily be retconned

When and if that day comes, I suppose. But why bother? It wouldn't turn the TU into the RU anyway (the existence of the Ancients is a dead giveaway, IMO ).


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

TL 16 isn't that much better than TL 15. The 'magic' tech levels of the Ancients are up between 25 and 35. As for the Spirit of Traveller, I tend to agree; a blue-skinned variant of a human race is perfectly Travellerish. A hemocyanin-blooded version geneered by the Ancients might fly, although the Ancients are getting quite overused and trite by now, and I try hard to use them as little as I possibly can. (Such blue-bloods wouldn't be remotely human, of course, or even Hominid.)

What doesn't agree with canon is self-geneered hemocyanin-blooded Darrians from Entrope.

My friend, you realize of course that you are creating words, no? When I google "geneered" that the first hits are all from Traveller? TL 15 as it currently stands is magic or fantasy, much less TL 16. Master Genes and Cord Blood Transfusions are hard science, not science fiction, which of course is fantasy. I have not mentioned the Ancients one bit and IMTU the Ancient Ancients are Lovecraftian Ancients ala "At the Mountains of Madness", because that is far more logical than Grandfather, which I only recently learned about. Please explain how these blue bloods are not human? For many Humans have blood variations and even blood disorders like the aforementioned leukemia patients and they remain human.

Canon only states what is, and specifically does not limit what is not as that is left open to the Referee. The only guide after that point becomes logic, or maybe not considering some of stuff I have read.

Please go back and read that part of the argument again; I really don't feel like recapitulating the whole thing.

What part needs to be explained? That they had a few ships?

It hasn't been explained at all. An explanation that raises more questions is not really an explanation.

How and why did the Blue Darrians come to exist in the first place? Adaptation to life on Entrope doesn't work as an explanation unless you can explain why it was needed and how it could work.

It seems to me that you are questioing the fundamentals of the why's and hows of colonization period? Why did the Europeans colonize the Americas?

The why of the Blue Darrian's existence is to survive on the cold and very thin atmospheric conditions of Entrope in the face of failing technology. They knew it would fail and took steps for their future survival, without losing their independence by abandoning their homes.

How? By adapting through genetic modification, a not new theme in science fiction.

The Darrians weren't overwhelmingly peaceful. They just kept their population growth in check and never outstripped their resources; hence a comparative lack of wars and less personal violence than the human average. Remeber those orchards? They were capable of supporting a million people each, yet for 100,000 years the Darrians kept their population down to 100,000 per orchard, and it took them 10,000 years to reach the 100,000 level.

So this somewhat satifies the economic reasons behind conflict (and only somewhat), but what of the social/psychological/biological imperative? War is not an accident of history, war is a part of human nature, pre-dating humans as well if one looks at chimpanzees and bonobos. Even now we are only really discovering the gestalt of war.

The Traveller Universe differs in a number of ways from the Real Universe. One of the differences may be that Homo sapiens had already evolved 300,000 years ago in the TU and not in the RU. (I say may, because it's still only a theory that it hadn't in the Real World -- back in 1979 the most popular theory was that they had already evolved by -300,000).

And even if Science does one day prove that in the Real Universe, Archaic Homo sapiens hadn't evolved 300,000 years ago, this is demonstrably not true for the TU.

Maybe for you this is satisfactory, but for me coming from a scientific background I will try to make the Traveller Universe conform to reality as much as possible. I understand the theories have changed over time and same for the TU versus RU theories could change without it being some universe shattering moment.

Modern Homo sapiens didn't evolve until then, but so what? Two populations both descended from the same species may have diverged into separate species, and some of the known Minor Human Races are no longer Homo sapiens but Homo <something else>. But it's also possible that any two such populations didn't diverge enough to become separate species, and this is the case for a number of known human races. The ones left behind on Earth evolved into Homo sapiens sapiens. The ones on Vland evolved into Homo sapiens vlandensis. The ones on Zdant evolved into Homo sapiens zhodotlas. The ones on Darrian evolved into Homo Sapiens darrianus[*]. And so on and so on.

[*] Funnily enough, Roger Moore said they were called Homo darrianus, but they are demonstrably not a separate species, so that has to be either a mistake or a fallacy.​

The idea of parallel evolution of humans is a fallacy itself according to science and only held on to by nationalists and racists who sine non qua have non-scientific reasons for believing in it. So it does not make for a good scientific argument, it becomes a huge so what. I will politely bow out of any argument for parallel evolution of humanity.

1) Genetic tampering by Onsorik for his own inscrutable reasons.

2) The genes for Stahl's Ear Deformity (pointy ears) becoming spread to the entire population due to low population bottleneck (100 individuals).

I would give this a 50/50, since with going with the genetic bottleneck theory would lead to the idea of even worse deformities IMO.

But not canonical. "Protomelenin skin pigmentation protects Darrians from ultraviolet radiation, without the need for acquiring a tan, from birth. It absorbs UV light without darkening in response and controls vitamin D production in any amount of sunlight. Usual Darrian skin color is golden or grayish tan." [AM8:15]


Hans

The adaptive modification for the use of some Neo-Hemocyanin would not necessarily change any of this, which in itself protomelanin is more fantasy, arguably as much or more than Neo-Hemocyanin. Note the use of the qualifying term "usual" which would not specifically abrogate the existence of Blue Darrians. Particularly so if the module was written from the viewpoint of an Imperial Scout Service report, which may or may not include rumors, nor would it include genetic modifications made out-system in natural conditions.

In conclusion, there is nothing in particular about the Blue Darrians that conflicts with the OTU. Absence of evidence does not provide evidence of absense and otherwise the OTU becomes very limited and not very exciting, which contradicts the philosophy put forth at the end of Book 3.

-Robert

 

[rancke]

My friend, you realize of course that you are creating words, no? When I google "geneered" that the first hits are all from Traveller?

I'm not creating any words (here anyway). The people who wrote the Traveller canon created that one. So I tend to use it when talking about genetic engineering in the Traveller Universe. Just as I use 'anagathics' and not 'anti-agathics' or 'anti-gerone' or 'life pills' or whatever.

TL 15 as it currently stands is magic or fantasy, much less TL 16.

We have pretty extensive descriptions of what technologies are available at which tech levels up to 16 (and somewat less extensive beyond that). These technologies are imaginary, not fantasy. There's a difference that you don't seem to appreciate.

Master Genes and Cord Blood Transfusions are hard science,...

Blood transfusions with substances that won't kill the recipient are hard science. Blood transfusion with hemocyanin compounds that don't kill the recipient is fantasy.

...not science fiction, which of course is fantasy.

No, science fiction is not fantasy. Fantasy is a separate sub-genre of speculative fiction (although there can be overlap in some works; Traveller isn't one of them, though).

"Fantasy is a genre that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, and/or setting." [Wikipedia]​

I have not mentioned the Ancients one bit and IMTU the Ancient Ancients are Lovecraftian Ancients ala "At the Mountains of Madness", because that is far more logical than Grandfather, which I only recently learned about.

What you do in your own TU is your business, and if you want to mix in Lovecraftian monsters (which is a third sub-genre of speculative fiction, btw. -- not science fiction either), you go right ahead. But don't mix it up with a claim that they're compatible with Traveller canon.

Please explain how these blue bloods are not human? For many Humans have blood variations and even blood disorders like the aforementioned leukemia patients and they remain human.

But none of them run around with hemocyanin blood, do they? Every cell of the body would need to be radically different to work with hemocyanin instead of hemoglobin. Radically different cell chemistry means radically different genetic instructions for creating those cells.

Canon only states what is, and specifically does not limit what is not as that is left open to the Referee. The only guide after that point becomes logic, or maybe not considering some of stuff I have read.

Hello there, Pot, I'm Kettle.

What part needs to be explained? That they had a few ships?

That they did not have the alternative of emigrating. Since radically altering their own basic nature would seem to be a remedy of desperation, any reasonable alternative must have been non-existent.

It seems to me that you are questioing the fundamentals of the why's and hows of colonization period? Why did the Europeans colonize the Americas?

Not for the same reason the Darrians sent a few explorers to explore other worlds, that's for sure.

The why of the Blue Darrian's existence is to survive on the cold and very thin atmospheric conditions of Entrope in the face of failing technology. They knew it would fail and took steps for their future survival, without losing their independence by abandoning their homes.

But that solution required that they abandoned their homes anyway, since they would be unable to survive in their old environment. You're postulating that the hemocyanin was used because it would be more efficent than hemoglobin[*]. But is not the case under any conditions that would allow an unaltered human to survive. Under baseline conditions hemocyanin is only one fourth as efficient as hemoglobin.

[*] You're also assuming that ANY amount of efficiency will allow a humanoid body to survive in Entrope's very thin atmosphere, which is a pretty unlikely assumption.​

How? By adapting through genetic modification, a not new theme in science fiction.

But the authors who make use of that theme either use it in a plausible way or get mocked by rabid readers.

So this somewhat satifies the economic reasons behind conflict (and only somewhat), but what of the social/psychological/biological imperative? War is not an accident of history, war is a part of human nature, pre-dating humans as well if one looks at chimpanzees and bonobos. Even now we are only really discovering the gestalt of war.

You're free to try to convince Marc Miller or mongoose Matt that the canonical description of the Darrians is ridiculous and get them to retcon it. But until you succeed, it remains canon. Personally I have no problem with the notion that, absent material needs, a human can sublimate any warlike instincts he has. After all, some humans are able to sublimate their reproductive instincts, surely an even more basic instinct than the warlike one. Come to that, there are a number of human societies that have eshewed violence altogether.

Maybe for you this is satisfactory, but for me coming from a scientific background I will try to make the Traveller Universe conform to reality as much as possible.

Do what you like in your own TU. And feel free to try to convince the rest of us that we're wrong. But don't claim you're following canon unless you are.

The idea of parallel evolution of humans is a fallacy itself according to science and only held on to by nationalists and racists who sine non qua have non-scientific reasons for believing in it. So it does not make for a good scientific argument, it becomes a huge so what. I will politely bow out of any argument for parallel evolution of humanity.

No one is talking parallel evolution here. The postulate is that everybody is descended from the same ancestral species (Homo sapiens antiquus and that those human races who remain Homo sapiens do so because they have not diverged enough to be a different species. All perfectly scientifically sound.

In conclusion, there is nothing in particular about the Blue Darrians that conflicts with the OTU.

Only if we redefine 'The OTU' to mean 'The OTU with the changes Dragoner thinks it needs'.

Which I, for one, won't.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I'm not creating any words (here anyway). The people who wrote the Traveller canon created that one. So I tend to use it when talking about genetic engineering in the Traveller Universe. Just as I use 'anagathics' and not 'anti-agathics' or 'anti-gerone' or 'life pills' or whatever.

That is fine, but you can't mix imaginary terms in with scientific arguments.

We have pretty extensive descriptions of what technologies are available at which tech levels up to 16 (and somewat less extensive beyond that). These technologies are imaginary, not fantasy. There's a difference that you don't seem to appreciate.

This is the primary definition from Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: 1fan·ta·sy
Variant(s): also phan·ta·sy \ˈfan-tə-sē, -zē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural fan·ta·sies
Etymology: Middle English fantasie — more at fancy
Date: 14th century
1 obsolete : hallucination
2 : fancy; especially : the free play of creative imagination
3 : a creation of the imaginative faculty whether expressed or merely conceived: as a : a fanciful design or invention


Imaginary and fantasy are one and the same, Traveller per se is not literature, so it does not fall under the title of speculative fiction.

Blood transfusions with substances that won't kill the recipient are hard science. Blood transfusion with hemocyanin compounds that don't kill the recipient is fantasy.

No, that is incorrect. From the wiki article posted:

The hemocyanin found in Concholepas concholepas blood has immunotherapeutic effects against bladder and prostate cancer. In a research made in 2006 mice were primed with C. concholepas before implantation of bladder tumor (MBT-2) cells. Mice treated with C. concholepas showed significant antitumor effects: prolonged survival, decreased tumor growth and incidence, and lack of toxic effects.[5]

It is very real and if you are using the term in regards to fiction, it would seem to belong more to the science fiction genre than fantasy.

No, science fiction is not fantasy. Fantasy is a separate sub-genre of speculative fiction (although there can be overlap in some works; Traveller isn't one of them, though).

"Fantasy is a genre that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, and/or setting." [Wikipedia]​

In a literal sense, yes, science fiction is fantasy; however as a genre of literature you are correct in the definitions, but Traveller is not literature, it is an RPG based on science fiction. Teleporting Zhodani commando's? That is pure fantasy. Maybe the Blue Darrians have learned that from the Zhodani as well. :smirk:

Every cell of the body would need to be radically different to work with hemocyanin instead of hemoglobin.

How do you know this? It would be my pleasure to read the source, it has been quite interesting reading about hemocyanin as is.

That they did not have the alternative of emigrating. Since radically altering their own basic nature would seem to be a remedy of desperation, any reasonable alternative must have been non-existent.

No, not at all, as a matter of fact emigration would be the last act of desperation, because they would be abandoning their property, wealth and power that they had built up. This is a common theme throughout failed towns in the US, one can find these stories all through the US though particularly in the west.

Not for the same reason the Darrians sent a few explorers to explore other worlds, that's for sure.

No, I know it would be for exactly the same reasons: wealth, power and for personal gain.

But that solution required that they abandoned their homes anyway, since they would be unable to survive in their old environment.

No, with their domes failing, their homes would be abandoning them as it were, but there is no reason to say they would be unable to survive in their old enviornment, maybe just uncomfortable in the same way Sherpas are at lower altitudes.

You're postulating that the hemocyanin was used because it would be more efficent than hemoglobin[*]. But is not the case under any conditions that would allow an unaltered human to survive.

From the wiki article:

Species using hemocyanin for oxygen transportation are commonly crustaceans living in cold environments with low oxygen pressure. Under these circumstances hemoglobin oxygen transportation is less efficient than hemocyanin oxygen transportation.

Having the hemocyanin would give one an edge over an unaltered human, esp if you retreated underground where there would be higher temps and oxygen pressure.

Under baseline conditions hemocyanin is only one fourth as efficient as hemoglobin.

No, not the horseshoe crab's, its hill coeficient is as high as hemoglobin; though I've been writing of neo-hemocyanin for quite a few posts, it's even better. It's irrational to believe they would chose the worse hemocyanin over the better.

Personally I have no problem with the notion that, absent material needs, a human can sublimate any warlike instincts he has. After all, some humans are able to sublimate their reproductive instincts, surely an even more basic instinct than the warlike one. Come to that, there are a number of human societies that have eshewed violence altogether.

You are mixing individuals with nations and I don't think any nation is without violence, humans are humans, and we are violent, very much so.

No one is talking parallel evolution here. The postulate is that everybody is descended from the same ancestral species (Homo sapiens antiquus and that those human races who remain Homo sapiens do so because they have not diverged enough to be a different species. All perfectly scientifically sound.

No it is contrary to science (and exactly the concept of parallel human evolution); only one group of hominids evolves to be modern Humans, all others go extinct.

Only if we redefine 'The OTU' to mean 'The OTU with the changes Dragoner thinks it needs'.

Which I, for one, won't.

You don't have to, but what you do have to do is provide proof of the Blue Darrians being contrary to what has been written for the OTU, which I haven't seen, yet you claim so. They could easily be added as an addendum to the Darrians module as they do not abrogate anything written before. IMO, if I was Mr Miller I would think of adding them or some others like them looking at the success of the gothic type "race" in other RPG's, at least from a business standpoint, they are very popular. People love the dark elves and have for thousands of years.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

You don't have to, but what you do have to do is provide proof of the Blue Darrians being contrary to what has been written for the OTU, which I haven't seen, yet you claim so. They could easily be added as an addendum to the Darrians module as they do not abrogate anything written before. IMO, if I was Mr Miller I would think of adding them or some others like them looking at the success of the gothic type "race" in other RPG's, at least from a business standpoint, they are very popular. People love the dark elves and have for thousands of years.

Blue Darrians don't exist in the OTU, we know this because they have not been written about in cannon. Could they exist is what I believe you are discussing, and I don't intend to add anything to the discussion at present.

However to address what you say above; Hans doesn't have to prove anything because the information from the OTU makes no mention of them.

The onous is on your good self to make a plausable case for them in the OTU that doesn't contradict published cannon, and then (if you wish Blue Darrians to be in the OTU) get your work published via an official Traveller source (GURPS, Mongoose or QLI).

It's MO that the case you would have to make for them would have to be pretty convinsing, and that Hans would be a good person to convince. I have this viewpoint because Hans wrote a considerable amount of the cannon surrounding this area of space:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/swordworlds/

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

This is the primary definition from Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: 1fan·ta·sy
Variant(s): also phan·ta·sy \ˈfan-tə-sē, -zē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural fan·ta·sies
Etymology: Middle English fantasie — more at fancy
Date: 14th century
1 obsolete : hallucination
2 : fancy; especially : the free play of creative imagination
3 : a creation of the imaginative faculty whether expressed or merely conceived: as a : a fanciful design or invention


Imaginary and fantasy are one and the same, Traveller per se is not literature, so it does not fall under the title of speculative fiction.

Ok shall we just cut to the chase here and go with the Granddaddy of them all?

The Oxford English Dictionary defines "fantasy, phantasy, n." in the context that you are refuring to as:

"4.f. A genre of literary compositions.
1949 (title) The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction.
1954 M. F. RODELL Mystery Fiction ii. 4
Mysteries belong to the vast category of escape fiction. Westerns, ‘romances’,
historical novels, and fantasies (other than satires) all belong in the same category.
1955 F. BROWN Angels & Spaceships 9
Fantasy deals with things that are not and cannot be. Science fiction deals with things
that can be, that some day may be."

Which to my mind distiguishes between Fantasy and Science fiction as being distinct and different. YMMV of course.

Best regards,

Ewan