biosphere
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Commander Drax
SOC-12
Yes it does seem reasonable, on this world oxygen is a by product of biological activity. Did you know that worlds without biospheres would loose any free oxygen very quickly (AKA planet Mars) as it is highly reactive and would bind with most other free elements.
Should anything happen to destroy the biosphere here on earth it is estimated that all of the free oxygen would disapeer within a million years or so.
Hence oxygen in an atmosphere is definately a strong indication of at the very least simple biological activity (planktons & Algae, primitive plant life etc). The Imperial scout in me says that any long distance scans of a world would need to confirm the presence of not only oxygen but also methane in an atmosphere to confirm developed (land based life).
This is in keeping of the cannon of Traveller though as I firmly believe that the universe will naturally spawn life when conditions are favourable. So all breathable atmospheres in MTU have at the very least developed basic life forms.
Did you know that part of the reason why life developed really quickly in the sea was because of the oxygen content of the water, geologically speaking life only started to become complex on land (insects & spiders etc) when the atmospheric content of oxygen exceeded 5% which allowed sufficiently strong chemical reactions to power those primitive bodies. The upshot of this is that worlds with a high oxygen taint would most likely have lifeforms capable of extremely rapid movements (predators) as the increased oxygen content of the atmosphere would allow these rapid chemical reactions.
Hope this helps.
Commander Drax
Should anything happen to destroy the biosphere here on earth it is estimated that all of the free oxygen would disapeer within a million years or so.
Hence oxygen in an atmosphere is definately a strong indication of at the very least simple biological activity (planktons & Algae, primitive plant life etc). The Imperial scout in me says that any long distance scans of a world would need to confirm the presence of not only oxygen but also methane in an atmosphere to confirm developed (land based life).
This is in keeping of the cannon of Traveller though as I firmly believe that the universe will naturally spawn life when conditions are favourable. So all breathable atmospheres in MTU have at the very least developed basic life forms.
Did you know that part of the reason why life developed really quickly in the sea was because of the oxygen content of the water, geologically speaking life only started to become complex on land (insects & spiders etc) when the atmospheric content of oxygen exceeded 5% which allowed sufficiently strong chemical reactions to power those primitive bodies. The upshot of this is that worlds with a high oxygen taint would most likely have lifeforms capable of extremely rapid movements (predators) as the increased oxygen content of the atmosphere would allow these rapid chemical reactions.
Hope this helps.
Commander Drax
Life didn't develop quickly in the ocean though. It took a billion years. I'm as anxious as the next guy to find some alien lifeforms out there, but where are they? (Enrico Fermi asked that question when he was asked if there was life elsewhere). I wish it were more likely, but I think we're going to look a LONG time before we find any neighbors to talk to. 
Pappy
Pappy
Don't confuse alien life and intelligent alien life. The first aliens we are likely to encounter will probably be the equivalent of bacteria.Originally posted by eiladayn:
I wish it were more likely, but I think we're going to look a LONG time before we find any neighbors to talk to.
And yes, it will probably be a long time before that happens, because it will be a long time before we get there.
Alan B
[/qb][/QUOTE]Don't confuse alien life and intelligent alien life. The first aliens we are likely to encounter will probably be the equivalent of bacteria.
And yes, it will probably be a long time before that happens, because it will be a long time before we get there.
Alan B [/QB][/QUOTE]
And yes, it will probably be a long time before that happens, because it will be a long time before we get there.
Alan B [/QB][/QUOTE]
Sorry, I lost my connection before I wrote my reply. (See the post above)
Perhaps I wasn't clear, I think it will be a very long time before we find ANY life at all outside our own biosphere. Its estimated that it takes 600 pairs of DNA nucleotides to create a string long enough to be called living and capable of replicating itself. There are only four types of nucleotides, but this means there need to be 600 pairs lined up precisely the correct way to create a livng string, the most primitive form of life we know. That's 4 to the power of 600 chances to 1, that's a bunch.
Don't get me wrong, I fervently hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll find life beyond that of our own planet's biology for a very, very long time. I don't think life is anywhere near as common as we would LIKE to beleive (me included).
The odds of its occurance are just too long for me to believe otherwise, Carl Sagan er.al. not withstanding.
Sorry,
Pappy
Perhaps I wasn't clear, I think it will be a very long time before we find ANY life at all outside our own biosphere. Its estimated that it takes 600 pairs of DNA nucleotides to create a string long enough to be called living and capable of replicating itself. There are only four types of nucleotides, but this means there need to be 600 pairs lined up precisely the correct way to create a livng string, the most primitive form of life we know. That's 4 to the power of 600 chances to 1, that's a bunch.
Don't get me wrong, I fervently hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll find life beyond that of our own planet's biology for a very, very long time. I don't think life is anywhere near as common as we would LIKE to beleive (me included).
The odds of its occurance are just too long for me to believe otherwise, Carl Sagan er.al. not withstanding.
Sorry,
Pappy
No, not assuming life started here, but it IS a best guess right now.
Don't misunderstand I fervently wish there IS life elsewhere, one of my firends says that if we're ever invaded as in "Independence Day" that I will be one of the first to die because I'll walk up to the aliens with my hand stuck out to welcome them, (he's right too, I'd do anything short of selling my wife and kids to ride in a starship), but I just think that right now we're either alone or so nearly alone as not to matter.
Pappy
Don't misunderstand I fervently wish there IS life elsewhere, one of my firends says that if we're ever invaded as in "Independence Day" that I will be one of the first to die because I'll walk up to the aliens with my hand stuck out to welcome them, (he's right too, I'd do anything short of selling my wife and kids to ride in a starship), but I just think that right now we're either alone or so nearly alone as not to matter.
Pappy
M
Malenfant
Guest
Two things:Originally posted by eiladayn:
Perhaps I wasn't clear, I think it will be a very long time before we find ANY life at all outside our own biosphere. Its estimated that it takes 600 pairs of DNA nucleotides to create a string long enough to be called living and capable of replicating itself. There are only four types of nucleotides, but this means there need to be 600 pairs lined up precisely the correct way to create a livng string, the most primitive form of life we know. That's 4 to the power of 600 chances to 1, that's a bunch.
Don't get me wrong, I fervently hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll find life beyond that of our own planet's biology for a very, very long time. I don't think life is anywhere near as common as we would LIKE to beleive (me included).
The odds of its occurance are just too long for me to believe otherwise, Carl Sagan er.al. not withstanding.
Sorry,
Pappy
1) while all those things make be very unlikely, we know for a fact that they happened once (here). We also don't know what the probability of all those things coming together is either - it could be very likely that on any watery planet with the right temperature and chemistry and enough time, life will form despite all those individual probabilities. We don't have a clue how unique our planet is in the universe.
2) we don't have to look far for life. It is possible that the oceans under Europa's ice could support indigenous life based around hydrothermal vents on the seafloor, there might be evidence of fossil life on Mars, and even the possibility of microbes in Venus' clouds. None of these are certain by any means, but if any are found to be true then it means that multiple ecosystems could spring up in one system. if they are found, it doesn't say anything about the possibility of that happening elsewhere, but it does make it more hopeful that life is common.
no god, eh?
1 in (4 ^ 600), or 1 in 1.7 x 10^361 seems a little low.
for perspective, the number of atoms in the sun is only 9 x 10^96 ( http://pages.prodigy.net/jhonig/bignum/qasun.html )
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
This seems appropriate. Unable to sleep the other night I was channel surfing and found a science show on PBS. Thinking it would be just the ticket for insomnia and educational till I drifted off I got sucked right in and had to watch the whole hour. The program was called "Unlocking the Mystery of Life" and had biologists and philosophers discussing the theory known as "intelligent design". There's a book by the same name that would be worth checking out if your library has a copy (a university library should).
It seems there is a shift in thinking, away from Darwinism's natural selection and spontaneous life.
The scientists in the show were all very careful to stay away from the G word the whole hour. They were in fact uncomfortably avoiding it despite the obvious implication of the new theories. I'm not going to say I'm a believer but the new science makes it harder to not believe. Still I was laughing at how much effort they seemed to put in avoiding it while admitting not just the possibility but the practical probability.
It was all very enlightening and too involved to go into (what little I could meaningfully pass on) here. I don't see a repeat of the program listed for my area for the next little while but keep an eye out and see it if you can
It seems there is a shift in thinking, away from Darwinism's natural selection and spontaneous life.
The scientists in the show were all very careful to stay away from the G word the whole hour. They were in fact uncomfortably avoiding it despite the obvious implication of the new theories. I'm not going to say I'm a believer but the new science makes it harder to not believe. Still I was laughing at how much effort they seemed to put in avoiding it while admitting not just the possibility but the practical probability.
It was all very enlightening and too involved to go into (what little I could meaningfully pass on) here. I don't see a repeat of the program listed for my area for the next little while but keep an eye out and see it if you can
no god, eh?
1 in (4 ^ 600), or 1 in 1.7 x 10^361 seems a little low.
for perspective, the number of atoms in the sun is only 9 x 10^96 ( http://pages.prodigy.net/jhonig/bignum/qasun.html ) </font>[/QUOTE]==================================================
Exactly my point, obviously life developed once--here, but what I'm trying to say is that it is so VERY unlikely that ANY life develops without a "push" of some sort that the chances of a second occurrance are TINY, TINY, TINY.
Don'y misunderstand, I'm saying why life developed here (theology is another subject I avoid, it saves friendships), but it did and the chances of finding another race of sapient folks OFF our own world is really remote to say the least. We may be sharing our world with other sapients or near sapients now, though.
Pappy
Commander Drax
SOC-12
Hi Guys, Im back from a few days away and am really interested in how this topic has gone, personally I have weighed up the scientific evidence against the religious (I am both religious and scientific in my approach, finding infinite and delightful wonder in this tiny portion of the universe that we inhabit), and I must say that with a little bit of imagination and some known facts the universe could easily be teeming with life. Consider this that before the dinosaurs were wiped out some of the smaller more agile hunters (raptors etc) were evolving into flighty creatures with a high brain to body mass, and given enough time who knows they might have achieved full sentience and developed a mighty civilisation millions of years ago, had it not been for the mass extinction. What I am saying is this: That just because it has taken this long for us to evolve, achieve sentience and begin exploring our solar system it does not mean that it would take other alien life just as long and that civilisations across the galaxy are due to peak and meet at exactly the same time. In other words it's my personal belief that the galaxy teams with life, old life, new life, young life and that there are planets with sentient life out there, some advanced, some not so advanced, and others the same as us. Other civilisations might have died out millions of years ago, leaving nothing but ruins, which themselves may have been eroded away in the fullness of time. A quick study of life on earth proves that anywhere there is a small foothold, life will exist and adapt itself to suit its surrounding environment making use of whatever naturally occuring resources there are available, the by products of that life would most likely become food or resources for other varient life making up yet another small part of a much larger eco system.
To return to the reason behind this thread, space in the traveller universe is more or less old and fairly well explorer, there is life everywhere as a result of indignous life forms in some systems (the garden planet homeword) or as a result of civilisations of various ages actively colonising other worlds or solar systems by a variety of means (not just the jump drive)and often terraforming those worlds to suit their own particular needs. Most worlds in my campaign that can support humans or similar life forms are for the most part either fully terraformed colonies or at least part terraformed, which allows me great freedom when it comes to determining the cause of tainted atmospheres, variations in gravity, albedo effects, homogenity in social cultures between member worlds etc. The universe is to man's own will and responds to scientific principles being applied to it, after all we have the technology to easily terraform the planet mars and create orbital habitats or even permanent bases on other worlds in this solar system. The only brake on this being that it is incredibly expensive to do so and that the political will needed to do so is suspiciously lacking from our governments (but that's another thread).
When reading the UWP, use your imaginations to explain how the physical characteristics of the world got that way, are they natural or artifical, are they improving or worsening with time, where they once teaming with life, now extinct, or do they have evolving (microsopic life) feeding an ecosystem with spare oxygen that we could just about breath with a filter mask and a compressor. Furthermore is that solar system one of many that formed in the same stellar nursery, and if so then it would mean that the chemical elements that make up that solar system would be very similar to other solar systems within several parsacs, so if life was found in that solar system then it easy enough to specualte that alien life (made from the same of similar elements) would exist having evolved independantly in these other solar systems.
The main thing is though is simply this, do what you enjoy and try and build some mystery into your traveller universe, the players shouldnt have all of the answers to deep questions such as this, and neither should the referee, if the players want to know that badly let them get hold of a lab ship and research it themselves, that way you can tailor the campaign to suit them and provide answers that you are happy with without having to justify anything. There should be very large gaps in their knowledge, as a comparison today on earth no one really knows how life began here, or even how the universe came into being, the more research done on these subjects the more information is gained and the more questions are asked because the more you learn, the less you know.
Good questions being great answers which themselved answer very little except to cause further questions, its the slow plod of science, and the slow plod of philosophy.
Adios.....
To return to the reason behind this thread, space in the traveller universe is more or less old and fairly well explorer, there is life everywhere as a result of indignous life forms in some systems (the garden planet homeword) or as a result of civilisations of various ages actively colonising other worlds or solar systems by a variety of means (not just the jump drive)and often terraforming those worlds to suit their own particular needs. Most worlds in my campaign that can support humans or similar life forms are for the most part either fully terraformed colonies or at least part terraformed, which allows me great freedom when it comes to determining the cause of tainted atmospheres, variations in gravity, albedo effects, homogenity in social cultures between member worlds etc. The universe is to man's own will and responds to scientific principles being applied to it, after all we have the technology to easily terraform the planet mars and create orbital habitats or even permanent bases on other worlds in this solar system. The only brake on this being that it is incredibly expensive to do so and that the political will needed to do so is suspiciously lacking from our governments (but that's another thread).
When reading the UWP, use your imaginations to explain how the physical characteristics of the world got that way, are they natural or artifical, are they improving or worsening with time, where they once teaming with life, now extinct, or do they have evolving (microsopic life) feeding an ecosystem with spare oxygen that we could just about breath with a filter mask and a compressor. Furthermore is that solar system one of many that formed in the same stellar nursery, and if so then it would mean that the chemical elements that make up that solar system would be very similar to other solar systems within several parsacs, so if life was found in that solar system then it easy enough to specualte that alien life (made from the same of similar elements) would exist having evolved independantly in these other solar systems.
The main thing is though is simply this, do what you enjoy and try and build some mystery into your traveller universe, the players shouldnt have all of the answers to deep questions such as this, and neither should the referee, if the players want to know that badly let them get hold of a lab ship and research it themselves, that way you can tailor the campaign to suit them and provide answers that you are happy with without having to justify anything. There should be very large gaps in their knowledge, as a comparison today on earth no one really knows how life began here, or even how the universe came into being, the more research done on these subjects the more information is gained and the more questions are asked because the more you learn, the less you know.
Good questions being great answers which themselved answer very little except to cause further questions, its the slow plod of science, and the slow plod of philosophy.
Adios.....
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Indeed life has developed here, flourished even. The diversity and complexity of life here is boggling, as much what we can observe today as what we know used to thrive and all that is yet to be discovered.
This doesn't necessarily mean life originated here though. It could be that the seeds of life (that one in google random spark or divine gift or whatever) are drifting throughout the universe just waiting to land on some hospitable hunk of rock around a nice warm star. The universe could be teeming with life both familiar and "not as we know it" but it's unlikely we'll know until we can actually get out there or some of the more advanced forms arrive here[1]. That will indeed be a time of revelation and reevaluation, one I hope our species sees and finds good rather than ill.
[1] SETI not to be ignored but it seems a long shot even if our only current chance for some answers. I say this because it seems unlikely in our current world climate that we'll organize anything like the kind of signal SETI is hoping to find. Our random signal noise is only good for what, a couple dozen light years before it's all but lost against background noise. If other intelligences out there are using the same principles then everyone's listening but nobody's talking.
This doesn't necessarily mean life originated here though. It could be that the seeds of life (that one in google random spark or divine gift or whatever) are drifting throughout the universe just waiting to land on some hospitable hunk of rock around a nice warm star. The universe could be teeming with life both familiar and "not as we know it" but it's unlikely we'll know until we can actually get out there or some of the more advanced forms arrive here[1]. That will indeed be a time of revelation and reevaluation, one I hope our species sees and finds good rather than ill.
[1] SETI not to be ignored but it seems a long shot even if our only current chance for some answers. I say this because it seems unlikely in our current world climate that we'll organize anything like the kind of signal SETI is hoping to find. Our random signal noise is only good for what, a couple dozen light years before it's all but lost against background noise. If other intelligences out there are using the same principles then everyone's listening but nobody's talking.
Commander Drax
SOC-12
Yeah, I can agree with that, but on the flip side, I have read a scientific journal recently that reported that ftl communication may well be possible through a process of pairing sub atomic particles, in experiment they managed to encode some classical music and send it as a signal across a measured distance of several feet at 5.4 times the speed of light. In other words our radio communicaors are probably too primitive for any galactic civilisation, it could be that the whole universe is already talking and that we just havent developed the correct hard ware yet in order to listen. It could be that when these devices are finally built and operational they might trigger our entry into the galactic civilisation as an emerging species, and end our intediction. Who knows?
M
Malenfant
Guest
There's no such shift in thinking at all. What you were watching is very much 'fringe pseudo-science'.
"Intelligent Design" is more generally known as "Creationism". It's basically a pseudo-scientific backdoor that religious types use to try to justify biblical creation ideas and discredit mainstream science. To do so, they generally present some very dubiously manipulated scientific data (or conveniently fail to mention the fact that their ideas have already been shown to be wrong) as evidence to show they're on to something, where in fact they're not at all.
A lot of it centres around the Anthropic Principle, which basically says that since we're here, the universe must be ideal for our kind of life - and if it wasn't, then we wouldn't be here. They take it further and say that a creator was actively involved in our development.
There is no evidence for this whatosever. Yes, it's one of those ideas that *might* be possible, but that doesn't mean that it's true or correct or should be thought about seriously. It's also possible that governments might be in cahoots with aliens, ancient secret conspiracies may be running the world, and aliens might have built big faces on Mars, but all the 'evidence' for such claims is very dubious from the start and is selectively presented to people - usually along with something to discredit the mainstream thought and feed their paranoia - in order to mislead them into believing that such claims are true and that the mainstream is wrong.
I would be extremely skeptical of any programs that present Creationism/Intelligent Design seriously. These groups generally are not objective, and cannot be trusted to be impartial in the presentation of their data.
It's somewhat ironic really... religion is based on belief and Faith - that's the whole point of it. Science is based on observation and rational thought - the very antithesis of faith. You simply cannot go round trying to prove that religious ideas are correct by using scientific methods - they're totally incompatible, and it's entirely pointless to try.
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