BCS Assumptions
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
For conventional ships, which I understand in most instances of Traveller nowadays means grav drive, perhaps those 'legacy' thruster ports are actually heat ejection ports- superheat some fuel and eject, a 57th century smoke stack.
One way I looked at restoring the traditional ranges in was to have a more intensive gravitic field associated with the grav m-drives, and perhaps distorting IR and other telltales. Too much trouble for play value for me ultimately, but something to consider for those who feel the urge.
Nowadays I work detection/lock on as more a computing/array problem that is largely range driven given the huge volumes of space.
Any active use of weapons thrusters missile/small craft launch or sensors practically ensures detection at much longer ranges then a ship running on minimal power or entirely powered off.
Stealthed ships IMTU are using every exotic trick in the book to keep off every potential wavelength emission/return. The cost is exorbitant- an effective stealth vessel costs 5x conventional, TOTAL, and any repairs cost 5x to restore stealth functionality.
And finally every ship can roll against it, so with so many eyes and skilled sensor techs in a fleet, surprising a big force or a starport A world with multiple detection platforms is virtually impossible. So stealth only is worthwhile in small unit actions, distant recon between fleet scouts, special ops against softer targets, or smuggling against a secondary system patrol team
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It's not cost - it is physics.
Even with a gravitic maneuver drive you still have a multi-gigawatt to terawatt reactor. That generates a lot of waste heat.
Where does your waste heat go? You can not just spend money to make it disappear - you need a heat sink or a radiator. A heat sink can only soak so much waste heat before your ship starts to boil on the inside.
A radiator could be directional, but in a developed system you would have passive heat sensors pointing everywhere.
Even with a gravitic maneuver drive you still have a multi-gigawatt to terawatt reactor. That generates a lot of waste heat.
Where does your waste heat go? You can not just spend money to make it disappear - you need a heat sink or a radiator. A heat sink can only soak so much waste heat before your ship starts to boil on the inside.
A radiator could be directional, but in a developed system you would have passive heat sensors pointing everywhere.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I'm assuming handwavium advances in thermogenic conversion- not just a heat sink, but one that converts heat into power directly. That takes care of conventional craft not being readily detected at multi-AUs.
Stealth craft would have a lot more of it along with reflec-based insulation keeping the heat behind the wall and not on the skin.
Alternatively, one could go muon-catalyzed fusion and the heat is considerably less.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The problem isn't the efficiency of your fusion reactor to electricity conversion mechanism, or the relative temperature of your fusion process - where are you getting your muons from by the way?
If your reactor is generating a few gigawatts to a few terawatts of electricity then every transfer of electricity to another form of energy is generating waste heat. That waste heat has to go somewhere.
If your reactor is generating a few gigawatts to a few terawatts of electricity then every transfer of electricity to another form of energy is generating waste heat. That waste heat has to go somewhere.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I'm postulating a heat to electricity thermogenic technology, meaning that's where the heat is going. Current experimental versions do not do this, but then again we do not have portable fusion anti-grav or jump either.
I could get muons from the same sources used experimentally. Current exploration involves less muon generation and more about using lasers to make them more efficient.
Or I can postulate muonium, an artificially created alloy with scads of them in and a particle accelerator to inject the muons into the reactor.
They will fit in snugly right next to lanthanum and zuchai crystals.
answer: Banana.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Like I said- handwavium.
You still don't appear to grasp what I am saying - when you use the electricity you generate waste heat - thermodynamics is pretty clear on this. You are almost postulating a perpetual motion machine.
I have to accept that there is a hidden super science in Traveller of which we know nothing - namely waste heat management. Firing energy weapons, powering ship systems, using all of those terrawatts of electricity being generated by your reactor have to go somewhere. Even the simple act of boiling water to make a drink or heating food at mealtimes is going to eventually cook everyone inside the ship. A ship is a thermos flask/Dewar vessel if you prefer the term.
Does the acceleration compensation and artificial gravity field on a ship act as a heat sink for example.
Dude...
Here's a clue, maybe just maybe no one but you gives two rips where the imaginary waste heat from our imaginary magic fusion drives goes. It is a game after all, not real science. Let it go man, let it go. We are okay with magic perpetual motion machines, I mean hell we already have gravity control and out of universe travel, no waste heat is no big deal after those two.
Also, Flykiller, nice responses, in addition enjoyed Whartung's "banana" comment too.
No dude, you are the one not grasping things here.
Here's a clue, maybe just maybe no one but you gives two rips where the imaginary waste heat from our imaginary magic fusion drives goes. It is a game after all, not real science. Let it go man, let it go. We are okay with magic perpetual motion machines, I mean hell we already have gravity control and out of universe travel, no waste heat is no big deal after those two.
Also, Flykiller, nice responses, in addition enjoyed Whartung's "banana" comment too.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Just when you thought that the Laws of Thermodynamics were undeniable and unbreakable:
http://www.sciencealert.com/physici...articles-that-warp-the-laws-of-thermodynamics
Not a hard science article, but a report of results nonetheless.
I'm sorry I mentioned it guys, please read back to my posting, I'm talking about GAME effects, +2 tech advantage, what does it mean in a tactical game?
Gigawatt heat ,,, what about SOL level heat, did you know that at distances over 10 LY SOL is effectively invisible. There HAS to be some distance such that the photon flux from your gigawatt waste heat is just not detected at levels above background radiation. No handwavium involved, just math.
Time Scale: If you are in tactical combat a lot can happen in 6 seconds, as missiles are doing their closest approach and are trying to point their lazing rod array at a ship some 15,000 Km away umm that's 1/20 of a second right there, with 2X that time + fire control delay + actuator delay, your missile may have to predict where the target will be .25 seconds in the future. The missiles that have 30,000 km range will need .35 second predictions given the same level of technology in the fire control and actuator 10 hex, .3 million KM laser shots will need to predict target location at about 2 seconds in the future.
And the 80 hex, shots are predicting at 16 seconds. I would wager that target evasion makes shots at this range impossible level difficulty.
So there you have some granularity as to the usefulness of direct fire energy weapons (light speed ones that is) This includes all forms of spinal weaponry.
Generally without some special circumstances, direct fire weapons will just not be hitting beyond 10 light second ranges. We should define the range at which direct fire weapons are likely to hit to be short range, and the intermediate range where they are unlikely to hit, but still fired to be medium range, and the further range which direct fire weapons have no chance is long range.
That brings us to missile and drone combat (a missile is a one shot device that destroys itself when it attacks, a drone is either a sensor /ewar platform OR a weapon system that has multiple or infinite shots, and has to be attacked to make it mission ineffective.)
Characterizing missiles: they are fast compared to manned craft, they are smaller than the smallest manned craft, they can be quite stealthy, (launched on a drift in attack vector they will not be hot until they fire up their rockets or turn on their fusion plants to begin their attack runs)
So Manned craft can do something like 8 g's without knocking out the crew, depending on tech level you can get a reasonable missile or drone that can do 60 g's, 36 Km per second added every minute 10 min of thrust gives it a vector of .1 light second every second or 10 % of light speed, guess we need to factor time into this 11 min of thrust makes the universe see the missile at 10% of light speed 23 min to get to 20% light speed... 30 min of thrust and we have a 25% light speed missile, and enormously huge ranges involved in getting to this speed however.
Gigawatt heat ,,, what about SOL level heat, did you know that at distances over 10 LY SOL is effectively invisible. There HAS to be some distance such that the photon flux from your gigawatt waste heat is just not detected at levels above background radiation. No handwavium involved, just math.
Time Scale: If you are in tactical combat a lot can happen in 6 seconds, as missiles are doing their closest approach and are trying to point their lazing rod array at a ship some 15,000 Km away umm that's 1/20 of a second right there, with 2X that time + fire control delay + actuator delay, your missile may have to predict where the target will be .25 seconds in the future. The missiles that have 30,000 km range will need .35 second predictions given the same level of technology in the fire control and actuator 10 hex, .3 million KM laser shots will need to predict target location at about 2 seconds in the future.
And the 80 hex, shots are predicting at 16 seconds. I would wager that target evasion makes shots at this range impossible level difficulty.
So there you have some granularity as to the usefulness of direct fire energy weapons (light speed ones that is) This includes all forms of spinal weaponry.
Generally without some special circumstances, direct fire weapons will just not be hitting beyond 10 light second ranges. We should define the range at which direct fire weapons are likely to hit to be short range, and the intermediate range where they are unlikely to hit, but still fired to be medium range, and the further range which direct fire weapons have no chance is long range.
That brings us to missile and drone combat (a missile is a one shot device that destroys itself when it attacks, a drone is either a sensor /ewar platform OR a weapon system that has multiple or infinite shots, and has to be attacked to make it mission ineffective.)
Characterizing missiles: they are fast compared to manned craft, they are smaller than the smallest manned craft, they can be quite stealthy, (launched on a drift in attack vector they will not be hot until they fire up their rockets or turn on their fusion plants to begin their attack runs)
So Manned craft can do something like 8 g's without knocking out the crew, depending on tech level you can get a reasonable missile or drone that can do 60 g's, 36 Km per second added every minute 10 min of thrust gives it a vector of .1 light second every second or 10 % of light speed, guess we need to factor time into this 11 min of thrust makes the universe see the missile at 10% of light speed 23 min to get to 20% light speed... 30 min of thrust and we have a 25% light speed missile, and enormously huge ranges involved in getting to this speed however.
So how does this look in a game?
Do you have single missile flybys of 90% light speed missiles or are they just converted to a cloud of ions by dust collisions, and you have a speed limit beyond which missiles just die? (depending on system dustiness).
I can see missile combat being handled David Webber's Honor universe style as a series of engagements between waves of missiles and the ships defenses, with hits steadily eroding the defense till some point the defense ceases to be effective after which all missiles get to make their attacks. Once this point is reached a contact detonation missile is launched to end the engagement. (at .25 light speed , no warhead is needed, contacting the hull will be enough.)
With this type of missile combat, it can be argued that the direct fire energy weapons are relegated to point defenses and the spinal mount goes away. Is that where we want to go?
Do you have single missile flybys of 90% light speed missiles or are they just converted to a cloud of ions by dust collisions, and you have a speed limit beyond which missiles just die? (depending on system dustiness).
I can see missile combat being handled David Webber's Honor universe style as a series of engagements between waves of missiles and the ships defenses, with hits steadily eroding the defense till some point the defense ceases to be effective after which all missiles get to make their attacks. Once this point is reached a contact detonation missile is launched to end the engagement. (at .25 light speed , no warhead is needed, contacting the hull will be enough.)
With this type of missile combat, it can be argued that the direct fire energy weapons are relegated to point defenses and the spinal mount goes away. Is that where we want to go?
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Not really, just much higher levels of conversion rates then we are used to.
The auxiliary thermogenics would be a low power system, probably the primary system for life support as it does not require the power plant directly.
I would expect several passes through the system for any given heat, X amount of conversion per hour.
I would also expect super-resistor technology to be the counterpart development to superconductors and therefore much more efficient electricity use requiring much less power and therefore heat to do the same work- or direct field work such as my virtual conformal wings.
Since I run a reaction engine M-drive universe, again that tail rocket is a convenient waste heat disposal, and any stealth unit using thrust IMTU has all manner of exotic stealth including baffles, chillers, high performance thermogenics, etc. etc.
Yes indeed you do need to accept it. This is what I was talking about when Aramis made some rude commentary when I said 'how is this still a thing'.
In NASA this is a thing.
In Traveller it isn't.
Except apparently for TNE, and I would think it questionable if those radiators do the job. In any event, for stealthing radiators are going to be almost as bad as reaction engines.
I want a hard feel and game effects, so I hit the fire button on the plausible gun and move on.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
No dude, you are the one not grasping things here.
Here's a clue, maybe just maybe no one but you gives two rips where the imaginary waste heat from our imaginary magic fusion drives goes. It is a game after all, not real science. Let it go man, let it go. We are okay with magic perpetual motion machines, I mean hell we already have gravity control and out of universe travel, no waste heat is no big deal after those two.
Also, Flykiller, nice responses, in addition enjoyed Whartung's "banana" comment too.
I don't mind the commentary as I have the sort of friends that have hit Project Rho and will ask the same questions.
Long as I have my plausible gun I am all good.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Warwizard, I am working on a maneuver version of HG, and so I have to answer such questions.
My basic assumption is -1 to hit every 100,000 km, or to put it your way every .6 seconds added on for ping and return.
Why so low an effect? Well, I am matching it to the classic CT DMs because the time and movement scales are the same so I don't want to wander off too far from that.
In addition, what counts here for targetting is how far the target ship can alter it's future inertial position from the last known one within those X seconds. The answer with ships limited to 1-6G is not that far, and if one is not firing the main M-drive it's a lot less.
So my assumption is most weapons hit, the question that the to-hit roll resolves is whether it was a hit-hit with the hull presented angled 45 degrees or less, or along the edge where the hit effectively 'bounces' off.
I'm also assuming a basic maximum range of 3 million km with spinals, with a more realistic typical range of 1.5 million km, and most bays being something like 500,000-800,000 km effective.
The TL increases are twofold- the HG values of computer model and weapon value increase/armor value maximum-lower tonnage per value.
TL also affects sensor ranges IMTU, although I am assuming a more difficult time surprising anyone with higher TL and lower TL is still functional about getting a detection at least.
I'm working up a chaffroc type system too, think sandcasters that instead launch a blossom of multispectrum spoofers that makes a huge cloud that causes the actual ship position to be difficult to determine. That one WILL be TL sensitive.
All this would be done, but I am really wrestling with issues like armor, bay effects that don't make them just slightly more powerful lasers, and yes the missiles.
Pretty big leap to go to 60G missiles that make fractional c speeds. Trouble is, to make a Traveller time scale work out to where the ships can be hit distantly with missiles in reasonable time frames and not easily dodge them, you need a faster missile. Unless you LIKE tracking 50 missile clouds as they drift and maneuver.
My basic assumption is -1 to hit every 100,000 km, or to put it your way every .6 seconds added on for ping and return.
Why so low an effect? Well, I am matching it to the classic CT DMs because the time and movement scales are the same so I don't want to wander off too far from that.
In addition, what counts here for targetting is how far the target ship can alter it's future inertial position from the last known one within those X seconds. The answer with ships limited to 1-6G is not that far, and if one is not firing the main M-drive it's a lot less.
So my assumption is most weapons hit, the question that the to-hit roll resolves is whether it was a hit-hit with the hull presented angled 45 degrees or less, or along the edge where the hit effectively 'bounces' off.
I'm also assuming a basic maximum range of 3 million km with spinals, with a more realistic typical range of 1.5 million km, and most bays being something like 500,000-800,000 km effective.
The TL increases are twofold- the HG values of computer model and weapon value increase/armor value maximum-lower tonnage per value.
TL also affects sensor ranges IMTU, although I am assuming a more difficult time surprising anyone with higher TL and lower TL is still functional about getting a detection at least.
I'm working up a chaffroc type system too, think sandcasters that instead launch a blossom of multispectrum spoofers that makes a huge cloud that causes the actual ship position to be difficult to determine. That one WILL be TL sensitive.
All this would be done, but I am really wrestling with issues like armor, bay effects that don't make them just slightly more powerful lasers, and yes the missiles.
Pretty big leap to go to 60G missiles that make fractional c speeds. Trouble is, to make a Traveller time scale work out to where the ships can be hit distantly with missiles in reasonable time frames and not easily dodge them, you need a faster missile. Unless you LIKE tracking 50 missile clouds as they drift and maneuver.
Since the basic premise of Traveller ship combat is physics based, with limited handwavium, you need to define what got better with Tech + 2, how those manifest in the physical world (i.e. armor gets more tough for the same weight, sensors get better resolution through betters materials or better computing power, etc.)
That's all well and good, but based on the math we've all seen, none of that matter at ranges that are considered tactical.
Also consider, that Traveller does have stealth -- practically perfect stealth. It's called a Jump drive. Using a Jump drive, a ship can achieve strategic, and, possibly, tactical surprise, as they just appear out of nowhere. What they can't do is gather intelligence and lie in wait. When they arrive, they arrive blind.
Save that nobody models ship to ship combat at the timescale (well, SFB does -- but, that's meaningless). Turns typically are 20-30 minutes. But that doesn't remove the realities of light speed weapons, and the innate difficulty of evading them as ranges close. The inherent limits manifest through accuracy of detection, accuracy of the mount, and power of the weapon. Back to the TL discussion above, as TL increases, the sensors will get better (giving a better, more accurate plot of the targets location and vector), the mounts will get better (providing higher resolution necessary to make the micro-arcsecond changes necessary to hit targets at long ranges), and weapon power.
TNE discusses the limitations of lasers and how the power is applied related to mirror size, and leaps to gravitic focusing to make lasers "useful" in ship combat without carting around mirrors that are 30 meters in diameter. It's "reasonable" to project that if they can control gravity to make enhanced lenses for focusing, they can also apply the same tech to make minor changes to the field to handle the very fine, micro arc second adjustments necessary to hit targets at range, vs some mechanical technique.
TNE already does this. I imagine Striker does as well.
The issue here, is when traveling at such speeds, even big targets get much, much smaller, since both are moving, and, ostensibly, one is evading somehow, meaning the missile must correct. The higher the speed, the finer the adjustments must be, since they must be made from much farther away.
And even at very high speed, the missiles are still vulnerable to light speed weapons.
Also if your missile are going that fast, you simply have the issue of the missile being "one shot, one kill" kinetic energy weapons. The warhead will become simple plasma long before it has a chance to detonate on impact. Better to replace the warhead simply with something heavy.
