• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Archdukes and emperors are beyond the normal scope of play

Archdukes and emperors are beyond the normal scope of play.

  • Agree

    Votes: 89 53.0%
  • Disagree

    Votes: 33 19.6%
  • Partially agree

    Votes: 46 27.4%

  • Total voters
    168
The episode of Shindig from Firefly could be used as an example of role play that would focus exclusively on the higher ranks.

Kaylee: "Up until the punching, it was a real nice party."

I'm thinking that maybe one of the players (who looks a lot like the Emperor) is paid to appear somewhere and pretend to be Emperor for a day. The other players (if they have police riot-squad skills) work with the Imperial Guards for the day, which are all in on it as well. They want the planetary "visit/shindig" to appear real.
 
Last edited:
Any of these have the players be a group of PCs of which one is the extremely high-level muckety-muck and the rest work together with him the way a normal PC party works together?

Yes. Otherwise I'd not have mentioned them. To some degree, yes, all of them have a party motif.

Dune: Chronicles of the Imperium: The PC's are the head and officers of a house-minor. They operate as a group to guide the house, and respond to threats and issues.

Burning Empires: Not quite as a party, but there's loads of reason to PVP as well as PVGM, and it's a very different kind of RP.

Jihad (for Burning Wheel): can be run in the same mode as Burning Empires, or as a more traditional party of Mu'adib's faithful rampaging through a world.

Reign, HOTB: in some modes of play, yes, in others, no - PVP instead. In all three, however, adventures still involve the group having to work together to overcome the issues. Issues are not, however, the same kind as in low level games.

Pendragon, Birthright: Absolutely. The leader type both sets missions for the underlings that can be resolved as adventures for just them, and has them help in his/her own plots, strokes, and courts. Only works if the leader is cooperative with the GM. It is the normal mode for birthright, and the high-level play mode for Pendragon.

Mars 2100: yes, but the expectation also seems pretty much discuss, and see who can implement their own plan.

In general, the high level mode looks a lot more LARPish than the typical traveller game.

Note that BE, Jihad/BW, Reign, Mars 2100 and HOTB all also have resolution mechanics which can specifically handle changing opinions with mechanical effect. And there are others, as well, leaning towards this style of play.

I once ran a Traveller game where the PC's were the board of directors of a corporation... it's different. But it's a viable and fun way to game... with the right people.
 
Kaylee: "Up until the punching, it was a real nice party."

I'm thinking that maybe one of the players (who looks a lot like the Emperor) is paid to appear somewhere and pretend to be Emperor for a day. The other players (if they have police riot-squad skills) work with the Imperial Guards for the day, which are all in on it as well. They want the planetary "visit/shindig" to appear real.

Could be interesting and fun.... unless its 1116 on your game calendar... in which case maybe not so much fun. Hmmm... a "how my PC became the real Strephon" campaign would be weird but different. Actually, on second thought that might be pretty wild. They get hired to do an appearance, things go well until they're getting ready to leave when word arrives that Strephon has been assassinated. Strephon is dead? Everyone looks at the PC... long live Strephon... but can "Strephon" save the Imperium?

Just brainstorming, never thought of trying that before. Interesting idea though.

Less over the top, perhaps the PC has to impersonate the Emperor, the real Emperor is actually there but need to be able to slip away for a "high level secret meeting" (which might turn out to be some alone time with a certain duchess... or a meeting with a Zhodani consulate regarding certain far ranging projects... or whatever you make up). Of course the nature of the meeting draws the attention of various "interested" parties.
 
1116 was not a problem for my games. I never followed the Emperor assassination story/timeline, or the rebellion.
 
Last edited:
It appears that I have been far too broad and general in my comments - guilty as charged.

Now, to take one valid rebuttal and address it. If one player at a table has an archduke for a PC, I would expect (perhaps inaccurately) that A. this is not the result of a fully random chargen, but rather a deliberate campaign setup unanimously agreed to by the ref and players alike* and B. the other PCs are senior members of the archducal retinue, household, huscarles, etc. - the kind of people that do accompany an archduke on the move. The key for play dynamics is that their relationship with the archduke is such that he views them as confidants and advisers, not lackeys to be ordered about; the latter such is the purview of NPCs.

As to what kind of adventures they would have - that depends on your view of the 3I, what kinds of non-routine things might happen to an archduke and retinue, and the kinds of stories that ref and players alike want to tell through their gaming. Scarcity stories are too forced in such a situation, except as a single, non-recurring plot line (marooned or the like) or a major change in the setting and the direction of the game (e.g. major political upheaval results in the archduke losing their title). Sufficient invocation of the Rule of Drama (and as necessary, the Rule of Cool) can suspend disbelief as necessary.
 
It appears that I have been far too broad and general in my comments - guilty as charged.

No worries, its just a discussion. :)

Now, to take one valid rebuttal and address it. If one player at a table has an archduke for a PC, I would expect (perhaps inaccurately) that A. this is not the result of a fully random chargen, but rather a deliberate campaign setup unanimously agreed to by the ref and players alike* and B. the other PCs are senior members of the archducal retinue, household, huscarles, etc. - the kind of people that do accompany an archduke on the move. The key for play dynamics is that their relationship with the archduke is such that he views them as confidants and advisers, not lackeys to be ordered about; the latter such is the purview of NPCs.

That would be one way to do it. Another would be to allow each player play a diferent Duke or Archduke, each with their own retinue, goals, motivations, etc. It could be done like the default model in Ars Magica where each player creates a mage and then a retinue of other characters which are generally played by other players. Each game session focuses on the storyline of each mage, rotating from one to the next. So sesion 01 might be about Archduke Alpha, with the other players playing members of his family and staff. Session switches to Archduke Beta, and so on. In some sessions you might have two or more Archdukes active in the same session when several are interacting in some way.


As to what kind of adventures they would have - that depends on your view of the 3I, what kinds of non-routine things might happen to an archduke and retinue, and the kinds of stories that ref and players alike want to tell through their gaming. Scarcity stories are too forced in such a situation, except as a single, non-recurring plot line (marooned or the like) or a major change in the setting and the direction of the game (e.g. major political upheaval results in the archduke losing their title). Sufficient invocation of the Rule of Drama (and as necessary, the Rule of Cool) can suspend disbelief as necessary.

Typically I find the following things are key plot elements in this style of play:
politics - intrigue, rivalry, espionage, alliances, political philosophy, etc.
social - relationships with friends and family, attitude and relationship with people you have authority over, social problems (unrest, crime, economy, etc. and finding solutions to these).
personal - personal motivations, goals and beliefs become central plot devices. Dealing with personal demons and how that affects others.

I also typically find the following things become uncommon:
Combat - not much personal fighting... maybe a duel but even this should be a dramatic event and its more about the story that led to the duel with the actual duel simply being the climatic result. Occasionally if there is a war there might be a chance for some heroics there. Not many bar room brawls or the like.
Exploring - not much in the way charting new territory, crawling through ruins or dark caverns or what have you... you hire people to do this, then react to what they find.
Blue collar stuff - small time (struggling) merchants, smugglers, etc. don't often enter the picture except as NPCs, the PCs won't be doing this sort of thing... again, they hire people to do it.

At this level the PC is the Patron, the GM should not be leading them into adventure but instead stepping back and letting the PCs set things in motion, pursue their own agendas, etc. The GM is there to run the universe they exist in, but shouldn't need to "prompt" the players with "so you're at the local pub on the planet you just visited when a Patron approaches you..." The PC should be the ones doing the approaching, they are the ones now responsible for setting events in motion.

At most the GM perhaps throws out a major event they all then react to. For example, say you have five players and each is playing an Archduke. You as GM decide to throw a war at them... the K'kree just launched an attack. This will directly affect some more than others, not all of them will be directly affected, while others will see worlds under their rule become battle grounds. Story arcs could deal with how each reacts to the war in various ways, both as a governing body and personally. As an archduke how do the prepare, defend, help those attacked, counter attack, negotiate peace, and so forth? On a more personal level how do they react when for example they send the 453rd Antarran Fulsiers into battle, in which the Archdukes nephew is an officer... reports come back that the battle didn't go well, the Fulsiers took heavy losses and there is no word yet regarding the nephew who is ultimately listed as MIA. The PC can't go charging to the rescue personally, as an Archduke they are both very powerful and at the same time in ways helpless, how do the PCs react to that? What do the do if the nephew was captured? If the enemy uses them to bargain with? Do they sacrifice their people to protect the nephew? Do the needs of the many really out weigh the needs of the one? What about the aftermath of their choice?

At this level of play there is generally a lot less dice rolling I find. The focus is on the story, not on whether you managed to shoot the gun out of the other guy's hand. Do NOT let it become just a game of numbers and bookkeeping. The story is in how any why they make choices, and how they deal with the consequences of those choices. For example, social problems cannot be solved just by throwing X amount of RUs at the problem... make them work through it, and sometimes face the reality that there are no perfect solutions, or that sometimes the only real solution is one the public will not accept, and that generally, no matter what they do somebody will be unhappy about it and that in itself become another problem. You can draw on real world history and current events for a wealth of plot ideas... many of them repeat through history.

It makes for a very different style of game but it can also be very enjoyable. Not necessarily better (I hate those "this is better" arguments, personally I enjoy the variety of options... struggling free trader last campaign, an archduke this campaign, next campaign a merc captain and the GM decides just for irony it will be set in the war my archduke fought, same war from a different perspective) just different.

Think of it as being like a camera focus. The "struggling free trader" style campaign has a tight "camera focus". The larger events of the universe are "out of focus", simply there in the background but not generally significant to the story. The "scope" is limited to the free trader's perspective. With Archdukes the camera "pans out" to show the wider "scope" of the galaxy. Now its the free trader who is "out of focus", and the larger events of the universe become the main story, the perspective has switched to that of the Archduke.

As I mentioned above, it can also be fun to start with some Archdukes, run campaign (as short or as long as is fun) and gaming out a couple of decades of game time. Decide what major events will occur, then let them react to them. Take notes on everything.

Next campaign, let them play free traders or mercs or soldiers who now live in that same time period they previously gamed out. Same events with the archdukes doing the same things they did, but now they get to experience it from a different perspective.

One final note, the above styles of gaming requires players who enjoy story telling. If your group mainly likes shooting things, it probably won't work for them. As always, its important to know your group's gaming style.
 
Could be interesting and fun.... unless its 1116 on your game calendar... in which case maybe not so much fun. [...] ...word arrives that Strephon has been assassinated. Strephon is dead? Everyone looks at the PC... long live Strephon... but can "Strephon" save the Imperium?

Funny you should mention that. I've*played* Strephon at a convention game years ago (Sydcon '89, from memory).

...OK, now that I've gone and dug out the character sheet. ("Pack rat? Me? Never!")

Paul Eccleston wrote a convention module called "Death of an Empire", start date 134-1116 (i.e. the day after the assassination). When handing our char sheets, the DM asked "who knows the most about Traveller?" and ended up handing me a sheet for "Stephen Alkell", a human with a "fairly secret" background where he "worked for the government". After reading this first page, I turned to the second and said "%$#*&!!!"

Once I calmed down, I re-read the first few lines. Name: Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi. Career: Government. Final Rank: Emperor. Admin-6. Leader-5. Small Watercraft-1. Credits: unlimited (unavailable). ("You beauty! <pause> oh, bugger!") ;)

Turns out "I" had been packing for a sailing trip when I saw the assassination on a Throne Room monitor. I grabbed some servant's clothes, scribbled out an Imperial Warrant (stop laughing, Hans!), and bolted for the hangar bays. Unfortunately, as I was getting into an air/raft, someone shot me. I woke up, surrounded by a Droyne (custodian of the TL 21!! ship we were now on), an Aslan warrior, a human (who turned out to be a Solomani high-tech cat burglar a-la the Pink Panther, currently with Iolanthe's necklace), a Zhodani noble from a visiting scientific expedition (with telekinesis enough to shift a mineshaft collapse - but that was later), and a female Vargr pilot - i.e., the other PC's.

The rest of the adventure was peppered with elements from _The Golden Child_ movie (a pretty funny Eddie Murphy flick), with our group having to repair The Key (an Ancient artifact) in order to seal a black hole and prevent the Servant of Darkness from ...well, taking over the universe, I guess.

Whew! We managed to stave off the Servant (who, yes, was _exactly_ as bad-ass as Sardo Numspa, the bad guy from the film), chuck the Key into the black hole, and (mis-)jump out... to wherever it was that Strephon reappeared in canon (Usdiki??).

And won first place. ;)

What did I learn? Yaskoydray can predict the future, but that doesn't stop him from being a complete bastard when it comes to giving out hints. (He probably makes up cryptic crosswords in his spare time). An Aslan with combat armor and a Yurletya (spear-hook) is worth 5 Imperial guards. And finally, white globes are WAY COOOOOL! (I want one!)

So I guess everyone is right - you CAN play the Emperor as a PC, but (as Hans points out) not if he really if "being" the Emperor, with access to all his minions and goodies.

Although, come to think of it, I also played a Cancon game at the ANU which was set "aboard" the floating Imperial Palace from Digest 9... Dulinor's daughter, Isis, supposedly there to swear allegiance to that looney Lucan, shot him dead and claimed the Imperial Throne for herself... now THAT was another interesting game... ;)
 
Last edited:
Agreed. It's perfectly possible to run a campaign involving members of high society or even very high society. But they wouldn't be running free traders or mercenary squads.


Hans

They would however be hiring them and excuses might even be found to mix with them personally especially in a more cinematic game.

In any case, it is perfectly possible to make drama in high society. Both Dune and Babylon 5 did just that.
 
The PCs could be the baron and staff of a strategic point and interact with representatives of other powers, etc.

There would be no need to "go adventuring" because there would be assassinations, intrigue, what not. It might be like a Starport game, simply with more political firepower to throw around.
 
They would however be hiring them and excuses might even be found to mix with them personally especially in a more cinematic game.

In any case, it is perfectly possible to make drama in high society. Both Dune and Babylon 5 did just that.
The Dune and Babylon 5 RPGs had player characters who were emperor of the Galaxy, or even just the President of Earth?
The PCs could be the baron and staff of a strategic point and interact with representatives of other powers, etc.
Imperial barons, especially honor nobles, are not in the same league as archdukes and emperors.
There would be no need to "go adventuring" because there would be assassinations, intrigue, what not. It might be like a Starport game, simply with more political firepower to throw around.
And I repeat, once more, my question, still unanswered:

I'm talking about sitting down around a table with five of my friends. Each of them has a character sheet in front of him. One of the sheets detail Archduke Kieran Adair of Sol. Now tell me, what characters do the other four play, and what adventures do I run them through that gives them all more or less the same amount of "screen time"?

Hans
 
I'm talking about sitting down around a table with five of my friends. Each of them has a character sheet in front of him. One of the sheets detail Archduke Kieran Adair of Sol. Now tell me, what characters do the other four play, and what adventures do I run them through that gives them all more or less the same amount of "screen time"?

Hans

My best shot to describe such a game would be like the American television show "the West Wing". The 4 other characters would be the advisers, reporters and other movers and shakers that get screen time over the course of the series.
 
A Duke, much less an Archduke, is most likely shadowed everywhere by 50 versions of Hollywood Tonight every minute (s)he pokes his or her head outside their private residence in their manor.

20 or 30 gossip sites most likely exist to cover what clothes they wear or which show they go to see. "ZOMG! Duke Jamsiiisi slightly sneered when Professor Riikiesii presented his twenty verse ode to the Rim War!" "Only on Manor! Tonight!, the Duke's sneer was towards the latest hot drink, Terran Hot Whiskey and Rams Piss!"

An Imperial Duke is not boarding an A2 for any reason other than to tour it for the 20,000th copy made at the shipyard.
Thread necromancy. Cool.

I have kind of the same outlook on the noble. The Imperium is most likely a media culture, and the nobles are probably hob-nobbing with "hot" celebs, with a mixture of tawdry sites and gossip columns about the rich and good-looking.

Whereas the politicos have their famed immersed in interstellar/international relations, again with sites with Zho and Imp teenagers exchanging barbs about Norris or Dulinor or whoever on Youholo.

They key is that if you're going to RP a session with that kind of entourage, then your players have to navigate the security guards (or assuming they are) and the media circus that follows them.

I don't think high ranking nobles are out of the scheme of things. Your group may vary, but I think it important to inject a sense of realism into that session; i.e. not just the media circus of reporters and videographers/photographers, but whatever fans are there, and the nut-cases hearing voices in their heads telling them to shoot said noble, which the adventurers must somehow thwart.

Ergo; no, not impossible, probably fun for a change of pace from the usual run and gun fare Traveller gravitates towards, but it would not strike me as a regular staple for Traveller.
 
I'm talking about sitting down around a table with five of my friends. Each of them has a character sheet in front of him. One of the sheets detail Archduke Kieran Adair of Sol. Now tell me, what characters do the other four play, and what adventures do I run them through that gives them all more or less the same amount of "screen time"?
Hans

I played in a game last year, in which the PCs were emperors of a cluster of pocket empires. Unfortunately the game didn't run very long, thanks to the complexities of the Pocket Empires rule set, but it demonstrated that such a game could take place.

I got quite attached to my character and his plans to preserve his empire and dynasty in the face of changing political situations beyond his borders. Expand or hold? War or treaty? What's the other guy going to do? How do I keep the people happy? Should I arrange a marriage? What will my daughter think? How do I stop my brother-in-law from plotting to take the throne without upsetting my sister?

I'm not so sure it would work in a FtF group, there are too many secrets to be kept, but as PbP it went quite well until the bookkeeping burden took its toll (particularly on the GM).
With a simpler rule set I think it would make for a great game.
 
My best shot to describe such a game would be like the American television show "the West Wing". The 4 other characters would be the advisers, reporters and other movers and shakers that get screen time over the course of the series.
I don't see The West Wing as a model for a typical Traveller campaign either, so that's not much help. How would such a game actually work?


Hans
 
I played in a game last year, in which the PCs were emperors of a cluster of pocket empires. Unfortunately the game didn't run very long, thanks to the complexities of the Pocket Empires rule set, but it demonstrated that such a game could take place.
I know that. I ran such a "Great Game" a long time ago, with some of my friends taking the parts of rulers in my Fantasy campaign world. But that was run by mail, not face to face.

I'm not so sure it would work in a FtF group...
Oh, as a sort of board game it could almost certainly work FtF.


Hans
 
I don't see The West Wing as a model for a typical Traveller campaign either, so that's not much help. How would such a game actually work?


Hans

Wait a second Hans. I am not trying to jerk your chain here. I am trying to constructively put this discussion forward.

Your example of the five characters where one of them is a multi planet(or subsector) domain noble is what I was trying to answer. The thread has taken as definition the typical traveller game is one where the players are trying to make their next mortgage payment or evade skip jackers. With in that definition, clearly it is not possible to run a typical game.

I was trying to answer the question of how the rest of the players could get share meaningful dramatic focus. As a confession, I have not watched the West Wing show. I just know that it is a show that ran for 80 or so episdoes. I could not imaging that it would have survived with the president character dominating all of the camera time. I know that the show focussed upon all of the functionaries and people they encounter.

One way not to run it would be in the format of the original Star Trek with the captain beaming down to the surface on every episode.

What makes these high power games work is that no matter how much power you have, no matter how wealthy, you must have goals which exceed your grasp. Otherwise there is no drama. There is no conflict, no meaningful choices. By having this gap between what you want and what you have then you have a gaame to play. The functionaries (the other players) need to have their own agendas as well, otherwise they are just lackeys to be ordered around.

Another way to do it would be, as I think it was mentioned up thread, to run it in an Ars Magica fashion. Each of the players would make up a Noble and the players would take turns running an adventure, one person would play a noble at a time. From what I understand there were many times in feudal history that the king was not over powerful in comparison to his dukes. So just because you are the highest SOC noble at the table does not mean that you can simply push everyone else around.

You are completely correct in saying that the typical travleller game would simply not work. You could not start the game with "You are stuck on Argle Bargle and you need to earn enough to get a mid passage off world . . ." This does not mean that you could not run a game.

I think that it is unfortunate that the OP put the word "normal" in the question. It muddies up the debate considerably, this does not enhance the discussion. I think it would have been better if that word were left out.
 
Wait a second Hans. I am not trying to jerk your chain here. I am trying to constructively put this discussion forward.
I didn't think you were trying to yank my chain. I thought you were either not thinking your argument through or not presenting it in a way that I could understand.

Your example of the five characters where one of them is a multi planet(or subsector) domain noble is what I was trying to answer. The thread has taken as definition the typical traveller game is one where the players are trying to make their next mortgage payment or evade skip jackers. With in that definition, clearly it is not possible to run a typical game.
I had asked people who were (as I see it) arguing that it WAS possible to run a typical game that included a high-level noble and his entourage. Not, of course, running a free trader, but doing things that worked in a similar fashion for a face to face game. You answered (paraphrased) "the same sort of things President Bartlet and his senior advisors would do".

But I don't see what sort of adventures I would put a group of players playing President Bartlet and his chief advisors through either. So I need some elucidation if I'm to figure it out.

I was trying to answer the question of how the rest of the players could get share meaningful dramatic focus. As a confession, I have not watched the West Wing show. I just know that it is a show that ran for 80 or so episdoes. I could not imaging that it would have survived with the president character dominating all of the camera time. I know that the show focussed upon all of the functionaries and people they encounter.
Not all gripping stories are suitable for typical roleplaying campaigns. I did see The West Wing and enjoyed it very much, but the events there never once sparked an idea for a roleplaying campaign.

What makes these high power games work is that no matter how much power you have, no matter how wealthy, you must have goals which exceed your grasp. Otherwise there is no drama. There is no conflict, no meaningful choices. By having this gap between what you want and what you have then you have a game to play. The functionaries (the other players) need to have their own agendas as well, otherwise they are just lackeys to be ordered around.
Have you ever run such a campaign? Do you have any concrete adventures to outline? Just a paragraph or two. "The President and his Chief of Staff and his Press Secretary and his Communications Director and his Deputy Chief of Staff are working when [something happens]. What do you do?" It's the something that happens that eludes me.

Another way to do it would be, as I think it was mentioned up thread, to run it in an Ars Magica fashion. Each of the players would make up a Noble and the players would take turns running an adventure, one person would play a noble at a time. From what I understand there were many times in feudal history that the king was not over powerful in comparison to his dukes. So just because you are the highest SOC noble at the table does not mean that you can simply push everyone else around.
I don't think pushing other PCs around is the problem with having archdukes and emperors for PCs.

You are completely correct in saying that the typical travleller game would simply not work. You could not start the game with "You are stuck on Argle Bargle and you need to earn enough to get a mid passage off world . . ." This does not mean that you could not run a game.
So people keep telling me. But it does mean that I can't think of what sort of adventures to run. And apparently I'm going to need more than assurances that it's perfectly possible to kick my sluggish imagination into gear. I'm pretty sure I'm going to need concrete examples.

I think that it is unfortunate that the OP put the word "normal" in the question. It muddies up the debate considerably, this does not enhance the discussion. I think it would have been better if that word were left out.
But there's no problem with coming up with an extraordinary adventure. "There's a revolution and the Emperor, his bodyguard, the Chamberlain, and a girl who came out of a cake barely escapes on a small 3,000T destroyer run by a lowly Lieutenant Commander. The ship will have to dodge rebel forces and make its way across the Imperium to join up with the loyalists near the border"


Hans
 
I know that. I ran such a "Great Game" a long time ago, with some of my friends taking the parts of rulers in my Fantasy campaign world. But that was run by mail, not face to face.
Hans

I suppose the difficulty with playing PE rulers FtF is that they're generally not working together. The trick would be to get them working as a team, and the only way to do that is with a common enemy - an invasion from outside with the invaders run by the GM.

"The President and his Chief of Staff and his Press Secretary and his Communications Director and his Deputy Chief of Staff are working when [something happens]. What do you do?" It's the something that happens that eludes me.
Hans

Foreign/alien/revolutionary bomb/forces destroy/invade the presidential palace, a group of people have to escape is, as you suggest, just about the only way to go, apart from displaced heir seeks to regain his rightful place.

I'll readily agree that fifteen men sitting round a boardroom table discussing finance and politics doesn't generally make for a good RPG, and that's what people at that level spend their time doing. Put them on a deadman's chest instead and you've got a game. :)
 
In Traveller nothing is impossible.You want to play an emperor do so. I dont play with the OTU much at all myself.
 
Back
Top