Anyone else burning with anticipation for the Darrian Book??

[ThunderChilde]

My campaign has bounced around the Darrian sector, they've been involved in a few things there too. Even though I may well have to modify some of it, I really want to see thier take on them.

For the record, I've never had the opportunity to crack the cover of the old Darrian book. All I've got on them is Wikipedia, a few websites and Spinward Marches book. Never seen whatever SJ might have on them either.

I liked the Aslan book, haven't grabbed the Vargr book yet, soon though.

Anyone else waiting with bated breath?

 

[Jame]

Sorta - I'm burning with the desire to save up enough money for that, the Spinward Marches book (having decided that if MJD wrote it I should get it), the Psion book, the Merchant book and either the Aslan or Vargr book. So I'm burning with anticipation for money first, and then for several things to do with the money.

 

[aramis]

More like dread. They screw up canon left and right... Darrians will almost certainly be a serious FU...

 

[sfchbryan]

No, I am not

I am not too terribly impressed with MGT. So far, it is the only version of Traveller that I haven't lifted something.

 

[mbrinkhues]

With some luck MGT makes a good change to canon and kills them all off.

 

[Pete Nash]

More like dread. They screw up canon left and right... Darrians will almost certainly be a serious FU...

As the author of the forthcoming Darrians book, it appears that the supplement has already been judged and found guilty. Ho hum.

I'd just like to say that I did my best to stick to canon. The GDW book was used as the solid foundation, but of course new material had to be added to make a 128 page supplement out of the 30-something (non-scenario) pages of the original. Some new ideas were added, concepts extrapolated, and a bit of tongue in cheek squeezed in.

My primary objectives were to give the race some depth and break the space-elf stereotype. Secondly I tried my best to rationalise the odd questions how and why Darrian society collapsed so thoroughly and why it has taken such a long time to recover. The UWP oddities were given plausible explanations too.

Of course I'm in a 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation, since my explanations will no doubt be at odds with the dozens of different (and conflicting) views of the Darrians which have developed over the years.

But it would be nice if folks wait and read it before panning the book as another "serious FU"...

 

[rancke]

I'd just like to say that I did my best to stick to canon. The GDW book was used as the solid foundation, but of course new material had to be added to make a 128 page supplement out of the 30-something (non-scenario) pages of the original. Some new ideas were added, concepts extrapolated, and a bit of tongue in cheek squeezed in.

I'm fervently hoping you had a look at the writeup of the Darrians in GT:Humaniti too. As the author of that one, I spent considerable effort on getting it to work (including adding the span of history that was unaccountably missing from Darrians). Having my contribution to the Traveller canon overwritten because you disliked what I'd come up with is one thing; having it overwritten because it was completely ignored is something else entirely (Best of all, of course, would be to have it included into the newest version).

My primary objectives were to give the race some depth and break the space-elf stereotype. Secondly I tried my best to rationalise the odd questions how and why Darrian society collapsed so thoroughly and why it has taken such a long time to recover.

The collapse is not much of a mystery. Losing 80% of the population and every bit of electronics on Darrian would have to have quite an impact. All the other settlements were too small to maintain advanced technology when Darrian ceased to be a source of spare parts.

The UWP oddities were given plausible explanations too.

Splendid! I'm looking forward to seeing that.

Of course I'm in a 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation, since my explanations will no doubt be at odds with the dozens of different (and conflicting) views of the Darrians which have developed over the years.

The key word there is 'conflicting'. No fan has the right to expect new canon to fit with anything he has made up himself. As long as what you've written fits with previously published information (and isn't inconsistent in itself), no one has any legitimate beef.

Even if it does conflict, there's a world of difference between a deliberate change and a careless mistake.

As for non-careless mistakes, well, it happens. I know from personal experience how mistakes slip past the most rigorous editing. As long as you don't say "We meant to do that" and refuse to errata them, I have no quarrel.

And then, of course, there are the things that were broken in the original writeup; they ought to be changed (e.g. the electronic pulse frying electronics on worlds lightyears from Darrian; any pulse strong enough to fry electronics at at parsec's distance would have killed everyone on Darrian and any pulse weak enough to leave 20% of the population (and the biosphere) intact would be unable to fry electronics on Mire, let alone worlds further away).


Hans

 

[Pete Nash]

Having my contribution to the Traveller canon overwritten because you disliked what I'd come up with is one thing; having it overwritten because it was completely ignored is something entirely (Best of all, of course, would be to have it included into the newest version).

Oh dear. I'd better explain that the source material supplied to me for the project was a copy of GDW's Alien Module 8, MegaTraveller Journal #3 and The Spinward Marches Campaign. The intent was to extrapolate from the original classic Traveller material. I didn't even see Behind the Claw or Humaniti until I'd forked out to buy my own copies. By the time those arrived there was very little time to do anything more than try to preserve information in those two books which didn't contradict stuff I'd already written. I tried my best to harmonise (95%+ compatible perhaps), but there will be bits which have been ignored or overlooked. My sincere apologies.

The key word there is 'conflicting'. No fan has the right to expect new canon to fit with anything he has made up himself. As long as what you've written fits with previously published information (and isn't inconsistent in itself), no one has any legitimate beef.

I hope what I've written is internally consistent and preserves as much of the source material as possible. However as you've pointed out, there are some broken things which needed tweaking for the sake of common sense; the difficulties of low-g Darrians colonising worlds with vastly higher gravitation or atmospheric pressure for example.

And then, of course, there are the things that were broken in the original writeup; they ought to be changed (e.g. the electronic pulse frying electronics on worlds lightyears from Darrian; any pulse strong enough to fry electronics at at parsec's distance would have killed everyone on Darrian and any pulse weak enough to leave 20% of the population (and the biosphere) intact would be unable to fry electronics on Mire, let alone worlds further away).

This one was a quandary. Faced with weakening the Maghiz or the near total annihilation of Daryen, I went with the latter. How the Darrians managed to trigger such a flare in the first place also needed some addressing since the physics of such an event are implausible, even at TL16.

 

[Sturn]

Oh dear. I'd better explain that the source material supplied to me for the project was a copy of GDW's Alien Module 8, MegaTraveller Journal #3 and The Spinward Marches Campaign. The intent was to extrapolate from the original classic Traveller material. I didn't even see Behind the Claw or Humaniti until I'd forked out to buy my own copies. By the time those arrived......

I don't mean to be an arse, I'm a fan of MGT stuff. But, you are you telling us you were tasked to write a book on Darrians and didn't, at stage 1, look up the major sources of Darrian information out there? Thus we are going to be given another book that is going to directly conflict with past information on the Darrians adding to the confusion?

I understand your intent was to start with the classic material, but it would have been simple to get a copy of other major sources to make sure you didn't create more conflicts. Heck, I'm just a fan, not a writer of Traveller, and I already have the above sources on Darrians including the stuff you grabbed at the end. These aren't obscure sources or minor snippets of information missed.

Please don't brush this criticism off as a raving of a CotI fan (a stereotype shared by some at the MGT forum). I'm a MGT fan also. It just makes too much sense that the past material would be greatly researched, let along given a passing glance, before even starting such a project. This is just inviting more criticism which will probably be ignored as canon-rant, but shouldn't be. I'm not a canonista and this still greatly concerns me.

Imagine someone writing a book on the Wookie race for a Star Wars RPG only basing his research on Chewbacca in the original films while ignoring the information added to the race by the second trilogy.

 

[Pete Nash]

I don't mean to be an arse, I'm a fan of MGT stuff. But, you are you telling us you were tasked to write a book on Darrians and didn't, at stage 1, look up the major sources of Darrian information out there? Thus we are going to be given another book that is going to directly conflict with past information on the Darrians adding to the confusion?

Don't worry, I understand your concern.

Let me try to explain the situation. Firstly I was given the source material considered necessary for the project. Secondly, not everyone has complete access to all the material that has ever published about Traveller. Thirdly I did go out of my way at personal time and cost to indeed try to fill in possible holes in my knowledge of the subject. Fourthly I believe that the book will indeed support most of the previous information published (with necessary changes to fix broken bits of science or consistency).

To be fair, most of what was in Humaniti was simply reprising what had been published in Aliens Module 8, but done in a much more cohesive and accessible way.

I understand your intent was to start with the classic material, but it would have been simple to get a copy of other major sources to make sure you didn't create more conflicts. Heck, I'm just a fan, not a writer of Traveller, and I already have the above sources on Darrians including the stuff you grabbed at the end. These aren't obscure sources or minor snippets of information missed.

As a full time writer for Mongoose I was assigned to write Darrians as part of my work schedule and I used what was given to me. If it makes you feel any better, the final manuscript was sent to Marc for final approval. So if he had any problems with it I'm sure they were revised.

Just because I am a game writer it doesn't mean I have full access to a complete library. If you are lucky enough to own every publication to mention Darrians then good for you. Sadly, I do not and it is often impractical to expect the game company to hunt down and purchase a full back catalogue to send to their writers.

Please don't brush this criticism off as a raving of a CotI fan (a stereotype shared by some at the MGT forum). I'm a MGT fan also. It just makes too much sense that the past material would be greatly researched, let along given a passing glance, before even starting such a project. This is just inviting more criticism which will probably be ignored as canon-rant, but shouldn't be. I'm not a canonista and this still greatly concerns me.

Well I tried my best to do as much research as I could, in fact joining this forum as part of hunting down any hint of Darrian related information, views and opinions. I preserve almost all of the original information in the original book, and simply expand upon it. Apologies if one source was overlooked, but it was not for the lack of trying.

Imagine someone writing a book on the Wookie race for a Star Wars RPG only basing his research on Chewbacca in the original films while ignoring the information added to the race by the second trilogy.

In some cases that actually might not be a bad thing, the Dune sequels jumping to mind for some reason. I suppose I could have kept the canon from Roger Moore's article from JTAS14 and made them 1.6m tall...

 

[Sturn]

Thanks for the responses.

 

[aramis]

Given Matt's repeatedly expressed disdain for canon, I'm not surprised that all he gave you was AM 8, MTJ3, and SMC. The latter two don't have much... There's also the entry in JTAS, and the entry in supp 8, plus the later GT materials in BTC and GT:H, and also entries in TNE's Regency Sourcebook.

Quite simply put, it sounds like whomever is making the assessments has a gravely lacking knowledge of what's where, or possibly a willful desire to ignore non-CT materials.

Mongoose could have had a complete CT, JTAS, MT, and TNE collection for US $140... on CD. So really, there's little excuse for not having access to the GDW-canon materials.

It's that kind of procedure that makes anything OTU from Mongoose look decidedly dicey.

 

[rancke]

To be fair, most of what was in Humaniti was simply reprising what had been published in Aliens Module 8, but done in a much more cohesive and accessible way.

Thank you. That's what I was going for. But I did fill out some holes along the way, and assuming you filled out the same holes, the odds are that you filled them out differently, rendering my version wrong. Note that I'm not talking about better or worse, just about incompatible.

But that's water under the bridge.

Well I tried my best to do as much research as I could, in fact joining this forum as part of hunting down any hint of Darrian related information, views and opinions. I preserve almost all of the original information in the original book, and simply expand upon it. Apologies if one source was overlooked, but it was not for the lack of trying.

No use crying over spilled milk. I just wish I'd been able to help with the playtest.


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

The big question is wether GURPS:Traveller is part of canon and should/could be used as such. IMHO it is not due to it's many differences in Techlevels, Timelines, outlook on some parts of the 3I etc. So best to stick with the stuff written for GDW products. Given that MGT is a "remake" of Clunky it also makes sense IMHO to stick to the CT parts of canon and ignore Mega or TNE. Again the differences in outlook (TNE on nobles/the 3I vs. Clunky on nobles/3I) makes it easier to drop parts of the canon and go with the resonably coherent part of it.

 

[MongooseMatt]

The big question is wether GURPS:Traveller is part of canon

Bingo - and the answer is (this is from the top, mind, not my own personal view) that it isn't. Hence the materials Pete was given for this project (and yes, we have just about every item ever published for Traveller on file, going right back to some of the original fanzines).

We (and that includes myself) do _not_ have a disdain for canon. We do have a grasp of what is and isn't included in canon, and what within canon is a candidate for positive change.

As I have said before, if you believe the OTU canon should be set and immutable, then you already have your game out there in print. What we are doing is a continuation of that long journey.

 

[rancke]

The big question is wether GURPS:Traveller is part of canon and should/could be used as such.

That's two different questions. As I understand it, the answer to the first one is, no it's not part of canon (though I've been getting different signals on occasion). The answer to the other one is, why not? If someone (he said coyly) has already put some effort into consolidating and expanding a tiny corner of the Traveller Universe, why not take advantage of that? What, there aren't plenty of corners that hasn't been explored yet, so you need to hoard the few paltry bits that still remains to work on?

IMHO it is not due to it's many differences in Techlevels, Timelines, outlook on some parts of the 3I etc.

The tech levels is a problem, yes, though not one that can't be worked around, but just what parts of the writeup about the Darrians in GT:Humaniti differ when it comes to timelines and outlook from the Classic version? Granted, I added the bit of the timeline that was missing from the Classic writeup, but I don't think I did a bad job there.

So best to stick with the stuff written for GDW products. Given that MGT is a "remake" of Clunky it also makes sense IMHO to stick to the CT parts of canon and ignore Mega or TNE.

Given that it's desirable that a game universe is coherent and self-consistent (though both takes a back seat to supportive of playable and fun adventures and campaigns)), it makes a lot more sense to consider all the available material, weigh it against each other, and chose to perpetuate the bits that makes for a coherent, self-consistent game universe (that supports fun, playable adventures and campaigns).

Again the differences in outlook (TNE on nobles/the 3I vs. Clunky on nobles/3I) makes it easier to drop parts of the canon and go with the resonably coherent part of it.

Rather than sticking exclusively to a 30 year old set of scripture whether it makes sense or not and ignoring everything that has been built on that foundation in the years that followed? I couldn't agree more.


Hans

 

[Sturn]

Whether or not Gurps material is considered canon to me does not make a difference. As Rancke more elogantly said, why not use it if it doesn't conflict with classic canon?

Sure, if there is a direct conflict between canon and Gurps, go with canon. If there isn't, then keep it in. Lots of Traveller fans use the fluff books of Gurps even when not using its rules systems. If the Gurps material does not conflict with canon, please make future products that coincide with it.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Whether or not Gurps material is considered canon to me does not make a difference. As Rancke more elogantly said, why not use it if it doesn't conflict with classic canon?

Sure, if there is a direct conflict between canon and Gurps, go with canon. If there isn't, then keep it in. Lots of Traveller fans use the fluff books of Gurps even when not using its rules systems. If the Gurps material does not conflict with canon, please make future products that coincide with it.

If it is not canon it adds extra effort to the fact checking process and may end up with stuff to discuss. Effort == Money == Costs. So why not drop stuff that is "non canon" to begin with.

GT has some nice elements but overall it feels "less Traveller" to me than other materials. Maybe due to my preference of the "rotten/corrupt" Empire from MT/TNE that collides with the "happy/perfect" Empire as seen in GT.

And I like my Emperor with .357 caliber holes.

 

[Jame]

And I like my Emperor with .357 caliber holes.

TRAIIIIIITOOOOOOORRRRRRR!

:devil:

I am still looking forward to this book.

 

[rancke]

If it is not canon it adds extra effort to the fact checking process and may end up with stuff to discuss.

How? If it's not canon, your need to check it is exactly as great as your need to check stuff you come up with on your own. No more, no less.

Of course, when it comes to GT stuff, the odds are good that it is canon-compatible, although I'd be the first to admit that there were some mistakes made, especially with the early stuff. I know from personal experience that the editors put a great deal of effort into making GT material conform with previously published information.

GT has some nice elements but overall it feels "less Traveller" to me than other materials. Maybe due to my preference of the "rotten/corrupt" Empire from MT/TNE that collides with the "happy/perfect" Empire as seen in GT.

You mean the Imperium of the Rebellion? Not really going to show up a lot in MGT material. Or so I'd assume.

And I like my Emperor with .357 caliber holes.

In 1105?


Hans