Any TL16 worlds covered in depth?
- Thread starter Morte
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mike wightman
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How Darrian was ever listed as TL16 is still a mystery to me 
In the CT Darrians Alien Module it gives the TL as between TL13 and 15, depending on what you are building. Even by 1200 and the Regency sourcebook, Darrian is still barely TL16, it's the Regency that does the full scale production runs, Darrian is more like a research station
Vincennes in the Deneb sector is a true TL16, pushing TL17, world. Unfortunately you can only find its details in DGP's MT Journal no. 3
In the CT Darrians Alien Module it gives the TL as between TL13 and 15, depending on what you are building. Even by 1200 and the Regency sourcebook, Darrian is still barely TL16, it's the Regency that does the full scale production runs, Darrian is more like a research station Vincennes in the Deneb sector is a true TL16, pushing TL17, world. Unfortunately you can only find its details in DGP's MT Journal no. 3
Simple. Original description of the Imperium says that TL 15 is the highest available. But world generation system allows the occasional rare TL 16 result. Authors of The Spinward Marches use the WGS to generate an entire sector full of randomly generated UWPs without bothering to vet them. When it comes time to explain the odd UWP, changing a digit here and there is either never contemplated or on principle not an option. So instead more or less lame explanations has to be concocted.
(Note: I'm not saying that many of the explanations concocted were not good, even brilliant on occasion and that it isn't a good thing to try real hard to come up with explanations to odd UWPs. I'm just saying that a few weren't and that sometimes it is better to give up and change something that to concoct a real belief suspender snapper).
Hans
mike wightman
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Darrian isn't in the Imperium, so the TL15 cap shouldn't apply anyway
But I accept your point, it was possibly a mistake that was rectified by downplaying Darrian's TL.
But I accept your point, it was possibly a mistake that was rectified by downplaying Darrian's TL.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Also, keep in mind that outside GT, TL16 isn't *that* big of a deal. The Regency Sourcebook goes to detail to point out that TL16 is an evolutionary step over TL15, not a revolutionary one. Consequently, whatever you have regarding a TL15 society probably works just dandy with a TL16 one.
(This doesn't apply to GT, where their screwy assignment of TTL -> GTL conversions cause TL16 to be a huge leap.)
Regarding Darrian, when it was first introduced in JTAS, it was given a "real" TL of about 12, though that was quickly reconned up to 14. GT accepts the TL 14 designation.
In 1202, however, it needs to be pointed out that Darrian really is TL16. The fact that the Regency makes all of the TL16 warships is an industrial capacity and political issue, not a technological issue. The TNE Darrians (and the Regency itself at Vincennes and Mora) are fully TL16 capable.
The point about Vincennes is correct, though. It is a TL16 world in 1117, and borderline TL17 in 1202. If it really is detailed to any degree in MTJ #3, that would be a good resource.
(This doesn't apply to GT, where their screwy assignment of TTL -> GTL conversions cause TL16 to be a huge leap.)
Regarding Darrian, when it was first introduced in JTAS, it was given a "real" TL of about 12, though that was quickly reconned up to 14. GT accepts the TL 14 designation.
In 1202, however, it needs to be pointed out that Darrian really is TL16. The fact that the Regency makes all of the TL16 warships is an industrial capacity and political issue, not a technological issue. The TNE Darrians (and the Regency itself at Vincennes and Mora) are fully TL16 capable.
The point about Vincennes is correct, though. It is a TL16 world in 1117, and borderline TL17 in 1202. If it really is detailed to any degree in MTJ #3, that would be a good resource.
mike wightman
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A question was asked about Massilia Sector, the setting for Knightfall, in a digest magazine. It was pointed out that Massilia has a large number of TL16 worlds. The reply was that this was intentional and that the central sectors of the MT Imperium had a bonus of +1 to their TL when generated.
True
. It's something I prefer to ignore as being contra-canonical. If a large number of high-population Imperial worlds really were fully TL 16, then TL 15 wouldn't be "highest Imperial". So they're not. QED. My preferred handwave is that all so-called TL 16 worlds are actually borderline TL 16 in one area or another. The source, possibly, of a small number of TL 16 prototype mcguffins, but not the source of a large number of TL 16 goods (Let alone starships).Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Begs the question, what were they replacing the TL15 Atlantic class Heavy Cruiser with, and how do you enhance the design to produce a more effective prototype?
Is the answer to be found in Deneb's TL16 Depot system?
Is the answer to be found in Deneb's TL16 Depot system?
A better TL 15 design. And, no, I don't know if the Atlantic was really such an inferior design that it needed to be replaced. But the text doesn't say it is being replaced by a TL 16 design, just they're being phased out. Maybe they're being replaced by a design of a different tonnage?
Hans
FrancoisUldry
SOC-10
Simple. Original description of the Imperium says that TL 15 is the highest available. But world generation system allows the occasional rare TL 16 result. Authors of The Spinward Marches use the WGS to generate an entire sector full of randomly generated UWPs without bothering to vet them. ]</font>[/QUOTE]Well, seeing some of the stuff in the related Alien Module... I think that the TL 16 is not accidental.
And the reason for it to be actually 12 to 14 is also not that bad.
I won't spoil any beans so I won't say more.
Francois
I dont agree that the TL16 in TD coreward sectors is contra canonical
'Canon' is an ever moving thing - no wonder a few are complaining about CT grogs frothing at mouth over change and the static 3I. Sorry guys, I hate to tell you this, but the 'canon' 3I changed over the years. TL F WAS the highest in 1105 but not in 1112 when many TD adventures were set (and buy an old TD to read what Mr Miller thought of DGP at the time [hint: it was positive])
The TL 16 in Trav Digest represents the evolution of teh Imperium from 1105 towards 1115 - many core worlds could have moved in this time, especially when TL 15 had been around for so long.
I just dont see the problem with Megatraveller adventures showing an upper limit of TL16 not TL15 unless the Imperium is a static body forever frozen at 1105.
In which case I will stop arguing with Traveller's detractors and join them, coz such a view is SAD SAD SAD!
'Canon' is an ever moving thing - no wonder a few are complaining about CT grogs frothing at mouth over change and the static 3I. Sorry guys, I hate to tell you this, but the 'canon' 3I changed over the years. TL F WAS the highest in 1105 but not in 1112 when many TD adventures were set (and buy an old TD to read what Mr Miller thought of DGP at the time [hint: it was positive])
The TL 16 in Trav Digest represents the evolution of teh Imperium from 1105 towards 1115 - many core worlds could have moved in this time, especially when TL 15 had been around for so long.
I just dont see the problem with Megatraveller adventures showing an upper limit of TL16 not TL15 unless the Imperium is a static body forever frozen at 1105.
In which case I will stop arguing with Traveller's detractors and join them, coz such a view is SAD SAD SAD!
It is, I admit, somewhat a matter of interpretation.
If the original text had said that the Imperium was TL 15 in 1105, then I'd have no objection to the notion that it had crossed an arbitrary dividing line between 1105 and 1115 and had become TL 16 by 1115. But it didn't. It said that TL 15 was the highest available in the Imperium. In other words, no tech level 16 equipment was freely available anywhere in the Imperium (An interpretation that is backed up by the scarcity (lack?) of TL 16 equipment listed)
I interpret the statement that a given world is of a given TL to mean that a large majority of the population have free access to tools and goods produced at that TL in a majority (not necessarily all) of the technical fields. I also interpret the statement that an interstellar society is of a given TL to mean that a decent number of its major worlds are that TL (And by 'decent number' im mean that most of it's navy is (or could be) composed of ships of that TL). In other words, a world or polity isn't TL X until it makes a noticable difference. A few prototypes don't do it.
I don't think that it is likely that several scores worlds had no significant amount of TL 16 technology in 1105 but advanced to being fully TL in ten short years.
Oh, and if the Imperium really was TL 16 in 1116, then I'm sore at GDW and DGP for not providing a long list of TL 16 equipment
There are a few TL 16 weapons listed and there may be a few TL 16 dinguses I've forgotten about, but that's about it. Hans
FrancoisUldry
SOC-10
Personnally, seeing the Vilani mentality, I doubt that the imperium will have moved from TL 15 to TL 16 in 10 years.
Vilani are opposed to changes, inclined to use old and proven technologies against new toys, thus decreasing the spread of new techonologies accross the imperium.
My take is that most of the imperium is inhabited by Vilani Stock. The Solomani are pretty rare at the empire level (of course, you have statistical anomalies, like the Spinward Marches, which were colonized mainly by Solomani Stock. (Well, that need to be checked, but I remember reading that the colonizing drive came quite late, with a lot of solomani behind it).
So, technology is more likely to advance quickly in the Marches, but the starting point is so low as to make likely to reach high tech levels only in a few doyens of years.
My take on it.
Francois
Vilani are opposed to changes, inclined to use old and proven technologies against new toys, thus decreasing the spread of new techonologies accross the imperium.
My take is that most of the imperium is inhabited by Vilani Stock. The Solomani are pretty rare at the empire level (of course, you have statistical anomalies, like the Spinward Marches, which were colonized mainly by Solomani Stock. (Well, that need to be checked, but I remember reading that the colonizing drive came quite late, with a lot of solomani behind it).
So, technology is more likely to advance quickly in the Marches, but the starting point is so low as to make likely to reach high tech levels only in a few doyens of years.
My take on it.
Francois
Vladika
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GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Sabmiq is actually TL17, populated by fully sentient robots, and non-Imperial.
Oh, and if the Imperium really was TL 16 in 1116, then I'm sore at GDW and DGP for not providing a long list of TL 16 equipment
Hans
It's not like there's a lot of TL15 equipment listed, either.
Looking at MT IE, the following items have TL15 entries; underlining indicates introduced at that TL.
Bug Detector, Handheld Densitometer, Rope, NAS, Bioscanner, Vacc Suit, Tailored Vacc Suit, FGMP.
And for TL16:
FGMP, Plasma Rifle, Neural Pistol, Neural Rifle
In the MT RM, we get some other additions of note:
TL 15: Fusion PP, Fuel Cells, Storage Batteries, Jump 6, Avionics, Meson Comms, Radio Comms, Laser Comms, Maser Comms, Radio Jammers, Densitometers, Neutrino Sensors, NAS, Holorecorder, Spinal PA H/P/T, Spinal Meson J/R/T, 50Td Meson Bay, 100Td Missile/PA/Rep bays, 50Td Missile/PA/Plasma/Fusion/Repulsor Bays, PA Turrets, RPA/RPB/RPC Plasma Guns, RFX/RFY/FZ Fusion Guns, Point Defense Targeting Systems, Screens ...
TL 16: Fusion PP, Storage Batteries, Avionics, Meson Comms, Radio Comms, Laser Comms, Maser Comms, Radio Jammers, Densitometers, Neutrino Sensors, EMS Arrays, Spinal PA U, Spinal Meson U, 100Td Missile/PA/Repulsor/Meson/Tractor bays, 50Td Missile/PA/Plasma/Fusion/Repulsor Bays, Beam Laser Turrets, PA Turrets, Plasma Turrets, Sand Turrets, HE, KEAP rounds, RFX/RFY/RFZ Fusion Guns, Point Defense Targeting Systems, Screens ...
TL17: Coherent Superdense Armor, AM PP, Storage Batteries, Reduced Jump Fuel, Avionics, Meson Comms, Radio Comms, Laser Comms, Maser Comms, Radio Jammers, Spinal PA V, Spinal Meson V/X, Spinal Disintegrator A, 100Td Missile/PA/Repulsor/Meson/Tractor bays, 50Td Missile/PA/Plasma/Fusion/Repulsor Bays, Fusion Turrets, Screens, ...
So there's plenty - but it's almost all heavy weapons. I omitted the screens - but every kind of screen has entries for TL15/16/17 except white globes.
Oh, Fuel Purification and Computers continue to get better, too.
DGP's take on Tech Levels in the core seems to have been that many worlds had a few areas of TL 16 capability even in 1100... but that by 1116, a number of them had actually been implementing it widely enough to matter.
Grand Census broke out TL's before MT was published... based upon the categories in the CT TL tables.
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