All in the family

[jhulse]

It has bothered me from way back in the eighties about the capacity for a typical stateroom. A typical stateroom is roughly 10' x 15'. One person generally, or two at most per room. But as a liner or some other transport, I always thought back to passenger liners of the past, and even luxury cruise ships of today. A typical cruise today last around a week. A typical cruise ship room will bunk more than one or two people, especially when it comes to families. So, in Traveller, I always have noticed that "passengers" always tend to be business person, a scientist in route to a site, etc... but no families. If you walk into virtually any typical hotel room, you see two twin beds, a small kitchenette and a full sized bathroom. I have always thought of a stateroom in this way. As an Architect in real life, I will tell you the fact is that building codes always give the "minimum" requirements. So I have always thought of the typical 4 ton stateroom as "minimal". Has anyone developed staterooms that can hold a family of four on a trip to grandma's house, or on a family vacation? Shouldn't the 800ton liner be equipped to handle more than just one person per stateroom? You should be able to fit 2 twin sized beds in typical stateroom? Can't you simply double the cost for the life support portion of the stateroom? Surely thousands of years in the future an airhandling unit should be able to handle 2 adults and 2 children... Lend me your thoughts on this issue, and if anyone has developed facilities like this and want to show off sketches or deck plans, that would be great too!
Lets make the future family friendly!
JakNaz

 

[Jame]

I always figured that the occupancy was too small for most usage. If you're travelling with your family, wouldn't you and your spouse sleep together (even if you're both going high passage)?

EDIT: And if you're travelling middle passage with some stranger, you wouldn't be sharing a bed, so that factors in more beds in one four-ton stateroom...

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
It has bothered me from way back in the eighties about the capacity for a typical stateroom. A typical stateroom is roughly 10' x 15'. One person generally, or two at most per room. But as a liner or some other transport, I always thought back to passenger liners of the past, and even luxury cruise ships of today. A typical cruise today last around a week.

But today's typical average tramp freighter trip is one month (minimum two weeks, max three months).

Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
A typical cruise ship room will bunk more than one or two people, especially when it comes to families.

Modern cruise ships standard rooms are based on an occupancy of two. There are always larger rooms available. Royal Caribbean's "of the Seas" line of giant passenger liners offer 15+ different standard rooms and suites. Disney likes to make itself family friendly by offering an extra 1/2 bath in many rooms (and builds in more 3+ rooms for family reasons, as well).

Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
So, in Traveller, I always have noticed that "passengers" always tend to be business person, a scientist in route to a site, etc... but no families.

Yes, I always had some trouble with that, as well. But, if you look at even the cost of Mid Psg, 8000Cr, and in T20 the Double Occupancy charge for two passengers is 13,000Cr. A Family of four would require 26,000Cr, a family of 5, 32,000Cr. Larger private rooms would only cause the price to go up, not down. Large bunk rooms are restricted to the military (at least, IMTU). Fortunately, given the populations involved, there is a largish (not by percentage, but by total numbers) group of families who probably have the spare money to travel this way.

Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
If you walk into virtually any typical hotel room, you see two twin beds,

King or 2 Doubles, actually.

Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
a small kitchenette and a full sized bathroom. I have always thought of a stateroom in this way.

Historically, staterooms have been smaller than comparably classed hotel rooms, for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
As an Architect in real life, I will tell you the fact is that building codes always give the "minimum" requirements. So I have always thought of the typical 4 ton stateroom as "minimal". Has anyone developed staterooms that can hold a family of four on a trip to grandma's house, or on a family vacation?

I've done some minimal work on it.

Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
Shouldn't the 800ton liner be equipped to handle more than just one person per stateroom? You should be able to fit 2 twin sized beds in typical stateroom? Can't you simply double the cost for the life support portion of the stateroom? Surely thousands of years in the future an airhandling unit should be able to handle 2 adults and 2 children... Lend me your thoughts on this issue, and if anyone has developed facilities like this and want to show off sketches or deck plans, that would be great too!
Lets make the future family friendly!
JakNaz

The answer to the above is yes, double occupancy is possible, in T20, it is a standard feature.

 

[Shadowdancer]

I've always imagined the standard Traveller stateroom as having two fold-down beds in a bunk-bed configuration. If there is one person in the room, only one bed is folded out from the cabin wall for sleeping (he can pick upper or lower). For two people, both beds can be used, unless they want to sleep together snuggled really close.

This could be used for a family with children: mom and dad cramped in one bed, child or children in the other.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Paraquat Johnson:
I've always imagined the standard Traveller stateroom as having two fold-down beds in a bunk-bed configuration. If there is one person in the room, only one bed is folded out from the cabin wall for sleeping (he can pick upper or lower). For two people, both beds can be used, unless they want to sleep together snuggled really close.

In cruise ships, some beds fold down out of the ceiling.

However, the basic idea you've given is, I think, pretty close to straight OTU.

 

[BetterThanLife]

For families there is nothing stopping them from taking adjoining rooms, which may have a connecting door and, viola, instant family suite. Since the normal doors and walls, as opposed to bulkheads are simple privacy partitions it might even be doable on the fly. Given a couple of hours in port after selling hte tickets and there it is.

 

[savage]

I have suites of various sizes available...for bigger parties....

 

[RandyT0001]

Jak, it depends on how the naval architect makes his plans. If he is designing a free trader he will make a seperate passenger "stateroom", about 10' by 10'(100 sq ft), for each passenger. The lone passenger, a scientist journeying to a distant planet, can have his own private room without have to share his "stateroom" with somebody else. The family of four, husband, wife and two children would have to book four 10' by 10' "staterooms", usually located adjecent to each other. A free trader is not like a luxury cruise ship which most people of today vacation upon.
Now if the naval architect was to design a luxury 'cruise ship type' starship liner, of several thousand tons in size, (expecting couples and families to be the more prevelent passengers aboard) then he would design his "staterooms" to be about 15' by 15' (225 sq ft) for a couple or 20' by 20' (400 sq ft) for the family of four. The family size "stateroome' may be further subdivided into a small bedroom (9' by 10') for the children (with bunk beds)and a larger bedroom (11' by 10') with a queen/king sized bed for mom and pop. A bathroom (6' by 10') and a parlor (14' by 10') with couch, chair and entertainment console (combo TV and computer terminal) complete the family "stateroom". The cost for the family sized "stateroom" is Cr32,000 for middle passage and Cr40,000 for high passage. Unfortunately you really can't book the family "stateroom" to four individual passengers unless they are willing to share the accommodations. If you don't have a family travelling each jump on the 800 ton liner to occupy this type of "stateroom" then the ship looses money quickly due to inefficient use of space. This is my guess as to why you don't see a family sized "stateroom" on the 800 ton liners.

 

[jhulse]

I was a "hotel Architect" for the first 3 years of my career, so I automatically think of hotel rooms and/or suites when I invision a state room. But again, minimum requrements. I have sketches and some ACAD designs of various sized staterooms that I'll try to upload sometime soon. But I guess the good-ole fashioned way for a family to travel is...
"Martha, taint got enough money so you and the youngens gots to go in cold storage..."

 

[Captain Zoom]

I don't think I've seen anyone push this idea, but between the advance of technology and centuries of innovation, couldn't someone come up with flexible arrangements?

Super strong lightweight materials, advances in plug in fixtures, etc., could lead to reconfigurable living areas. A free trader might have 10 singles on one trip, then reconfigure for 5 singles, a double and a triple on another leg of the trip, and so on. Depending on technology and innovation, everything could be configurable, or might only be semi-configurable. For example, bathrooms might be fixed in common areas because of the plumbing requirements, but the staterooms themselves (without bathrooms) are configurable.

Even luxury liners might use the same technologies, or might employ a mixture of fixed staterooms at the luxury level, but configurable staterooms for common passengers.

Remember, a thin partition using today's technology might seem flimsy, but in Traveller, that same thin partition can be made of materials sronger than an inch-thick sheet of steel. Combine that with the concept of "memory" plastics (plastic knife?) allows for compact storage. Technology might even allow you to use the same piece different ways because the memory materials might shape themselves differently given different coded pulses, etc.

This is more brainstorming than anything else. I haven't tried to come up with anything specific.

 

[aramis]

Lets see, here, a typical stateroom contains, as a minimum:
2 bunks
Entertainment console
Fresher facilities (Perhaps communal)
LSS Slice (Except in MT, TNE, T4)
Clothing Locker

looking at floorplan considerations.
So....
Bunks: 2m x 0.1m OR 1.2m x 0.1m stowed, 2m x 0.6m as couch., 2m x 1.2m as single bed.
Entertainment console: Probably consists of a 0.1m x 1m footprint, and folds out to desk, terminal, and fold-away stool.
LSS Slice: call it a 0.5m x0.5m x0.5m chunk, and it makes a cool end table.
Clothing Locker: 1m x 0.5m. Could be arranged for one or two individuals, but this assumes one.
Fresher: Here we get into some needed special stuff. If the fresher is NOT a water closet nor imitation, then we need a basin (25x15cm is workable (10x6) with 0-G enclosure (roughly 30cm sphere is what I've seen on NASA footage). We also need a urine and feces collector; while not exactly comfy, a 10-15 cm wide trough 0.5m long should be easily useable; as a catch-basin mode, it then folds, and runs a cleaning cycle. Alternatively, a 30x50cm stool can hold a decent "0-G" toilet. Plumbing, however, is a problem for portability. A "Shower Tent" could be used, or a permanent shower installed, taking 1x1m; in theory, 1x1m of shower space could include (on the bias) the other fresher quipment. I, however, prefer to think that the in-room fresher is a hand-wash and catchbasin, taking about 0.5x0.25m of floorspace.

If we assume that the partition system is actually using, say, 0.5m spacing on-centers rails, with power and data connect, we can make all but the freshers mobile. Communal freshers make the fresher stand less needed, too, or it could be on a wall panel that runs a connect to the main water & blackwater lines.

 

[jhulse]

I have deck plans for a 300 ton freighter/adventure/bounty hunter ship... ok, anything a group of PC's could have fun in.
Anyway, I did everything in CAD. The corridor partitions are 4" thick, as well are the partitions separating the staterooms. Interior partitions of each stateroom are 2 or 3 inches thick "Bathroom and screen walls". I will have to transfer my CAD drawings from an old home computer to my office computer before I can make a pdf and attach it. Unfortunately my home pc is crapped out right now. :-(
I think I have a back up burnt on a CD but it may take some time to find it.
The ship is based on GURPS. I'm sort of in the middle of converting it to T20, but the "20%" of the hull for the bridge rule is REALLY screwing things up in the conversion! What a dumb rule in the first place! Can you imagine what a modern aircraft carrier or large destroyer today would look like if an entire 1/5 of the displacement tonnage was a bridge? Baffles the crap out of me why this is still part of T20, but I'll have to make due I guess...

Dismountable partitions saw a brief moment in the sun in the mid 70's in some large office spaces. The idea was to make a system of walls that could interconnect and change around as the client's needs changed. But it never worked that well because once rooms were in place, the tended to stay that way, and normal construcion was cheaper. I don't see any problem though to have some staterooms that can be Simi-adjustable. A wall separating two rooms could be made of 1.5 meter sections, then each pivot at the center and slide away into (via a hidden track in the floor and ceiling) and into a thin wall closet. The "wall closet" could be 1.5 meters wide, and only 10cm or so deep. Then you would have one large room. The same idea is done with conference rooms and meeting rooms every day in corporate America.
Street party going on downstairs now!
Got to run!
Have a good weekend all.
Jaknaz

 

[dancha]

Could you post a JPG or equivalent of the 300-ton vessel you've done in CAD?

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Whipsnade]

Mr. Nazrith,

An interesting topic and one that you as the GM can easily shape to fit the precepts of your Traveller Universe.

As a GM and for the purposes of IMTU, I quickly decided that there are usually permanent staterooms aboard commerical and paramilitary vessels. As other posters have pointed out, you can easily move walls, arrange furnishings, and whatnot to create the number and size of rooms you may need. For my purposes - and your's should vary - the term 'stateroom' is merely shorthand for a vessel's life support capacity. Each stateroom equals life support for two sophonts(1).

IMTU, unlike military vessels which are highly compartmentalized, commerical and paramilitary vessels are segregated into a relatively small number of pressure tight 'flats'. From a pressure boundary standpoint, a typical tramp frieghter would consist of only a few of these 'flats'; passenger accomodation, crew berthing, engineering, the bridge, cargo hold(s), etc. Other than one or two permanent staterooms that can act as 'safes', most of the space assigned as passenger accomodations or crew berthing can be easily and rapidly customized via moving walls, furnishings, etc.

And, yes, this does mean that a crew can turn what had been the passenger lounge and staterooms into a rough and ready cargo deck.

Another facet of MTU touches on this topic; low berths. IMTU, the majority of passenger traffic is via low berth. The berths are cheap, western airliner safe, and handled like cargo by reputable passenger 'lines'. These lines have most of the traffic between major worlds sewn up. It is only when you need to travel off the beaten path aboard a tramp that either you go 'warm' in a stateroom or trust a low berth technician you don't know. Of course that sort of travelling is the very type Travellers usually undertake!


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - two 'normal' sized sophonts. K'Kree and the pacifistic Imperial hexapods whose names escapes me obviously need more 'room' aka life support.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
I have deck plans for a 300 ton freighter/adventure/bounty hunter ship...
The ship is based on GURPS. I'm sort of in the middle of converting it to T20, but the "20%" of the hull for the bridge rule is REALLY screwing things up in the conversion!

Jak,

For Starships it's 2% or 20 tons, whichever is greater.

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
I'm sort of in the middle of converting it to T20, but the "20%" of the hull for the bridge rule is REALLY screwing things up in the conversion! What a dumb rule in the first place! Can you imagine what a modern aircraft carrier or large destroyer today would look like if an entire 1/5 of the displacement tonnage was a bridge? Baffles the crap out of me why this is still part of T20, but I'll have to make due I guess...

The 20% bridge doesn't mean that the entire 20% is devoted to the bridge proper. The 20% room includes space for airlocks, corridors, ship's lockers, galleys, and other space that make a ship "work." Basically, quite a bit of the 20% can be considered "slop" space required to make the ship's deckplans work.

Put another way, if the bridge space was *only* for the bridge, then designers should need to explicitly add space for an airlock, a ship's locker, storage, galleys, laundry, and other things which make the ship's work in addition to the corridors which can't be accounted for in the "stateroom" space. Doing things that way would be more realistic, but all designs would have to come with deckplans and considerably more accounting.

Ron

 

[BetterThanLife]

In CT Bridge space included such things as Avionics, Sensors, landing gear, airlocks, controls, the Captain's Office, CIC, etc. Though there is a point where the 2% really gets out of hand. I mean really, 2000 tons of bridge space per bridge? So to have a Bridge, auxillary control and a Flag Bridge I am using 6000 tons (Granted that is a 100,000 ton Battle Cruiser but still, even on those ships every ton counts especially since more than 50% of the ship is engines and fuel.)?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Ron Vutpakdi:
The 20% bridge doesn't mean that the entire 20% is devoted to the bridge proper.

A T20/HG2 "starship" bridge is 2% or 20 dTons, whichever is greater.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
In CT Bridge space included such things as Avionics, Sensors, landing gear, airlocks, controls, the Captain's Office, CIC, etc. Though there is a point where the 2% really gets out of hand. I mean really, 2000 tons of bridge space per bridge? So to have a Bridge, auxillary control and a Flag Bridge I am using 6000 tons (Granted that is a 100,000 ton Battle Cruiser but still, even on those ships every ton counts especially since more than 50% of the ship is engines and fuel.)?

For large vessels, you could, techincally, with clever layout and design, portion out the dTons from the standard 2% allotment between various compartments and can declare them "assigned" to any particular purpose. However, one "bridge" hit on the damage charts would render them all useless.

What there should be is a "Capital Ship Bridge" rule.

On vessels of 50K dTons and above, a Capital Ship Bridge or Advanced Capital Ship Bridge may be purchased.

Capital Ship Bridge: Cost is x .2 additional. The 2% dTons allotment is divided into two compartments, bridge, and backup bridge. Both are separate hits on the damage charts (and both may control the ship like a standard bridge).

Advanced Capital Ship Bridge: Cost is x .4 additional. The size increases to 3% of the ship's total dTons, but the allotment may now be divided into three compartments, bridge, backup bridge, and flag bridge. All are separate hits on the damage charts (and all may control the ship like a standard bridge).

Whenever a bridge hit is determined on the damage chart, for the Capital Ship Bridge roll d6: 1-3 for bridge hit and 4-6 for backup bridge hit, for the Advanced Capital Ship Bridge roll d6: 1-2 for bridge hit and 3-4 for backup bridge hit, 5-6 for flag bridge hit.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
In CT Bridge space included such things as Avionics, Sensors, landing gear, airlocks, controls, the Captain's Office, CIC, etc. Though there is a point where the 2% really gets out of hand. I mean really, 2000 tons of bridge space per bridge? So to have a Bridge, auxillary control and a Flag Bridge I am using 6000 tons (Granted that is a 100,000 ton Battle Cruiser but still, even on those ships every ton counts especially since more than 50% of the ship is engines and fuel.)?

For large vessels, you could, techincally, with clever layout and design, portion out the dTons from the standard 2% allotment between various compartments and can declare them "assigned" to any particular purpose. However, one "bridge" hit on the damage charts would render them all useless.

What there should be is a "Capital Ship Bridge" rule.

On vessels of 50K dTons and above, a Capital Ship Bridge or Advanced Capital Ship Bridge may be purchased.

Capital Ship Bridge: Cost is x .2 additional. The 2% dTons allotment is divided into two compartments, bridge, and backup bridge. Both are separate hits on the damage charts (and both may control the ship like a standard bridge).

Advanced Capital Ship Bridge: Cost is x .4 additional. The size increases to 3% of the ship's total dTons, but the allotment may now be divided into three compartments, bridge, backup bridge, and flag bridge. All are separate hits on the damage charts (and all may control the ship like a standard bridge).

Whenever a bridge hit is determined on the damage chart, for the Capital Ship Bridge roll d6: 1-3 for bridge hit and 4-6 for backup bridge hit, for the Advanced Capital Ship Bridge roll d6: 1-2 for bridge hit and 3-4 for backup bridge hit, 5-6 for flag bridge hit. </font>[/QUOTE]I like it. It doesn't fit with the intention of the rules. But I like it!