Alenzar / Reidain / 3229 Foreven

[robject]

So, looking at Double Adventure 5, I see these things about Alenzar and the Reidain subsector:

</font>

• Primary is an old, red star</font>
• Alenzar belt is very close to the star</font>
• Chamax is possibly the next orbit out</font>
• They are the only things in the system</font>
• There are "good trade opportunities" further into the subsector*</font>

* This presumes a natural path into the subsector from Alenzar.

Primary Star

Is it a main sequence?

If so, then the asteroid belt is at orbit Zero, and Chamax is at orbit One. Sounds pretty cozy.

Is it a giant?

If it's something like an M5 III, then the asteroid belt is going to be in orbit 4 or 5 (maybe?), and Chamax will be in orbit 6? Or 7?

Chamax

If Alenzar's primary is a giant, then the evolution of life on Chamax would have to be greatly accelerated. A lot. Improbably fast. Is that a problem, or just a quirk? (Is that being too geeky about the issue?)

Just how useful is a red star for life? I assume it's okay; life just has to adapt to the wavelength it's given, right?

Reidain

Since it's a "reserve" sector, I don't care much what people do with Foreven as a whole. But here's how I see it:

There are no Zhodani-controlled subsectors, thank you very much. Pocket empires are few, far between, and tiny. This is very much a proto-Traveller setting, to me.

Hollis does have an Imperial Scout base, but not a garrison, and the world and its starport isn't even Imperial.

This gives Hollis Orbital a nice, Babylon-5-like feel to it. An Imperial presence in a sea of Outback means perhaps there is trade opportunity, for those willing to take the risk.

In other words, this is a Silk Road-like setup.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by robject:
So, looking at Double Adventure 5, I see these things about Alenzar and the Reidain subsector: (snip)

Robject,

Oddly enough, I've recently been puttering around with Alenzar/Reidain myself. In addition to your list, I've also puzzled over the following:

- The "Invasion" of DA:5 takes place in 1105 and the sleeper/freezer ships are said to have taken 'about 400 years' to travel the one parsec between Alenzar and Raschev.

- An approximately 400 year travel time means that the Chamax sophonts fled their world due to the Chamax 'bugs' around 700 IE.

How was the Chamax sophont civilization somehow 'missed' by the various polities around them? Around 700 on Chamax, you've got a worldwide, industrialized civilization that is able to construct and launch STL ships with an intestellar range. How were they missed? Or, more accurately, why were they forgotten?

The Imperium has been in the Marches and beyond since the First Century. The Swordies arrived in the region much earlier than that. The Zhodani have been active in the region even longer, they spotted and kept under observation the post-Maghiz Darrian colonies. The Darrians themselves explored out to, roughly, 25 parsecs. The Chamax should have been spotted, but they seemingly weren't.

Why?

Anyone have any ideas? I have some poor ones, but does anyone else want to make a go of it? Anyone? Bueller?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[robject]

I've asked Daryen the same question, and he suggested a couple things. Mainly, he questions the usefulness or validity of the age of polities around Alenzar. And post-Maghiz Darrian he labels as "insular" to put it lightly.

It's possible that the Chamaxi, being few in number and slow in development, weren't sufficiently developed until after the Maghiz...

...as for Zhodani. Well, if they're oh-so-active in Foreven, then they have to know about Chamax. Maybe they caused their collapse, eh? An implanted suggestion in the right place... psst buddy, here's a formula that will kill those unwanted burrowing nuisances... solves all your problems...

But, in short, lots of questions. The busier you make the place, the less it makes sense, in my mind.

 

[BeRKA]

Alenzar is quite far away from Zhodani Space. Even if the Zhodani would have known about them, they would probably have ignored them.

It is closer to Avalar space. In my version of the Foreven Sector, the righthand-side of Avalar Space was just recently annexed, and was called the Kamrathi League. The Kamrathi might have known about the Chamaxi. They might have kept this information secret.

Maps of the Foreven Sector can be found here:
http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/FOREVEN/
or here:
http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/sector.pl?sector=FOREVEN
or here:
http://zho.berka.com/data/foreven/

 

[robject]

Yup, I consulted your maps yesterday, and they're excellently done.

 

[robject]

Here's the problem I have with the maps I've seen regarding Reidain. Alenzar is not much of a stepstone into the subsector's interior.

The only way I can see Alenzar being useful is if the players are coming out of the Five Sisters.

But, there appear to be plenty of avenues into the subsector, easier to get at from the Darrian or Vilis subsectors.

Hence my general feeling of dissatisfaction.

 

[graymask1120]

In answer to Bill*waves*, ISTR that the Chamaxi were not exactly space-heavy, and that their scientists only developed the STL sleeper ships in a last-ditch, crash program at the very end.

Considering how major events can be easily missed in Trav, even in relatively high-traffic areas, I doubt that anyone even noted the Chamaxi presence to start with.

 

[robject]

Thanks for the perspective, Gray; Sounds good.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by robject:
I've asked Daryen the same question, and he suggested a couple things. Mainly, he questions the usefulness or validity of the age of polities around Alenzar. And post-Maghiz Darrian he labels as "insular" to put it lightly.

It's possible that the Chamaxi, being few in number and slow in development, weren't sufficiently developed until after the Maghiz...

Actually, I've been looking for a race close to Darrian that the pre-Maghiz Darrians could attempt to uplift, only to make such a pig's breakfast of the attempt (having their upliftees start killing themselves off with sophisticated weapons, or perhaps letting some industrial process run amuck) that they became extremely reluctant to meddle with any other population group they ran into. The Chamax would work fine for that.

But that's by the way. I don't think it's possible that no one learned about the existence of the Chamax within a century or two after people began jumping around the region after the Long Night. The Scouts were doing long-range surveys half-way down Trojan Reach in the 2nd Century. It's pretty unlikely that they didn't do the same in Foreven. Even if they didn't, the First Survey seems the absolutely latest one can put discovery by the Scouts. Then there are all those adventuresome merchants nosing around for good trade opportunities and colony expeditions heading for Foreven and poins spinward.

But that doesn't mean that anyone would remember the Chamax in 1105. One day in 700, at four o'clock in the afternoon, some visiting trader or Darrian patrol or Imperial Scout arrives and finds the Chamax gone and the world absolutely useless.

Actually, a bit of canon revision -- not really a revision, more like an addition -- would probably help, maybe an interdict imposed by the Scouts and some corporate intrique that gets the files about Chamax erased and the interdiction lifted, just so that InStarSpec can set up mining in the belt. But the local InStarSpec manager is kept in the dark because his superiors think that what he don't know he can't blab about to the MoJ agents.


Hans

 

[robject]

I like that canon addendum. Sounds very in the spirit of Traveller, too.

 

[robject]

Thread Resurrect

To expand on things a bit, I've lately been looking at Foreven and Far Frontiers with something resembling distaste.

While it seems obvious that exploration and colonization should have extended two sectors spinward of the Imperium, I still don't like it, and so IMTU things are different.


Natural Path into Reidain

Alenzar is on a path into the subsector. The player's ship is a plain Type A. Therefore, I assume it's a jump-1 path. In other words, not the same as the current charts we have of Foreven.


My Proto-Traveller Setting

Hollis exists, has an Imperial Scout base, but not a garrison.

There is no Avalar Consulate, no Mnemosyne Principality, no Marrakesh Trade Assoc, no Katanga Empire, and the Zhodani are not in subsectors E or F -- and may not be in subsectors A and B, either.

Subsector N of Far Frontiers replaces Subsector N of Foreven. Its little pocket empires are the only ones in the sector.

... but now I'm concerned about the Keith Brothers' other adventures in the sector...

There are some other, "free", colonized worlds.

There are many uncolonized, "free" worlds, owned by unconquered "aliens".

There's no sector survey available to players.

 

[rancke]

While it seems obvious that exploration and colonization should have extended two sectors spinward of the Imperium, I still don't like it, and so IMTU things are different.

I assume you meant 'could' instead of 'should'.

My take on settlements is that the Regina Cluster was settled by people trying to get away from the Imperium at a time when the Imperium had (with a few exceptions, e.g. Mora) barely moved into the 2nd quadrant of Deneb, i.e. a full sector away. By 250 the Imperium had reached and absorbed the Regina Cluster. It's not inconceivable that someone trying to get away from the Imperium around that time would go two full sectors away. OTOH, it's very far from being a given that any did.

Alenzar is on a path into the subsector. The player's ship is a plain Type A. Therefore, I assume it's a jump-1 path. In other words, not the same as the current charts we have of Foreven.

Heh. Andor and Candory is completely surrounded by a three-parsec gap. Except, that is, for a world in Urnian that is only two parsecs away. So IMTU that system just doesn't exist.

There is no Avalar Consulate, no Mnemosyne Principality, no Marrakesh Trade Assoc, no Katanga Empire, and the Zhodani are not in subsectors E or F -- and may not be in subsectors A and B, either.

IMTU the Avalar Consulate is actually the Weltenbund, a neutral-leaning-towards-the-Imperium confederation that was settled during the Pacification Campaigns by exiles from Ephraim/Diaspora. Somewhere I have paper maps of settlement patterns for the first three or four centuries and half a dozen subsector listings for subsectors in Foreven. There's a world inhabited by Droyne and one inhabited by the Irari from GURPS Aliens. And there's a Big World (from Jack Vance's book of the same name) cognate called Lebensraum.

There are some other, "free", colonized worlds.

There are many uncolonized, "free" worlds, owned by unconquered "aliens".

Alien Realms has an adventure set on a world that isn't specifically located anywhere. From the internal evidence it almost has to be somewhere in Foreven.


Hans

 

[Vargas]

Personally I objected to any independent interstellar governments in Foreven. I figured if it was being reserved for players, it should have followed its own mandate.

 

[rancke]

Personally I objected to any independent interstellar governments in Foreven. I figured if it was being reserved for players, it should have followed its own mandate.

My objection to the whole notion is that it's completely superfluous (if I want to do something all my own in Foreven (or any other sector) for my own TU, I don't need anyone's permission to do so) and creates problems for anyone working the 'edges' of Foreven for official publications. I would have loved to do a bit about spinward interactions when I wrote up the Darrians for Humaniti, but all I could do was an apologetic sidebar explaining why I hadn't.

Over on the Traveller wiki, Foreven is being 'filled up' with text taken from someone's personal TU, which has resulted in a severe case of duplications, since the guy had cut and pasted a lot of FASA's material about the Far Frontiers.



Hans

 

[robject]

First, my apologies to people like GypsyComet, who worked hard on Foreven and Far Frontiers. Even though MTU is MTU, I appreciate the effort spent adding to the setting.

I assume you meant 'could' instead of 'should'.

Sure. My Marches is quite frontiersy. Still, it's easy to imagine that Scouts may have wandered far from the borders in the last 1000 years. But, I prefer to have unexplored territory close by.

Heh. Andor and Candory is completely surrounded by a three-parsec gap. Except, that is, for a world in Urnian that is only two parsecs away. So IMTU that system just doesn't exist.

That sounds quite reasonable to me.

...Alien Realms has an adventure set on a world that isn't specifically located anywhere. From the internal evidence it almost has to be somewhere in Foreven.

Thanks for giving some reasearch info, Hans.

Personally I objected to any independent interstellar governments in Foreven. I figured if it was being reserved for players, it should have followed its own mandate.

Well, it's non-canonical, if that helps. What's more, as referees we are free to trash any sector we want (ever been tempted to build the Proto-Imperium with a TL10 Regina?)

I'm not sure if I really want to shift the Keith Brothers' maps over to Foreven, but I do know that I don't like space being so claustrophobic.

 

[Vargas]

Well, it's non-canonical, if that helps.

It is? I was under the impression that what was published in Imperiallines was the sum total of all that was or ever would be published on that sector (DA5 not withstanding).

What's more, as referees we are free to trash any sector we want

Absolutely true, Foreven was just a means to give refs a spot in the OTU that they knew wouldn't be superceded.

 

[robject]

It is? I was under the impression that what was published in Imperiallines was the sum total of all that was or ever would be published on that sector (DA5 not withstanding).

Well, what do you know, there it is in the MT corpus. Five worlds and a splat-chart of the sector. I suppose it is canon.

So, I guess I have to say, in this case, sod canon.

My saying it doesn't make it so, of course. Marc and Mike Mikesh set the boundaries.

this is the only information that will
be published on the sector. Note that it does include
what little that has been previously published, but
leaves most of the details up to the user. We hope
that you'll enjoy the freedom !

Do you suppose more have enjoyed the freedom than not? Or do we naturally use the Foreven that GypsyComet and others have embellished for us? (And how much freedom is it, when the borders are already drawn anyway?)

Well, I could blather on and complain some more, or I can keep asking for suggestions and set things up the way I like.

 

[Vargas]

So, I guess I have to say, in this case, sod canon.

My saying it doesn't make it so, of course. Marc and Mike Mikesh set the boundaries.

Entirely true, they were set before Greg Videll joined the project (and he was all for a true blank slate, except for the DA5 worlds).

Do you suppose more have enjoyed the freedom than not? Or do we naturally use the Foreven that GypsyComet and others have embellished for us? (And how much freedom is it, when the borders are already drawn anyway?)

For me, if I were to use Foreven, it would be entirely on my own terms so, no, I wouldn't be reusing anyone else's work (including the stuff from Imperiallines).

Well, I could blather on and complain some more, or I can keep asking for suggestions and set things up the way I like.

Which is entirely in the spirit of that sector.

 

[rancke]

Marc and Mike Mikesh set the boundaries.

this is the only information that will be published on the sector. Note that it does include what little that has been previously published, but leaves most of the details up to the user. We hope that you'll enjoy the freedom!

Do you suppose more have enjoyed the freedom than not? Or do we naturally use the Foreven that GypsyComet and others have embellished for us? (And how much freedom is it, when the borders are already drawn anyway?)

Whatever we think of the freedom, it's one that we would have had anyway, whether Foreven had been made a blank space or not. Nothing requires us to stick to canon. The only real result is IMO a major downside: Those of us who want useful background material more than the freedom of a blank space won't ever get it. The only practical reason to stick to canon is to be able to use stuff other people create. But any stuff anyone creates for Foreven is almost guaranteed to differ from the stuff others have created. What's the upside to that?

Well, I could blather on and complain some more, or I can keep asking for suggestions and set things up the way I like.

I have a file of notes for work I and some others did in that region. We planned to open up a new frontier by retroactively wiping out the governments of roughly 7 subsectors of Vanguard Reaches and Beyond and substituting The Nomad Domain:

Nomad Domain: Area roughly comprised of subsectors H, K and L of Vanguard Reaches and subsectors E, F, G and I of Beyond. The area is dominated by a unique starfaring nomadic culture. Seven hordes have divided the area's systems between them and lives by exhorting what they need from the planetary populations. If they encounter resistance they bomb a part of the offending planet down to TL 0, which usually makes the rest of the planet toe the line. They stay for a year or two in each system, and then continue on to the next system. Before they leave a system they destroy as much of the local manufacturing capacity as possible, to ensure that the system will not grow strong enough to defy them when they return in 15 or 20 years. Rumour has it that in the few cases where a planet has succeeded in keeping a horde at bay, word has been sent to other hordes which thereupon have sent their own ships to help, resulting in the complete defeat and rape of the planet in question.

History: The history of the Nomad Domain is not known in details. The area is believed to have been settled during the Ramshakle Empire and to have lost all knowledge of jump technology when the Long Night fell. Sometime in the First Century one planet must have regained jump capability and started to explore the neighbouring worlds. Somehow some starships must have fallen into the hands of a primitive nomad tribe which used them to subjugate and plunder the original planet. They took slaves, and these slaves were forced to maintain the ships and build more.

An alternate theory has it that the nomads are the descendants of a beaten mercenary fleet from some unknown place that arrived in the area just as one or two planets were reaching TL 9. [Last update: 134-934]

The area would be opened up by the nomads suffering a massive defeat that reduced them to a dangerous nuisance, but would allow enterprising scouts to venture into the area with a decent chance of coming out alive -- given a bit of luck, of course .

We had a very vague idea of making the Other Side into a kind of interstellar India, with TL 9-12 "natives" and East India Company type corporations maintaining their own military forces out there playing off one "native prince" against another, warring with rival corporations and bringing back wealth to the Imperium from "halfway across the world".

If you're interested, I can send you a copy.


Hans

PS. Here's an ASCII map to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:

|                              |                              |
|                  Zhodani Consulate                          |
|                              |                              |
|                              |             _________________|_
|                              |          __/                 |
|                              |     ____/                    |
|         FAR FRONTIERS        |  __/     FOREVEN             | SPINWARD
|                          ____|_/                            | MARCHES
|            _____________/    | |              ___           |
|___________/   |              |/              /   \_         |
|               | Protectorate/|              /      \_       | Darrian
|               \            / |             | Welten- |      |
| Lots of small human states   |  ___        | bund __/       |
| detailed by FASA in various__|_/   \___    |     /          |
| publications.             /  |         \   |    |           |
|                           | Memosyne   /   /    |           |  Five
|                           |  |         |  /     |           | Sisters
|                    ^       \_|________/   |      \          |
|____________________|_________|_____________\______\_________|__________
|                    |         | _____       |      |   ____  |
|  VANGUARD REACHES  | Trelyn  |/Mape-\      |      |  /    \ |
|                    |         | pire |       \     |  |    | |
|       ?            |_________|\____/ BEYOND  \____| / Mal | | TROJAN
|                    __________|__________________   / G'Nar| | REACH
|                   /          |                   \ \_____/  |
|                   |          |                   |          |
|           ?       |          | Nomad             | Starless |
|                   |          | Domain            |   gap    |
|                    \___      |                __/  __       |
|  "The Other Side"      \____ |            ___/ ___/ |       |
|                             \|       ____/____/     |       |
|           ?                  |\_____/     \  Heptad |       |
|                           ?  |     __/\__  \________|       |
|                              |    /Zydar \                  |
|        ?            ?        |    \_____ /           Aslan  |
|                              |                Aslan         |
|                     Aslan?   |  Aslan  Aslan         Aslan  |
|______________________________|______________________________|__________

 

[robject]

The only real result is IMO a major downside: Those of us who want useful background material more than the freedom of a blank space won't ever get it. The only practical reason to stick to canon is to be able to use stuff other people create. But any stuff anyone creates for Foreven is almost guaranteed to differ from the stuff others have created. What's the upside to that?

I can't see an upside to that.