AHL-like damage for MT ( future combat variant planned )

[Ishmael]

Various ideas I care to share.....

I've thought about a different way to handle damage for MT. I've always liked the way stiker/AHL handled damage with 2d6+pen-Ar and wanted to try something along those lines with MT's combat. But I also prefer MT's combat over others because severity of damage depends on how much better your roll on the task is.

So I will try this.

(amount the task roll was made by)+1d6+pen-armor and use the table from AHL
the 1d6 could be used as a hit location roll
6=head
5=chest
4=abdomen
3=leg
2=arm
1= a scratch.

The final number - 3 could be the hits taken, to correspond with the AHL table

<4=no effect.................4 thru 7 is a light wound ( possible unconsious )
4= 1 hit.......................8 thru 11 is a major woulnd ( unconsious )
5= 2............................12 is death
6= 3
7= 4...........................use first aid rules immediately for long running battles
8= 5...........................( most combat ends before any major change occurs )
etc.

I still am looking for something this easy yet using MT's dam value somehow...but figured using bullet momentum

 

[Ishmael]

In order to seperate pen and damage, I think I will experiment with using the result of ('amount hit roll was exceeded ' + 1d6 + pen - armor) as a multiplier for damage. Damage vlaue for a weapon will be proportional to the momentum of the bullet/rock/etc. This should allow for difference in performance between high velocity, light projectiles and heavy slow ones. At similar muzzle energies, .54 Hawkins plains rifle will hurt at least as much ( and maybe more ) as a 5.56mm even though it wouldn't have as great penetration.

Momentum for melee weapons will be calculated for energy put into the weapon by user as a function of strength and number of action points spent swinging it.

based on naval rules for rowing, 10*strength watts per action point seems about right where one action point represents one second of time for an average 777 person. The number of action points available to a character is proportion to str+dex.
( I might change that as AHL AP's represent .5 secs of time )

something for me to tinker with....

 

[Ishmael]

....I've wanted to figure damage using muzzle energy for penetration and
bullet momentum for damage. I've discovered that FFS1 nearly does that already.
....Working out the relationship between muzzle energy and momentum,
momentum is proportional to the square root of energy. E=.5*m*V^2 and solving
for V gives v=sqrt(2*e/m). As momentum is v*m, I substitute the sqrt(2*e/m) as
v into that equation which gives momentum=sqrt(2*e*m). Therefore, momentum is
proportional to sqrt(e). FFS1 gives damage as sqrt(e)/15. The thing is, FFS1
assumes some constant bullet mass, which is not what I want.
....As I wish to relate damage to the AHL damage table with 1d6+pen-armor+
'amount to hit roll was made by, I have to relate the results of that table to
accepted damage methods. Striker, which uses the same table gives the hint that
light dam = 3d6 and heavy damage =6d6. It turns out that if I place that near
the center value of light damage, the number of d6 is half the number given on
the table. as follows...

roll+dm's   my damage in d6's   AHL damage   striker-CT damage
0                     0                  0   
1                     +.5                0
2                     1                  0
3                     1.5                0
4                     2               lt dam            3d6
5                     2.5             lt dam            3d6
6                     3               lt dam            3d6
7                     3.5             lt dam            3d6
8                     4              hvy dam            6d6
9                     4.5            hvy dam            6d6
10                    5              hvy dam            6d6
11                    5.5            hvy dam            6d6
12                    6               death            dead

....as you can see, although the relationship is not linear, its close enough with
the loss of exactness being made-up for in ease. The difference is small enough
for me to not worry about. And the error favors players lessing lethality a
small amount.

....The problem then remains that FFS1 assumes a constant bullet mass in
its damage value determination.To solve that, I figure a basic hit using a
mid-range weapon with known values in both FFS1 and MT; the tech13 7mm ACR with
pen 3, me~5000 joules and a bullet mass of about 8g. FFS1 does not give bullet
mass, but I found this via other methods, aka figuring volume of a rifle bullet
( from guns,guns,guns ) and multiplying it by density of lead.
....Figuring a base damage result using my system, I assume an average 1d6
roll of 3 and rolling to hit exactly, and a pen=3 gives a total 6 on that table
( avg 1d6 of 3 + pen=3 + exact roll, 0 + no armor;armor=0). With this result,
damage, in d6's, from momentum should give me '3'.
or

X*sqrt(2*e*m) where 'X' is some constant

3=X*sqrt(2*e*m)

based on my assumed values for muzzle energy and bullet mass, 'X' is pretty
close to .335

it follows then that damage = (bullet_momentum/3) d6's
This value is then multiplied by the following;
1d6+(amount hit roll was made by)+pen-armor

....another consideration is when this value falls into negative numbers which can
happen if armor is greater than pen. In this case, there are at least two
options...
....1. for every number less than 1, cut the damage in half in a manner similar to
the way danger space is handled.
....2. ignore it and say the shot hit but did no damage.

=============================================================================
.....It also occurs to me that this method could possibly have far greater
uses in working out damage...

....being hit by a bus...1d6 and armor would be only dm's into table, and use
momentum of bus for damage.

....falling out of a window...dm's are 1d6 and armor and use momentum of falling
body.

....in both instances the large object hitting the target is treated as a 'bullet'.
the bus hitting the target or the planet hitting the target...
in both cases, the 'reduction in damage similar to danger-space would have to be used.
but the momentum would be large possibly making it hurt really bad anyways.


....I don't know if these would give rational numbers yet, but I think it bears
looking into
==============================================================================

here's another bit'o'gristle to gnaw on...
have fun and don't rip me too much if its crap....I'm trying at least


I really need to learn how to make neat tables, eh?

 

[aramis]

My method:

Lay out the table using spaces (not tabs) in a text editor that doesn't support fonts, or using a monospaced font.

wrap it in code tags
[code] table goes here [/code]

to get a table that looks like

 table goes here

 

[atpollard]

....I've wanted to figure damage using muzzle energy for penetration and bullet momentum for damage.

I wonder if you have the role of momentum and energy reversed.

I remember reading about tests in which different bullets were fired into a homogenous substance (like mud or ballistic gel) and castings made of the holes. Large slow bullets made shallow but broad holes and small fast bullets made deep but narrow holes. Analysis of the holes showed that the depth of the hole varied with the momentum of the bullet and the total volume of the hole varied with the kinetic energy of the bullet.

Just trying to help.
Arthur

 

[Ishmael]

I wonder if you have the role of momentum and energy reversed.

I remember reading about tests in which different bullets were fired into a homogenous substance (like mud or ballistic gel) and castings made of the holes. Large slow bullets made shallow but broad holes and small fast bullets made deep but narrow holes. Analysis of the holes showed that the depth of the hole varied with the momentum of the bullet and the total volume of the hole varied with the kinetic energy of the bullet.

That sounds contradictory to me...large slow bullets have more mass and momentum than small fast bullets yet the large slow made shallow broad holes whereas small fast bullets made deep narrow holes. How does this jibe with high momentum=high pen?

I don't thnk I have them reversed.

Both FFS1 and guns,guns,guns MT conversions base penetration on muzzle energies per projectile frontal area. If I have it wrong, then I'm not alone.

There is a thread on COTI ( which I can't find now ), that discusses heavy slow bullets of old west weapons. This discussion turned me in the direction of using momenum for damage while using muzzle energy for pen.

Also, it appears to me that for a given constant muzzle energy, a really really fast ds round will penetrate deeper than a big slow basball-sized chuck'o'lead. If I do have it backwards, then small caliber (3mm) gauss guns must really suck again armor, eh?

I'll look into it to be certain.
thanks for the comment

 

[Ishmael]

I made a mistake a couple of posts ago...
in the damage equation, sqrt(2*e*m) IS momentum, so the square root of THAT needs to be taken.

dam=X* (2*e*m)^.25
in my test 7mmACR with 5000j muzzle energy and 8g bullet, 'X' turns out to equal 1

and it looks like I need to do more work as it gives bad numbers for falling damage ( earth hits body...use victim's momentum and mass )

perhaps making damage progression linear is bad bad bad

 

[aramis]

1: Pen is derived from sqrt(e) in TNE with a correction factor. the formula is in FF&S1, and is the same formula used in T2K.

2: 3g3 pen is energy density; energy over area. Damage for big stuff is based upon total energy.

Slow large rounds tend to have shallow and moderately wide stretch cavities, but tend to shed lots of energy on bones if they hit or hit close to them.
small fast rounds tend to go through and through unless there is armor or a bone hit, and create a long, thin stretch cavity.
Big fast rounds tend to leave an exit crater.... as the stretch cavity pulls tissue further than its breaking point. (see the 1990 FBI wound data publication....)

 

[Ishmael]

1: Pen is derived from sqrt(e) in TNE with a correction factor. the formula is in FF&S1, and is the same formula used in T2K.

actually, Damage=sqrt(e)/15 for small arms and related to warhead diameter for larger KEAP rounds ( this value is for use against humans and not vehicles )

pen is determined for both small arms and large KEAP rounds by energy; for small arms you choose pen value from a list keyed to ME and for KEAP you choose from list of equations relating penetration value to muzzle energy with capped results, again based on energy.

It can be shown that momentum is proportional to sqrt of energy, so FFS1 uses momentum with modifiers for damage. I have found that for energies in my ACR example, sqrt(e)/15 gives same 'damage' result assuming 8g bullet

2: 3g3 pen is energy density; energy over area. Damage for big stuff is based upon total energy.

based on ggg conersion articles, pen is related to DV which is based on energy per unit area

for larger weapons than small arms, damage is related to pen figures from the DV->conversion.

Damage to humans is capped at 3 with 4 assuming multiple impacts ( aka shotgun )

 

[Ishmael]

oh..I forgot to mention that I convert FFS1 values over to MT based on muzzle energies. I even worked out attenuation values. I'll post my conversion stuff when I get home from work. Its based on ggg's conversion but goes from muzzle energy directly instead of figuring ggg's DV value first.
=======================================================================

Weapon stats;
penetration=((Me*.735/b)^.25+5)/ 3 - 1 round down
damage= sqrt(Me)/20 round to nearest
I wasn't sure about this because most MT rounds top out at dam=3, then
supposedly, 'blow-thru' occurs
This is also the main part of what I'm looking to change
so 'damage' is in limbo right now
from 'gut feeling' tests using real word data compared to corresponding guns in
MT, it looks like I may settle with sqrt(momentum)..aka...(2*me*bullet_mass)^.25

attenuation=sqrt(50*bullet_mass/b^2)/2+1.25 round to nearest
bullet_vol=b^3*(.785*(Q-1)-.262)/1000 cm^3
bullet_mass=sg*bullet_vol grams
muzzle_velocity=sqrt(Me*21630/bullet_mass)/3.28 m/s


Me=muzzle energy in joules
b=weapon bore in millimeters
Q= length/width ratio of bullet ( 1=sphere,2=pistol bullet,3=rifle
bullet..etc..10=sabot penetrator )
if sabot penetrator is used with l/w=10, then b= diameter of
penetrator...not of barrel
sg= specific gravity of bullet material
take this info from armor material lists in tonnes/m^3

For the most part, this is taken from guns,guns.guns but with my own
attenuation model and conversions to use 'muzzle energy' as opposed to ggg's DV
value

=================================

I envision a similar design sequence for melee weapons with the 'muzzle energy' coming from muscle power and time invested in the swing.
So far, from T.McInnis' (sp?) rowing rules, it looks like a human can generate 10j per strength point. If I set an arbitrary action point as being one second long, total energy might be str*10*ap swinging. Penetration would be this energy put into a slender edge or sharp point and damage coming from momentum of weighted section of sword/ax/club. I expect the momentum model of damage to be more important here than in guns. I'll have to see how it goes.

So far, falling damage is off from MT's rules for falling from ht's greater than 9m..MT does not specify damage for failures from less than 9m. Again, I'll have to see how it goes.

a unified kinetic energy damage model would be nice, imho.

 

[Ishmael]

I think I have it now...

a mistake first...
when I figured dam based on my moemntum equation, I figured it for 3d6 as that was the datapoint i chose using the ACR.. What I needed was to figure it for 1d6 so it could be multiplied by the multiplier from the chart. That multiplier is what turns it into 3d6. Therefore, damage should be
dam=((2*e*m)^.25)/3
happily, this puts damage into the right ballpark for the one part in the MT rules about falling damage...8pts for a fall of 9m or more.. A fall of 9m in a 1g field of a man massing 80kg gives damage a bit more than 10. On the damage table, the amount the success roll for AVOIDING damage might then be a -dm and significantly lessen that damage...maybe -dm's for soft ground. Phy stat dm's already figure into the task roll. I'd go so far to say that a controlled fall would automatically set the '1d6' to '1' but uncontrolled falls roll it as for normal damage; maybe the guy lands on his head. In this manner..high falls might be miraculously survivable and low falls might hurt more than you'd think.

Using the sqrt(mom)/3 also brings other numbers into line...a 9mm penetrates better but does less damage ( potentially) than a .45 auto. Actual damage in practice is probably the same or greater because of the higher pen, but the higher momentum of the .45 bullet will cause knockback of target.

NO..not cinematic knockback with flying bodies....but a .45 slug would cause a 100kg rigid body to move backwards at little over an 50mm/sec..not much and a human is a soft-body so it would not be noticable really...but it would move a block of wood. This idea of knockback would be more noticable, perhaps, for a pirate cannonball striking a guy in battledress....probably won't penetrate, bit it might hurt a bit and knock the guy down harder than he might expect...I'll have to give it a try. ( maybe not..imtu battledress is treated like one-man legged afv..a combat walker like a landmate from "Appleseed"

The entire idea of non-penetrating hits that hurt look best when handling melee weapons......now to prove it, eh?

I'll clean this all up and post it like I did my uwp variant.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alas..this is only good for kinetic weapons..not energy weapons ( lasers) nor hybrids ( fusion guns )

I will try assuming that lasers heat a spot on the target vaporising the bit'o'mass causing it to expand rapidly..a surface explosion or sorts with the energy of the laser beam per unit area ( some beam diameter will matter )
I have no idea yet, but its my next project.

 

[Ishmael]

I've cleaned the previous posts up a bit.
Keep in mind that I'm terrible at writing rules ( I'm better at poetry or prose )

http://moukotiger.googlepages.com/my_damage_system.doc

its experimental
have fun

 

[Ishmael]

I started working out methods for 'building' melee weapons, but found
that I needed to clarify certain movement and endurance use issues first. I'll
discuss those issues now and get them out of the way.

I will be using a system based on ideas in AHL, but with a few changes.
It will use 'action points' to determine movements and actions. Unlike AHL,
Players will not be given a single number in ALL cases. I will figure the
number of AP's available using str and dex; low stat characters will have less
AP's than high stat characters. At some point, the number of AP's available
will be modified by encumberance.
In order to do this in a way that seems simple to me, I set the time
per turn to 5 secs. and that each AP represents 1 sec's worth of activity for
an average 777 man. The number of AP's becomes (str+dex)/3 rounded to nearest
whole number. An FFF man will get 10 AP's per 5 sec turn.
Because actions can be done whle moving, I will seperate movement AP's
from action AP's. Movement dm's will affect actions....you can trot while
shooting a gun, but it will be very hard to hit. I will say that no actions can
be done while running due to flailing arms. ( I assume human bodies ). For a
man with 5 AP's, 5 AP's are available per turn for actions and 5 are available
for movement.
The number of AP's will be re-calculated to take damage into account. A
PC hit by gunfire will slow done. Endurance may be 'traded' to str as
'adrenaline'. Endurance is also spent ( -1) per turn that a player runs or is
engaged in melee combat. Points for endurance that was not lost to injury are
gained ( +1) per turn when NO activities are done. This will allow a character
to sprint faster by spending End as adrenaline and adding it to Str for the
turn, yet have to pause and rest a few moments to regain that Endurance before
continuing. Walking, trotting and non-melee actions neither add nor subtract
from End.
A character falls unconcious whenever his End drops to 0 Any damage
taken to End that makes it fall below 0 is put against Str or Dex at player's
choice. Trading End to Str for bursts of speed, etc., may not drop Endurance
below 1.

I worked on this now because I had to decide how End will be used in melee
combat. I'm pleased with it so far as it will make combat more tactical and not
everyone running around like energizer bunnies without stopping until one side
withdraws or dies.

I am still considering AP costs, but when one realises that in AHL, an AP
represents about .5 seconds, its easier to convert AHL numbers over. In my
system, because AP's are 1 sec for average joes, MT time increments can be
easily used as well.

One nice side effect is that figuring energy used in jumping straight up (
potential energy of mass at height at 1g ) The heights described in MT rulebook
falls into the ballpark for energy generated at 10w per Str assuming End is
used as I describe here.

I will still need to tinker with AP costs, movement rates and facing costs, but
I'll post that after I do melee weapons for now. I'll also work out in more
setail than I have now, actions in this combat system and how they relate to
movement and other things.