Adventure-Class Starships in T5

[Andrew Boulton]

I prefer smaller bridges as well; just not as small as yours. Although a 5t cockpit is a tempting idea...

It's not a case of liking smalller bridges, I just want them to be a *sensible* size. How big that actually is will vary from ship to ship, but for "adventure class" ships it needs to be big enough for about 2-5 workstations @1dt each, maybe 2dt if you want lots of room. Anything bigger is just silly.

 

[aramis]

It's not a case of liking smalller bridges, I just want them to be a *sensible* size. How big that actually is will vary from ship to ship, but for "adventure class" ships it needs to be big enough for about 2-5 workstations @1dt each, maybe 2dt if you want lots of room. Anything bigger is just silly.

Agreed. And what I'm seeing above looks rather silly.

 

[robject]

Agreed. And what I'm seeing above looks rather silly.

Then Traveller: The Silly Era it is!

 

[robject]

Safari Ship (type K)

Built on a type-B hull, the safari ship is an excursion vessel intended for trophy-taking (real or photographic) expeditions to other worlds. It has jump drive-B, maneuver drive-A, and power plant-B, giving a performance of jump-2 and 1-G acceleration. Fuel tankage for 40 tons supports one jump-2. A Fusion-plant-A powers the maneuver drive and normal operations for up to one year. The bridge is equipped with a computer Model/3. The hull is streamlined.

The ship has one hardpoint and one ton allocated to fire control. A double turret is installed, but no weapons are mounted. There are eleven staterooms and no low berths.

There are two ship's vehicles: an air/raft and a 20-ton launch. Cargo capacity is 4 tons.

Being a safari styled ship, the type K has some basic features. For customers wanting only to capture their animals, two separate caging areas are present. One is 10 tons in size, and able to reproduce any atmosphere natural for its occupants. The second is a 12 ton marine caging area, all in a single tank, which may be set for any pressure or simulated depth. There is also a 12 ton trophy lounge where holographs of all the crew's major kills are available for display.

The Safari Ship requires skill complements for pilot, astrogator, engineer, medic, and steward. A gunner and additional expedition personnel may be added. Note that the crew all hold double occupancy during operations. The pilot operates the launch; the steward operates the air/raft. The ship can carry a party of up to eight on expeditions; it does not engage in commercial passenger service. It costs MCr81.3 and takes 11 months to build.

Volume   Component              MCr
 (200)   Hull-B SL               8
   20    Bridge                  1.2
         - Model/3               - 
         - Sensors               -
   15    Jump-drive-B (J2)      20
    2    M-drive-A (M1)          4
    9    F+plant-A (100Mj)       9
    7    P-plant-B (200Mj)      16 
   40    Jump fuel               -
    1    Hardpoint (1)           -
   44    Staterooms (11)         5.5

    4    Air/Raft                0.6
   20    Launch                 10*
   22    Capture tanks (2)       5.5*
   12    Trophy Lounge           1.5*
    4    Cargo
-------- ----------------- ---------
                            MCr 81.3

Laboratory Ship (type L)

Using a 400-ton hull, the laboratory ship is a mobile base for scientific analysis and investigation. It mounts jump drive-D, maneuver drive-C, and power plant-D, giving a performance of jump-2 and 1-G
acceleration. Fuel tankage for 96 tons supports the power plant and one jump-2. Adjacent to the bridge is a model-3 computer. There are twenty staterooms and no low berths.

The ship has two hardpoints and two tons allocated to fire control. No weapons are installed. There are three ship's vehicles: two air/rafts and one 40-ton pinnace. Cargo capacity is 26 tons. Laboratory space equals 85 tons. The ship is unstreamlined.

The laboratory ship requires skill complements for pilot, astrogator, engineer, and medic. Gunners and scientific research personnel may be added. The pilot operates the pinnace; the engineers operate the air/rafts. The ship can carry 20 passengers (35 if double occupancy) on a noncommercial basis.
It costs MCr 132.4 and takes 14 months to build.

Volume   Component              MCr
 (400)   Hull-D (U)             16
   20    Bridge                  1.2
         - Model/3               -
         - Sensors               - 
   25    Jump-drive-D (J2)      40
    5    M-drive-C    (M1)      12
   13    P-plant-D (800Mj)      32
   80    Jump fuel               -
   16    Plant fuel (2wks)       - 
    2    Hardpoints (2)          -
   80    Staterooms (20)        10
    8    Air/Rafts (2)           1.2
   40    Pinnace                20
   85    Laboratory space 
   26    Cargo space
-------- ------------------ --------
                           MCr 132.4

Corsair (Type P)

Based on the type 400 hull, the corsair is fitted out with jump drive-D, maneuver drive-F, and power plant-F, giving it a capability for jump-2 and 3G acceleration. The bridge includes a computer Model/3. Most important to this ship are the three beam laser turrets. Ten staterooms serve as quarters for the crew (pilot, astrogator, three engineers, and five or more assorted thugs and cutthroats); twenty low berths are available for emergency use, or to hold captives. Fuel capacity is 104 tons, and cargo capacity is 168 tons.

Notable features on the corsair are large cargo doors and variable identification features. The large clamshell doors can open to reveal the entire cargo bay; the ship can accept a 100 ton ship into
its cargo bay. The ship has several centrally controlled identification features which can alter the shape and configuration of the ship at a moment's notice; fins retract or extend, modules appear or disappear, and radio emissions alter frequency and content. The ship's transponders can be altered to identify the vessel as having any of a variety of missions and identities.

The approximate value of the corsair is Cr145,000,000, but this price would be difficult to obtain on the open market, as the ship is a non-commercial type, and its lineage and paperwork are of uncertain origin. It could probably bring about one-quarter its value.

Volume  Component           MCr
 (400)  Hull-D              16
   20   Bridge               1
        - Model/3
        - V-Transponder

        - Sensors
   25   Jump-drive-D (J2)   40
   11   M-drive-F (M3)      24 
   19   P-plant-F (600Mj)   48
   80   Jump fuel
   24   Plant fuel (4wks)
    3   Hardpoints (3)
        Beam Lasers (3)      9 ???
   40   Staterooms (10)      5
   10   Low berths (20)      2
  168   Cargo bay 
------- -------------- ----------
                       MCr 145

 

[atpollard]

Be careful not to reduce the size of a bridge too far.

1. A pilot in a vacc suit will be about twice as bulky as the same pilot in a shirtsleeve. If you design a aircraft-like cockpit, be prepared for this scenario:
The ship takes a hit. The pilot suits up as the hull slowly decompresses. The pilot races to the controls … but stands helplessly staring through the cockpit door, unable to squeeze in. “Damn, I probably should have opted for the larger bridge.”

2. Ship decks are 3 meters tall. A suited figure could easily fit in a 1.5m x 3m floor area that is 1.5m tall (0.5 dTons) – including the seat and control panels. However the extra height brings the practical ‘minimum crew space’ to 1.5m x 3m floor area that is 3m tall (1.0 dTons) – with room for a suited crewman to climb over the space to get in and out. Small ‘cockpits’ will require ship plans to design half-height spaces, access crawl spaces and pay closer attention to how the spaces stack vertically. That works for me, but most people aren’t architects-civil engineers and would probably find that too much work for a game.

3. From the old Classic Traveller rules, the 20 dTon bridge tops out at a 1000 dTon ship with a 10 person bridge crew. That suggests that each bridge crewman requires about 2 dTons or a 3m cube. This also agrees fairly well with the 2 dTon minimum ‘cockpit’ for a small craft. While the 20 dTon (one-size-fits-all) Bridge is and has always been a problematic “Feature”, Spacecraft would seem to require more ‘bridge’ space than a car or aircraft with 1 dTon to 2 dTons per person seeming about right.
[Or 0.5 dTons minimum for a small craft-like ‘cockpit’ with a 1.5m ceiling.]

 

[atpollard]

It's not a case of liking smalller bridges, I just want them to be a *sensible* size. How big that actually is will vary from ship to ship, but for "adventure class" ships it needs to be big enough for about 2-5 workstations @1dt each, maybe 2dt if you want lots of room. Anything bigger is just silly.

I agree.

IMTU: I prefer to use 1 crew station (and crew member) per 100 dTons of ship as a guide. I like 2 dTon workstations (including circulation spaces and wrap around control panels). The rest of the 20 dTon 'bridge' just gets dumped into ship circulation, a medical locker, a crew break area, etc.

Taking a hint from passenger quarters, I assume that any space requires a 'core' of 1/2 the listed area with the remaining space being more flexible. For example, a 20 dTon jump drive would be 10 dTons of physical drive and 10 dTons of access circulation, control panels, parts lockers and perhaps an air lock to the crew part of the ship.

 

[robject]

I agree.

IMTU: I prefer to use 1 crew station (and crew member) per 100 dTons of ship as a guide. I like 2 dTon workstations (including circulation spaces and wrap around control panels). The rest of the 20 dTon 'bridge' just gets dumped into ship circulation, a medical locker, a crew break area, etc.

Taking a hint from passenger quarters, I assume that any space requires a 'core' of 1/2 the listed area with the remaining space being more flexible. For example, a 20 dTon jump drive would be 10 dTons of physical drive and 10 dTons of access circulation, control panels, parts lockers and perhaps an air lock to the crew part of the ship.

I've used that convention for bridges, too. Perhaps that will help rationalize the bridge's size.

Looking again at the Scout, its Cockpit is 3 tons (almost a misnomer to call it a "Bridge"), with 2 tons of Avionics adjacent and 4 tons of sensors just above and behind. With a little squinting, all three could be considered together as the "Bridge", except for the inconvenience of the sensors' location -- but perhaps rather than a hatch, the sensor area overlooks the cockpit to some degree, thereby breaking up the "bridge" into two connected sections. Thus a 9-ton bridge. Allow a ton for the computer and you've got 10 tons. Yes, some stretching is going on, but it's not unreasonable.

 

[PFVA63]

Control Space Size

Hi,

I think I'd caution against making Control Spaces/Bridges/Cockpits too small as well. Although there may be a tendancy to want to compare a starships control spaces to tose of a modern airplane, my suspicions are that since the starship may be out on a 3-4 week trip, maybe comparing to the control spaces of small ocean going modern ships may be worth considering.

Regards

PF

 

[aramis]

In which case they are stil about double the size, PFVA63... The bridge of a 98' landing craft was roughly 1.5m x2m. (I got to drive one for a bit. Was crowded with me and the Coxswain.)

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Looking again at the Scout, its Cockpit is 3 tons (almost a misnomer to call it a "Bridge"), with 2 tons of Avionics adjacent and 4 tons of sensors just above and behind. With a little squinting, all three could be considered together as the "Bridge", except for the inconvenience of the sensors' location -- but perhaps rather than a hatch, the sensor area overlooks the cockpit to some degree, thereby breaking up the "bridge" into two connected sections. Thus a 9-ton bridge. Allow a ton for the computer and you've got 10 tons. Yes, some stretching is going on, but it's not unreasonable.

I'll give you the avionics, maybe, (giving a 5dt bridge), but the computer is always considered separately, and as I said the sensors are extra.

I could accept a 10dt bridge only if it's explicitly stated that half of that is general crew areas.

 

[atpollard]

In which case they are still about double the size, PFVA63... The bridge of a 98' landing craft was roughly 1.5m x2m. (I got to drive one for a bit. Was crowded with me and the Coxswain.)

Try imagining operating that landing craft for an 8 hour shift. Two men on duty and everyone is wearing a hard diving suit. How large/small would you want the bridge to be.

Perhaps you intend to cross the Atlantic in your landing craft. How much GPS/radio/radar equipment would you want to add to that 'bridge'? Technically, a cell phone with built in GPS would be enough - but are you willing to bet your life on it?

 

[robject]

I'll give you the avionics, maybe, (giving a 5dt bridge), but the computer is always considered separately, and as I said the sensors are extra.

You'll go that far, but including volume for the computer and sensors is right out?

 

[PFVA63]

My thoughts on my previous post...

Hi,

With respect to my last post on pilot houses on small ocean going ships, I had based my comments on a small scale drawing I had for a 120ft Patrol Boat. Unfortunately I don't have that info with me today, but I do have some data on small ocean-going research ships from the website "researchvessels.org".

Below is a table on four ships from that site, where I have scaled the deck drawings provided and measured the size of the Pilot House & other apparent control stations, etc. I converted this data over to approximate DTons assuming a 1.5m x 1.5m (5ft x 5ft) square of deck area equals 1/2 a DTon.

From the data below which includes vessels ranging in size from 125 to 279ft in length, you can see that the smallest ship has 3.6 DTon Pilot house with an additional 0.4 DTons of Control space and the largest ship that I looked at has a Pilot House almost 15 Dtons. Since there were many additional ships at that site, including some substantially larger than what I looked at, I would think that having control spaces on a starship being between 10 and 20 Dtons doesn't seem all that large to me, especially considering some of the factors others have brought up such as the potential need to accommodate people in space suits, as well as the potential for the need for alot of electronics, etc for the sensors that the starship will likely need.

One other thought worth considering is that its not atypical on alot of ocean going ships to have a deck head/WC in the nearvicinity of the Pilot House so that if the officer on deck has to use the facilities he won't have to venture too far away from his station, and I suppose that you could consider that the 10 to 20 DTon Control space on a Starship may include this, if you think that 10 to 20 DTon is too much space for just the controls, etc.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Regards

PF

 

[aramis]

It would be doable. Uncomfortable, but doable.

And I don't see people working the bridges in TL8 Vacc Suits. TL12 are more like doing so in peacoats. Which both the Chief and I were wearing.

 

[atpollard]

It would be doable. Uncomfortable, but doable.

And I don't see people working the bridges in TL8 Vacc Suits. TL12 are more like doing so in peacoats. Which both the Chief and I were wearing.

I agree.

I was just pointing out that you might want to design a starship bridge for some 'worst case' events. Hull breached. Everyone in suits. Molten metal scattered across the bridge. Engineer needs to replace a panel to restore helm.

That's where a little more room would come in very handy - like 2 dTons per station instead of 1 dTon (or 0.5 dTons). The cockpit on an F4 works just fine - but you cannot repair it while in flight. That could prove deadly on a starship.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

You'll go that far, but including volume for the computer and sensors is right out?

Yes, because

a) we know how big the computers are, and this volume is in addition to the bridge.

b) we know the Scout/Courier has several dt of extra sensors that civilian ships don't.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

BTW, this is the 2.5dt Scout/Courier bridge as shown on the plans. Looks roomy enough to me.

 

[atpollard]

Good Job. A picture really is worth a thousand words!

In my opinion, 1 dTon of open space and control panels per crewman is a good figure. (0.5 dTons for small craft which are primarily serviced from the exterior in a protected space). I would just add another 1 dTon of actual equipment those panels connect to as part of the 'bridge' tonnage. This saves assigning space to every radar broadcater/reciever, every air filter unit, every avionics component, every hudraulic control actuator, etc.

[PS. those chairs might be a bit narrow for a TL 9 vacc suit ]

 

[Andrew Boulton]

FF&S says 14m3 (1dt) for a bridge workstation, half of which is empty space; normal workstations are 7m3.

 

[pendragonman]

Do we all gotta have that haircut?