A Universe without Artificial Gravity...

[Scarecrow]

I've had a perpendicular ship at the back of my head for a while now. It would only make sense in a universe without cheap artificial gravity and I was wondering, how would such a ship operate?

I seem to recall from the LBBs that the ship turns half way to it's destination. I've always assumed that even in Jump the ship would accelerate at 1G to create gravity for the crew and then half way, turn and decellerate at -1G for the same effect. Is that right?

Would the crew simply have no gravity for a week? That could be bad for health, and if that's the case, sort of makes perp ships pointless, as there's only really a 'down' when the ship is landed, in which case it'd just aswell be a 'plane' shape and layout.

Of course, atmospheric flight would require the ship to be highly streamlined too. None of this flying box nonsense.

What say you? What else would it affect, aside from Air-Rafts, Speeders and Grav-Carriers?

Crow

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Scarecrow:
I've had a perpendicular ship at the back of my head for a while now. It would only make sense in a universe without cheap artificial gravity and I was wondering, how would such a ship operate?

I seem to recall from the LBBs that the ship turns half way to it's destination. I've always assumed that even in Jump the ship would accelerate at 1G to create gravity for the crew and then half way, turn and decellerate at -1G for the same effect. Is that right?.

Not the way I've always imagined it myself but it could be. I picture the ship as more or less stationary relative to any valid frame of reference and not under acceleration while in jump space, irregardless of it's vector when it jumps. But then I'm also old school in that, as you note ship's accelerate out half way and turn around to decelerate and zero their vector before jumping or arriving at their destination. I've got negative DMs on jumping if you try to plot a course for a moving point and time the jump to go off just right. It's easier and safer to do a jump from a standing start than running, but running is doable.

So, when I considered my own low tech (or no grav) universe the normal space trips were no problem as you note. My solution for the week in jump was everybody, passengers and crew, went into low-berths for the journey and the ship's computer would wake them up when they come out of jump. Saved on life support, transport costs, and even normal space habitat requirements. Small cabins for everyone is enough for the short time most trips actually count outside of the low berths. Of course these are almost faultless lowberths.

I'm with you on addressing atmospheric flight a little more realistically too. I think you should make your main ship remain orbital though and use high power vtol rocket aircraft for cargo and passenger interface with world surfaces. But maybe that's just me.

What else would it affect? Only one thing leaps to mind. Orbital habitats. Going to have to make them spin gravity, which is cool.

Looking forward to your work Crow

 

[mike wightman]

You'd need a cheap method of getting stuff into orbit - that means much more advanced launch vehicles than we have today, tethers, and/or beanstalks to name a few ways of doing it.

 

[mike wightman]

And another thought - no gravity compensators so ships will rarely go over 1G.

If you put the jump point three to four days out from a planet at 1G, with a similar trip inbound, you could make the jump instantaneous without breaking the economics of Traveller trade.

 

[Scarecrow]

far-trader
I picture the ship as more or less stationary relative to any valid frame of reference and not under acceleration while in jump space, irregardless of it's vector when it jumps.

So there would be no gravity whilst in Jump? I actually quite like that idea, but as I said, that could mean health issues for regular travellers.

far-trader
I think you should make your main ship remain orbital

Sigg Oddra
You'd need a cheap method of getting stuff into orbit

I love the idea of Beanstalks and seperate landers. I love the idea of catching a lift into space and then a shuttle across to your ship. The ship I had in mind, though would be a self-contained unit that worked with Traveller's assumption that the fuel and M-Drives a ship has would allow for atmospheric escape.

Sigg Oddra
If you put the jump point three to four days out from a planet at 1G, with a similar trip inbound, you could make the jump instantaneous without breaking the economics of Traveller trade.

This is an idea that occured to me before and something else that I do rather like.

Crow

 

[vutpakdi]

You'd probably get ships with rotating sections for simulated gravity while in jump. Maybe a configuration that, while in transit under power, is perpendicular to the axis of thrust. Just before jump (or while coasting), the section swings out 90 deg and starts rotating.

There are a couple of Jovian Chronicles ships that have sections which do this 90 deg swing and then rotation.

Ron

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"I picture the ship as more or less stationary relative to any valid frame of reference and not under acceleration while in jump space"

Same here.

"You'd probably get ships with rotating sections for simulated gravity while in jump."

External sections (like B5's Earth ships or 2010's Leonov) might do nasty things to the jump bubble. Internal ones might be safer.

A week in 0g isn't too bad, though. Don't forget, without artificial gravity you're making space travel rarer, more expensive, and more dangerous.

 

[mike wightman]

There's an interesting discussion about spin gravity here.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Scarecrow:
I love the idea of Beanstalks and seperate landers. I love the idea of catching a lift into space and then a shuttle across to your ship. The ship I had in mind, though would be a self-contained unit that worked with Traveller's assumption that the fuel and M-Drives a ship has would allow for atmospheric escape.

It'd probably have to be some form of fission or fusion "lightbulb" type engine, in order to avoid irradiating the planet as you take off.
Here is an interesting article on the subject:
http://www.nuclearspace.com/a_liberty_ship.htm

The rest of the site is worth a look as well.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
And another thought - no gravity compensators so ships will rarely go over 1G.

If you put the jump point three to four days out from a planet at 1G, with a similar trip inbound, you could make the jump instantaneous without breaking the economics of Traveller trade.

But you break the nature of interstellar communications because all a government needs to do for "instant" communications is put a space station with X-boats out at the jump limit and radio the message from the planet to the station which has the X-boat immediately jump to the destination. Communications time between planets would fall to a couple of hours per jump.

 

[mike wightman]

Good point, in which case make the jump take a week to an outside observer, but instant for those on the jump ship.

You could go back to closer jump points then.

How about using stutterwarp and a 1G engine...

 

[Scarecrow]

Originally posted by Ron Vutpakdi:
Maybe a configuration that, while in transit under power, is perpendicular to the axis of thrust. Just before jump (or while coasting), the section swings out 90 deg and starts rotating.

Now that I like. I'm a sucker for flick/swing-out bits =)
Creative juices flowing...

Crow

 

[mike wightman]

The T2300 'verse is filled with such ships too.

Have a look at the starships section on the Etranger site...

 

[Scarecrow]

Yeah, Laurent Esmiol isn't half bad with the 3D stuff.

Crow

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Don't see why you would be limited to 1G accel with no grav compensators. You would be limited to 1G accel for long periods of time, but fighter pilots (from a real Air Force) regulary endure multi-second 6G accels without mechanical aids, and our current technology allows 9Gs with mechanical aids. With the proper tech, I could see 1 turn (old CT = 1000 seconds) 6G accels, with sustained 1G as the norm.

Two possibilities with this:
1) So, fighters become much more capable with this argument. They can wrap the pilot up in a G-bubble and outaccel those big ships full of folks trying to walk around to do their jobs. How does that impact combat?

2) Heavy-worlders gain an advantage with their ships. If your entire crew comes from a 1.75G world, your ship could be built to sustain 1.75G, with bursts higher than 6G possibly. How does that impact combat/recruiting/who runs things?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Scarecrow:
I love the idea of Beanstalks and seperate landers. I love the idea of catching a lift into space and then a shuttle across to your ship.

Same here

Originally posted by Scarecrow:
The ship I had in mind, though would be a self-contained unit that worked with Traveller's assumption that the fuel and M-Drives a ship has would allow for atmospheric escape.

Ah, but a big part of Traveller's assumption there relies on Contra-Grav to negate the effects of the gravity well on the ship and Grav tech based reactionless thrusters. Not that you can't lift if you do factor those in, just that it takes more fuel and more engines. A lot more.

Don't forget that depending on the rule system Traveller ships have a density several times their displacement, and that is probably conservative too. Without Contra-grav AND Grav Thrusters you need to balance the equation of thrust vs mass just to hover, and then go over that to get into space.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Don't see why you would be limited to 1G accel with no grav compensators. You would be limited to 1G accel for long periods of time, but fighter pilots (from a real Air Force) regulary endure multi-second 6G accels without mechanical aids, and our current technology allows 9Gs with mechanical aids. With the proper tech, I could see 1 turn (old CT = 1000 seconds) 6G accels, with sustained 1G as the norm.

Not for minutes at a time though. High Gs are usually only sustained for seconds at a time and usually only during hard evasion, and the pilots are concentrating on just two things flying and staying conscious, no way they can fight while under high Gs and they pass out if they go too long and/or hard. 15 minutes is way too long.

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Two possibilities with this:
1) So, fighters become much more capable with this argument. They can wrap the pilot up in a G-bubble and outaccel those big ships full of folks trying to walk around to do their jobs. How does that impact combat?

2) Heavy-worlders gain an advantage with their ships. If your entire crew comes from a 1.75G world, your ship could be built to sustain 1.75G, with bursts higher than 6G possibly. How does that impact combat/recruiting/who runs things?

Yep, more than 1G would be possible, even for extended periods. It'd be like working while wearing a heavy encumbering coverall with a weight equal to your own times the extra Gs. So you could use an individual's encumbrance limit to figure out how many extra Gs (fractionals actually) they could manage and still be unencumbered, lightly so, or more.

I do like the idea that fighters are fast and warships are slow and this is a good way to make that a fact.

And the heavy-G skill/adaptation finally has a real use. I can see it now. The Navy would recruit on high-G worlds and train special troops for its fast attack heavies. Not as fast as fighters (or the OTU big guns) but faster than all the regular ships.

So, three levels of combat ships then right?

The bulk of the fleet being slow and big, 1G standard perhaps with some emergency acceleration at higher rates requiring the crew to be strapped into accel couches allowing 2G. Anything beyond that, which might be included for fast response/escape would require the crew to go into G-tanks and turn over control of the ship to automatics, and we all know how the Imperium feels about that

The speed of the fleet will be fighters, small and capable of high Gs for limited periods with the crew in accel couches, and pressure suits, and trained for it. These could routinely operate up to 3G perhaps with short durations at higher Gs.

And the specialized heavies, able to operate at up to 2Gs routinely with emergency acceleration requiring the crew to be strapped into accel couches allowing 3G operations.

All in round simplistic numbers

A very different universe indeed. Bet you didn't know just how much was in it when you tipped over the bottle of Traveller Gravity Magic did you Crow

 

[mike wightman]

Some sort of surgery or bio-modification of the crew may be needed to endure 3+ G for an extended period, despite G suits etc.

I've googled human G tolerance, and the medical info contained therein says that the internal organs become displaced and the heart is put under considerable strain.

 

[mike wightman]

At the risk of going off topic, I think fighters would be better as remote controlled/UCSV (unmanned combat space vehicle), but if they do have to be manned then a control station/cockpit like in the Babylon 5 Starfury springs to mind...

 

[kafka47]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The T2300 'verse is filled with such ships too.

Have a look at the starships section on the Etranger site...

Colin, I hope that you were contacting this man when it comes around to doing the artwork for Ships. Simply amazing, this is what I would want to see more in Traveller! I know this is akin to Jessie's style but we see to few of that and this simply blows me away for starships.