CT can't accurately be said to have a task system at all. It has a ciollection of separate mechanics by diverse skills.
A review of T5
- Thread starter pendragonman
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CT can't accurately be said to have a task system at all. It has a ciollection of separate mechanics by diverse skills.
TNE had a roll under mechanic. (Stat+Skill)*(Difficulty of 0.25 to 4) or less on 1d20.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I think this can be debated. I refer to it as an "unstructured" task system, because, there are, indeed, tasks rolled during the game--those tasks are just rolled using the GM's particular guidelines and no structured system.
CT has a '(saving) throw system' very clearly defined in the LBB1 (Reprint edition) under Die Rolling Conventions. It can be used for task or any roll in the game as its very open ended to be sure. The only real limit comes from the 'required materials' list which states 'Six-sided dice are used.'
With regards to a 'task system', I think of it as an adhoc approach to throws with a collection of suggested skill based mechanics. A 'task system', only in the loosest sense for ease of comparison with editions that do - but, if asked if CT had a 'task system', I would say, not per se. By stating 'unstructured task system' the qualifier basically negates the actual idea of a 'system' when I use the phrase.
A matter of semantics and perception, I supposed. Though, I think there is some subtle importance to the notion that CT does not have a codified 'task system'.
With regards to a 'task system', I think of it as an adhoc approach to throws with a collection of suggested skill based mechanics. A 'task system', only in the loosest sense for ease of comparison with editions that do - but, if asked if CT had a 'task system', I would say, not per se. By stating 'unstructured task system' the qualifier basically negates the actual idea of a 'system' when I use the phrase.
A matter of semantics and perception, I supposed. Though, I think there is some subtle importance to the notion that CT does not have a codified 'task system'.
So when people say that Classic Traveller is great and it's the best ruleset, etc, and for 30 years they've been playing it... they're talking about this mechanic-less RPG.
Just messin'.
So when people say that Classic Traveller is great and it's the best ruleset, etc, and for 30 years they've been playing it... they're talking about this mechanic-less RPG.
Just messin'.
In all seriousness, there are several skill resolution mechanics of note in CT:
- if skill X+, benefit Y accrues. (EG: Vacc Suit 1 is required to wear Battledress Armor. EG: Str x1 can be carried without penalty.)
- 2d6+Skill±(1 from stat)±assorted modifiers for 8+ (combat rolls)
- 2d6+(X if skill Y)+ for Z+
- Xd6 for Attibute or less
IIRC, the fourth does not appear in the core rules, except in TTB... it appears in adventures.
S4: "Unstructured Task System" is an oxymoron, and hence fallacious. System and Structure are near-synonyms, and often comorbid; unstructured is almost dead on a guarantee of a lack of system.
CT lacks a task system, because it lacks structure for uniform resolution.
Without the common structure, which approach is used varies widely, and that's a bad thing IMO.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Yep.
It is a system--there are several examples in the book. And, throws are made to complete tasks, thus it is a task system.
"Task", "Throw", "Saving Throw", and "Roll" are all used interchangeably in most RPGs. Where one game may favore the term "Task", another may favore the term "Saving Throw".
For example, in Mercenaries, Spies & Private Eyes, the tasks are referred to as "Saving Throws", though other people might call them "Skill Throws" or "Tasks".
Disagreement: per what I say above.
Every game that throws dice has a task system.
If I used a d30 to make task throws in CT, I think most would agree that's a house rule and not a "legal" CT throw.
We recognize that because there is some common structure to CT throws.
Thus, CT does have a task system. The difference is that most people are used to black & white zebras and don't believe the orange & pink zebra that I'm describing.
I like both. I like hard structured tasks systems, and games where anything goes.
This is why some people prefer Classic Traveller over other versions. It's something personal to them. Classic Traveller may not have the same effect on those that come from various other RPG systems they've played already.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I think that can be said for any RPG, really. Preference. Acceptance and comfort.
I have a player that sometimes plays with me--has been playing with me for years. But, he'll only play D&D. That's it. That's all he wants to play. And, he wants AD&D 2E. I've gotten him to try a 3.5 AD&D game, but he didn't like it. He wants AD&D 2E (and, I think he'll play a 1E AD&D game, but not like it as much).
I've tried several times to get him to play Traveller with the rest of us, but he just won't. If he's not playing 2E AD&D, he'd rather not roleplay.
As for CT task system, it's as simple as this:
Does CT have a method for resolving tasks?
Yes it does, spelled out in the various examples and paragraphs on dice rolling conventions.
So, if it has a method of resolving tasks...then it does, indeed, have a task system.
For some, the first RPG played is their favorite one (depending on their age when they started playing RPGs though).
The shape of a d20 triggers something for some people. It has a gem look to it. It's twice as awesome as a d10. Characters level up and get all kinds of XP that can be traded in for cool stuff.
The moment they hear there's no leveling up in Traveller, they are not interested. And if you mention Traveller d20 to them, they ask where all the dragons are. And even if do you add dragons to Traveller, they are not the various colored kind of dragons that talk and cast spells and sleep on piles of treasure inside of dungeons.
If you want your friend "cured", point him to the YouTube RPG Brigade.
Tat there are examples that contradict each other makes it NOT A system. 4+ different methods do not a system make. There is no one, "Here's how to resolve tasks" system - there are a collection of overlapping methods. Small Craft can be used with the normal combat system, or with a unique dogfight system in the skill description.
We rule out solar system origins for retrograde comets on the basis of different direction.
There are several different methods of use for social skills. Flat table DRM's, Rolls for X+ modified by skill, and Roll allowed if skilled.
It's not even like old school AD&D, where the 6+ different kinds of rolls all have specific stable uses. (Combat Rolls {d20+mods, roll high}, Saving throws {d20, can't remember direction}, Thief Skills {D%, roll low}, Proficiency Checks {d20, roll low}, Initiative Rolls {1d6, roll high}, Turning Checks {2d6, roll high}, Attribute rolls {d20, roll low, and only found in adventures}, and Attribute Derived Tests {usually 1d6 or 1d10, such as Bend Bars/Lift Gates, or d% like Spell Learning})
Therefore, we shouldn't count the various mechanics as a singular system. It's not like D&D where there is almost no overlap, nor like MT and later, where it's a singular mechanic for almost all uses, nor even like Palladium and T&T where there are two non-overlapping systems (in both cases, Combat vs Everything Else).
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
I sent you a PM on this.
As BytePro said, Die Rolling Conventions gives us guidelines for rolling tasks, supported by the various examples in the rules.
As I said above, if I pulled out a d30 and rolled it, I think that even you would agree that the d30 throw is outside the expectations of the game--just as if rolling a d20 in MegaTraveller would be considered outside the custom of that game.
Therefore, CT does have its parameters. They're just wide and messy--not neat at all--written with a big, floppy paintbrush.
EDIT: Pgs. 38-42 of Book-0 presents a good example of how to use tasks in CT.
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
"Much has been made of the rolling of dice in role-playing games, much more than is necessary."
Book-0, pg. 18.
LOL!
Book-0, pg. 18.
LOL!
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I've long said that the best description of the task system in CT is presented on pages 28-29 of The Traveller Adventure.
There, MWM tells us that--
1. Procedures exist for the resolution of a situation (the resolution of tasks!), for example, combat, animal encounters, or patrons.
2. The referee must often rely on his own resources to handle a problem (come up with a task throw!).
3. Personal Characteristics can be used, throwing the attribute or less on 2D.
4. Situational Throws can be used in the absence of any other guidance. Throw 2D to determine the relative severity (random difficulty!). Then throw 2D for a result equal to or higher than the severity (difficulty) to achieve success.
5. DMs can be used (derrived from skills, attributes, or other situational factors) to skew throws.
6. Die rolls can be made in the open or in secret.
There, MWM tells us that--
1. Procedures exist for the resolution of a situation (the resolution of tasks!), for example, combat, animal encounters, or patrons.
2. The referee must often rely on his own resources to handle a problem (come up with a task throw!).
3. Personal Characteristics can be used, throwing the attribute or less on 2D.
4. Situational Throws can be used in the absence of any other guidance. Throw 2D to determine the relative severity (random difficulty!). Then throw 2D for a result equal to or higher than the severity (difficulty) to achieve success.
5. DMs can be used (derrived from skills, attributes, or other situational factors) to skew throws.
6. Die rolls can be made in the open or in secret.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Yes...CT rules are all over the place. There's even some "official" rules in the JTAS magazine (the computer rules are cited as being "official").
EDIT: And, there are contradictory or omitted rules. Starter Traveller has a rule for a ship's Pulse Lasers that is not in the LBBs or the Traveller Book. The Traveller Book has rules for cover and concealment that you won't find in Starter Traveller or the LBBs.
"Much has been made of the rolling of dice in role-playing games, much more than is necessary."
Book-0, pg. 18.
LOL!
Loren was wrong on that one...
The most prolific writing in the programming world isn't the underlying "how to write solid code" ... it's how to make a useful human interface. Dice are part of that human interface of RPG's. D&D was like CP/M - or early VMS - no HID guidelines other than "here's the code to get input and make output."
(Unified) "Task Systems" in general are like Win 1.0 - a rudimentary unified HI library, that made programming easier and using disparate programs easier - at the cost of interface flexibility.
D&D 3.X is like Win 7 - so many features added behind the forcibly unified interface that writing for it is a pain, and no one seems to do it by-the-book-correct.
D&D 4.X is like Win 8 - Pretty interface, and redone from the core up to support it, but people keep wanting to run Legacy Code on it.... and that's where it runs the most poorly.
CT is like Apple Prodos or MS-DOS3.3 - a good standard, and one that would last years. CT 2E is like MS-DOS 5.0 or Prodos version 2. Many improvements, but generally, no one notices unless they turn on debugging and know both.
DGP's Task system is like GEOS - a bolt on with a strict HI guideline, but one that's VERY flexible, and still supports Legacy Code. And, like GEOS, was so good, the next core engine (Prodos 16 for the GS; MegaTraveller) adopted it into the core.
68A is more like the old book, "Programming Your Own Adventure Games In Pascal" - a series of best practices presuming a particular interface modality in use, but the codebase allows for a bunch of other approaches, and the limited HI guidelines makes some of the other modes explicitly standard (skill list chunks of rules), despite being counter to the "best practices" in the HI Guide (the advice to Refs in the Rules).
