A new take on the venerable body pistol
- Thread starter Carlobrand
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CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Who said it couldn't be?
Someone could even just build their very own 3d printer from the ground up that does exactly what they want.
I was only pointing out that prior to the 3d printer frenzy, there existed other totally legal lower tech equipment that could be employed for making weapons if you are going the route of trying not to smuggle something illegal.
3d printers didn't suddenly make this concept possible.
The higher tech equipment will have higher tech measures for ensuring such equipment is not improperly used. So you'd be back to square one importing something illegal if it was hacked or modified.
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CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
I didn't miss the point. I just have no idea what it has to do with my point which it seams to me you obviously missed so I edited my above post.
Let me know if it is clearer.
Tee Hee, he said with his can of petrol.
Well, I think another point you are missing Cosmic is that technology outpaces laws. So yeah after a while there will legal databases that only let you do what the makers of the printer want, but that comes after wild and wooly days of people having the tech and no restrictions on its use.
Well, I think another point you are missing Cosmic is that technology outpaces laws. So yeah after a while there will legal databases that only let you do what the makers of the printer want, but that comes after wild and wooly days of people having the tech and no restrictions on its use.
Yes, much clearer. The limitations of typing/reading rapidly rather than speaking face to face.
Not in the Third Imperum where it takes hundreds of years to advance a TL.
(I am not weighing in on the merits, just pointing out a 'fact' of the OTU.)
IMTU and IYTU ... Our mileage may vary.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
If I'm missing these points, could you please indicate where they were previously brought up? I also don't believe I ever stated anything that contradicts these points, did I?
If so, I didn't mean to. My English is not the greatest and I often have trouble getting my point across to others.
I fully support that there will be numerous instances in an imaginary TU and in the future of our real world where 3d printers could be used both legally and illegally to produce legal, illegal, and even never before conceived of items.
My main point all along is that the concept to not risk smuggling weapons and use legally transported equipment to manufacture illegal weapons locally was already a possibility with the use of lower tech equipment and is not a new concept only made possible due to the 3d printer.
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Mags, if I may call you Mags, to further discuss the "point" you've brought up though, I think the pace of law is not much of a factor because 3d printers are already in development at our TL and in a far future TU that I play in, legal issues regarding them would already be addressed. I acknowledge that the time line of YTU and others may be different. EDIT: I see atpollard already commented similarly.
I'd also point out though that many activities are already illegal and don't need new laws.
VERY silly example: Pick up the 3d printer and slam it over someones head and you won't escape arrest just because there is no law specifically stating that assaulting someone with a 3d printer is illegal.
I'd think laws regarding manufacturing, owning, selling, EDIT: using, and transporting firearms, if they exist, will apply whether created with 3d printers, older tech or even more futuristic tech.
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Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
The only problem I see with your concept of the restricted 3D printer, CosmicGamer is the lack of FTL communications. This would severely hamper any sort of innovation* if you had to wait for your "registered widget" to propagate to the proper authorities, then back out to the sector. It would also make it much easier to "go offline" with it.
I'm not disagreeing that governments and corporations (and anyone else with power based on the status quo) would do their darnedest to restrict the technology or its uses. I'm merely saying that it would be hard (not impossible) to do given the single tech limitation of no-FTL-communications.
* Of course, this might be a feature, instead of a bug for the Vilani.
I'm not disagreeing that governments and corporations (and anyone else with power based on the status quo) would do their darnedest to restrict the technology or its uses. I'm merely saying that it would be hard (not impossible) to do given the single tech limitation of no-FTL-communications.
* Of course, this might be a feature, instead of a bug for the Vilani.
News says they just shot the thing:
http://www.upi.com/blog/2013/05/06/...-shot-lawmakers-fire-back/1361367840112/#!/1/
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/t...n-fired-its-digital-blueprints-make-6C9790795
Managed 6 rounds before it gave out. Not sure how it gave out. Still, interesting.
Lest the point be lost in the debate: I'm wanting to explore where the tech is GOING, not where it is now. I can't help thinking a TL15 version might be a bit more accomplished than a laser cutter. At some point, the tech level could allow for mixed-material applications, perhaps even - at a high enough tech level - for laying down circuitry and wiring. I don't see any such future potential there in laser cutters.
So, given what we can accomplish now, the challenges we face, and the limits imposed by physics, what do we think can be accomplished at TL10? At TL12? At TL15? Could you go to your TL15 device and order up some rope and a grapnel gun for your upcoming adventure? Could you order up a watch, or a TL7 calculator? I can't think of anything comparable in the game, and my science background is average at best, so figuring out the possibilities and limitations is a bit beyond me.
A very effective analysis, if you're living on Jewell. Now tell my why a manufacturer on ante-bellum Efate, or Trexalon, or Collace should bother incorporating programming to support all that legal rigamarole.
I have every confidence that high-law worlds will do whatever is within their means to ensure that the products of their industry - and imports legally shipped in from offworld sources - conform to law. I have just as much confidence that the businessmen of Efate don't give two whits for what the government of Jewell thinks. If some ethically impaired free trader wants to buy a perfectly legal machine on Collace and then use it to manufacture and sell plastic snub pistols to heretics on Pavabid, there is nothing except the government of Pavabid itself to try and stop him.
http://www.upi.com/blog/2013/05/06/...-shot-lawmakers-fire-back/1361367840112/#!/1/
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/t...n-fired-its-digital-blueprints-make-6C9790795
Managed 6 rounds before it gave out. Not sure how it gave out. Still, interesting.
Lest the point be lost in the debate: I'm wanting to explore where the tech is GOING, not where it is now. I can't help thinking a TL15 version might be a bit more accomplished than a laser cutter. At some point, the tech level could allow for mixed-material applications, perhaps even - at a high enough tech level - for laying down circuitry and wiring. I don't see any such future potential there in laser cutters.
So, given what we can accomplish now, the challenges we face, and the limits imposed by physics, what do we think can be accomplished at TL10? At TL12? At TL15? Could you go to your TL15 device and order up some rope and a grapnel gun for your upcoming adventure? Could you order up a watch, or a TL7 calculator? I can't think of anything comparable in the game, and my science background is average at best, so figuring out the possibilities and limitations is a bit beyond me.
A very effective analysis, if you're living on Jewell. Now tell my why a manufacturer on ante-bellum Efate, or Trexalon, or Collace should bother incorporating programming to support all that legal rigamarole.
I have every confidence that high-law worlds will do whatever is within their means to ensure that the products of their industry - and imports legally shipped in from offworld sources - conform to law. I have just as much confidence that the businessmen of Efate don't give two whits for what the government of Jewell thinks. If some ethically impaired free trader wants to buy a perfectly legal machine on Collace and then use it to manufacture and sell plastic snub pistols to heretics on Pavabid, there is nothing except the government of Pavabid itself to try and stop him.
Ouch.
Yeah, my ATU has a lot more milage on that wild and wooly side. :devil:
Touché.Not in the Third Imperum where it takes hundreds of years to advance a TL.
(I am not weighing in on the merits, just pointing out a 'fact' of the OTU.)
IMTU and IYTU ... Our mileage may vary.
Yeah, my ATU has a lot more milage on that wild and wooly side. :devil:
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
FYI, I never said my analysis was of the way things were in all systems throughout all TUs.
For a MTU or YTU the whys can be as varied as the TU's. For the OTU, sorry, I don't own all the materials for all the different time periods the OTU covers so I don't know all the possible economical, political, technological, and other factors that might contribute to this. Off the top of my head though, one general reason could be that some of the Effates or Trexalons, or Collaces or other systems in some TUs have a manufacturer who wants to sell to as many people as possible and might want to comply with whatever local, regional, and system laws and regulations there are for all the locations they wish to sell their products. This may be done with one all inclusive model or with multiple versions for multiple markets.
My comments were not intended to have any point regarding the legality or illegality of 3d printers in any specific system of the OTU or any other TU let alone YTU.
My discussion of possible 3d printer legalities was probably a pretty poor example of one possible occurrence that would support my overall premise that the 3d tech does not suddenly break many TU assumptions - one being that smuggling might be outdated because all you need is to import a 3d printer.
For clarity, how about this:
In some systems in some TUs the 3d printer itself could be illegal and would need to be smuggled.
In some systems in some TUs 3d printers can be made locally under local regulations and laws but importing 3d printers with unknown specifications is illegal and would need to be smuggled.
In some systems in some TUs some modifications to a 3d printer would be illegal and 3d printers with these modifications would need to be smuggled.
None of this implies that in some systems in some TUs it is not illegal to import 3d printers of any design and capability so there would be no need to smuggle them.
Sorry, but I thought discussing where it is not GOING would be useful too.
In my opinion, 3d printing is not GOING to radically change smuggling in all systems in all TUs.
In my opinion, there is GOING to be an attempt to curtailed certain abilities of a 3d printer in some systems in some TUs for a wide range of reasons among the possibilities being laws, regulations, patents, and so on.
In my opinion, in some systems in some TUs the 3d printer is GOING to be just an everyday machine and the everyday Traveller pays it no more attention than they would a vending machine.
I have more to say but it will have to wait. In some system in some TU I need to take my wife to a doctors appointment
I don't think Brits being into 3D printing has anything to do with firearms politics, it's just that the UK has a strong DIY engineering culture. Guns=Freedom is a pretty firmly American meme. Over here it's just not an issue. Pretty much the only people grumbling about the gun laws here are a few country gents that like to bag a grouse or two at the weekend, which by and large they still can anyway. In fact, there's a gun shop opposite my house.
As to this being political, clearly it's a politically emotive issue. I still think it should be possible to discuss in a neutral, factual way without espousing any particular personal view.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Possibilities: On the negative side. Very little. A 3d printer in itself is no miracle machine. All it does is apply materials in layers. An additive process instead of molding or subtractive manufacturing. See limitations.
On the more positive side, the possibilities are as endless as the imagination. At high TL in some TUs there could be the manipulation of atoms to convert elements so that only a few resources are needed and the 3d printer is complex enough that it can manipulate power, pressure, gravity, temperature and whatever else such that it can build anything that any other machine could.
Limitations: Again, I'm not scientific enough or knowledgeable about manufacturing but I know some things are done in specific environments, like pressure, vacuum, atmospheres with different gas mixtures, various temperatures, the absence or presence of light or radiation, and so on. So I could be wrong, but a futuristic 3d printer where you just press a button and layer by layer an entire portable computer is produced would probably require a lot of other advanced technology. Advanced items for curing materials faster. Advanced items to assist in bonding materials. Advanced items for insulating materials. And so on.
Cost and Variety. A 3d printer that can process any type of element in various pressures, gravities, temperatures, atmospheres and so on would probably be quite costly. So an additional limitation in some systems of some TUs would be that some devices, to be practical, will be a limited version such as one that just makes things in super small layers, like computer chips vs one that makes tooth brushes, plastic gears and a very huge number of other plastic items.
Game limitation: Creating an accurate database of every possible material and which ones and how much is needed for every conceivable thing the players might make. Also determining how long the process takes for each different item based on size, complexity, amount of materials that need pre processing before application and so on. Is a play group going to keep track of the ships inventory of elements and how much is used every time something is made?
Suggestion based on one of the games I play in: The ships computer is used to track what supplies were used. Food, medicine, replacing items broken, things used for repairs and maintenance, the 3d printer supplies (we don't call it that), and so on. We just tell the GM we are refueling and restocking and don't worry about an itemized list. The GM makes a rough estimate of how many credits need to be spent. These steps are often ignored and deemed automatic if we are not limited for funds because we aren't playing accountants in space. Might not work for many people but we are the type that already doesn't keep track of minor details like if the auto chef needs more salt, protein or vitamin supplement.
The GM will point out if something is hard to get or even impossible to get in the current system. At times there is a side adventure centered around needing to find a resource.
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My comments were not intended to have any point regarding the legality or illegality of 3d printers in any specific system of the OTU or any other TU let alone YTU. [/QUOTE]
Noted. I'm trying to work out how this might work in the OTU, where we're faced with a wide variety of worlds with a wide range of law levels and tech levels, and where the Imperial government doesn't tend to get involved in planetside politics or legalities.
Pretty much the diversity the OTU shows us.
Agreed, at the current tech level. However, the average person doesn't have the skills to make use of other manufacturing devices. What seems different about this is, while they are pricey, there is potential for a different sort of person to make use of them. Folk could manufacture guns in their basement before. Well, there are laws involved, but speaking purely to the technology, it was a matter of the right tools and the right skills with machining and such. This technology doesn't introduce anything new on that front - it simply opens up possibilities to people who didn't have those possibilities before. Mostly geeks and hobbyists for the moment, but that could change if the technology opens up other possibilities.
Another thought is the equipment becomes more capable, and equally more expensive. Maybe your TL15 machine is capable of almost anything - and costs millions. Useful for the Imperial Navy or a corporation wanting a versatile manufacuring device for some reason, but a bit beyond the budgets of the rest of us. You could buy one and settle in someplace to build and sell something illegal, but you'd be at it for a couple or three years before the product made up the price of the machine. Not exactly the get-rich-quick scheme the typical rule-bender is looking for. We'd just have to figure out what can do what, and what's a good price that makes it self-balancing.
One other interesting observation comes from the Star Trek Technical Reference Manual. As you can imagine, "replication" is a topic that comes up when discussing that universe.
The tech designers for the show decided that starships would be fabricated, not just replicated by mucking about in a fancy way with a transporter.
Okuda's take on it was simple: "if you got to a stage where you could replicate an entire starship at the push of a button, you wouldn't need to."
(Quite apart from their desire to film all those "beauty shots" of the Big E in spacedock... )
The tech designers for the show decided that starships would be fabricated, not just replicated by mucking about in a fancy way with a transporter.
Okuda's take on it was simple: "if you got to a stage where you could replicate an entire starship at the push of a button, you wouldn't need to."
(Quite apart from their desire to film all those "beauty shots" of the Big E in spacedock... )
Another limitation would be the power and volumen needed for such 3d printer if it has capability to alter gravity, etc in order to make different environments to make the pieces.
In an ycase, it could be a useful tool for starships' repair shops, if it has the capability to duplicate a piece you might not have when your starship, vehicle or sibcraft boreaks down. Even in the piece is not the same quality as an original (or just one made with better tolos and capability) it might well solve the immediate problema until you reach a place where more permanent repairs could be done.
This wil lbe specially true on exploring ships, that may stay for long time out of their bases and support or for environements as Hard Times, where obtaining spare pieces is one of the major concerns for starship maintenance.
[m;]Simon, go reread the board rules (COTI Features – Frequently Asked Questions).[/m;]
Political discussion is not allowed outside one particular area of the board, the Pit. Period. And, since you aren't a moot member, you cannot even see the pit.
