A jump drive replacement for T5

[rancke]

Poor choice of words then Hans, BUT, IF physics works in the OTU, 3I or not, shouldn't it remain constant?

Indeed it should. Or at least all changes should apply retroactively.

OK I was under the impression that what was canon in CT was altered by MT canon, then altered by every other game version, every time.

Some of it was. Subsector navies were changed ro reserve fleets, for example. J2 ships were changed from having 20% jump fuel to having 15% jump fuel.

Take FTL Drives as an example. Jump Drive is the only drive. Then there are Stutterwarp, Warp, Teleport, JumpGate, etc. The Last (T5) incarnation is Hop, Skip and Jump...

You're conflating rules for alternate drives with setting information. Up until T5, the Third Imperium setting has never had anything other than jump drive, no matter what FF&S had to offer. I can only hope that Marc will keep that up for T5, but if he does introduce hop and skip drives to the OTU, it will become the new canon (which, incidentally, I will personally proceed to ignore for my TU).

Oh, and let's not forget that "magic pixie dust" is now readily available since the Annic Nova gave up her secrets...

Nothing but vast, quick consumption of LHyd can power Jump capacitors...except for "magic pixie dust" of course.

No one guarantees that canon makes sense, unfortunately.

I certainly do NOT object to all the changes, BUT, can we stabilize the Universe?

That would be nice. Let's hope that happens.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Poor choice of words then Hans, BUT, IF physics works in the OTU, 3I or not, shouldn't it remain constant?



OK I was under the impression that what was canon in CT was altered by MT canon, then altered by every other game version, every time.

Take FTL Drives as an example. Jump Drive is the only drive. Then there are Stutterwarp, Warp, Teleport, JumpGate, etc. The Last (T5) incarnation is Hop, Skip and Jump...

Oh, and let's not forget that "magic pixie dust" is now readily available since the Annic Nova gave up her secrets...

Nothing but vast, quick consumption of LHyd can power Jump capacitors...except for "magic pixie dust" of course.

So...I have a canon Warp Drive with a fission power plant, then I don't...

I have a 1dton maneuver drive...then it's 2dt

Jump takes 10% of hull volume per jump number, until...MT jump drives are twice as efficient (5%). Then, somehow, the plans and specs were lost and we are back to 10%...

Jump Drive doesn't need a separate power plant, then it does...

I can't jump, or hop, a ship using fission power, but, I can sure skip it...

Maneuver Drive now don't work past 1000 diameters... (Relatively ineffective beyond 100) So, deep space maneuver is now impossible, as is outer system (as well as in-system asteroid), Oort Cloud and Comet refueling...

I have .5dton low berths, then 1dt, now .5dton...again...

Double use of Staterooms will tax the life support system, but then...spacer niches and bunks...

Ship systems don't require (extra) power, then they do, and then they don't and now they? God Knows.

Weapons work, then they don't...

Computers are huge...Then they need extra power...then they don't...then they are smaller.

I certainly do NOT object to all the changes, BUT, can we stabilize the Universe? Or have we all miss-jumped and stared into J space to long?

I've said often - the various editions appear to be separate canons. DonM and Robject disagree, as does Hans, but since I'm a rules-prescriptivist type person... Each edition looks to me to be a separate parallel, since each has things that don't match the others. T5 doesn't alter my MT MTU much, and doesn't affect my MGT ATU at all. I'll happily use CT materials ported into MT, but I do see it as a different universe from CT proper, because things work differently.

 

[rancke]

I've said often - the various editions appear to be separate canons. DonM and Robject disagree, as does Hans, but since I'm a rules-prescriptivist type person... Each edition looks to me to be a separate parallel, since each has things that don't match the others. T5 doesn't alter my MT MTU much, and doesn't affect my MGT ATU at all. I'll happily use CT materials ported into MT, but I do see it as a different universe from CT proper, because things work differently.

The problem I have with that view is that while things are SAID to work differently, they haven't worked differently during the history of the universe, which is the same regardless of the rules that allegedly differ.

But that really doesn't matter. Canon is about the most recent version. It's about what the rules and setting says NOW. If the CT and MT and TNE and T4 and T20 universes are separate and distinct universes, then they are irrelevant separate and distinct universes, except when it comes to details that are identical to the current OTU. Which means that it's irrelevant that J2 ships use 15% jump fuel in the MT universe, irtrelevant that the standard maneuver drive is HePLaR in the TNE universe, etc., etc..


Hans

 

[robject]

I've said often - the various editions appear to be separate canons. [...] Each edition looks to me to be a separate parallel, since each has things that don't match the others.

Even if I disagree in theory, in practice that's the way it has to be: if you're going to run TNE, you don't run it with G:T rules. And that includes background to a certain degree. Even though there is lots of overlap, occasional inheritence, and some verbatim copy, it is a mistake to assume that one equals the other.

 

[mike wightman]

I have to disagree with your disagreement

I have never run TNE using the TNE rules, I've used CT+ etc, it was still TNE.

Hans does not use Traveller rules to run the OTU, is he even playing Traveller or is he just using his version of the setting?

The OTU has always been, and will remain, a sandbox for new rules. Every time GDW released a new rule book the setting changed in some way to accommodate it.

If you want a coherent setting then produce a setting book for T5 that describes the OTU and state once and for all this is how it is.

Alternatively flatten it, reboot and start again and this time make it consistent, no more waking up in the shower with a brand new jump drive paradigm, jump fuel paradigm, manoeuvre drive paradigm etc.

 

[rancke]

Hans does not use Traveller rules to run the OTU, is he even playing Traveller or is he just using his version of the setting?

Arguably I am, arguably I'm not. I think of Traveller as a set of tropes that defines a certain style of adventure. If I run a game with the Traveller tropes, I think that I'm justified in calling it a Traveller game even if I use my own rules. Or Savage World. Or various other rules although there are also rules that don't support the Traveller tropes and I wouldn't be able to run a Traveller game with those. On the other hand, I also think that I could run a non-Traveller game in the Third Imperium setting. Say a superhero game or a Science fantasy game.

But if you want to say that I'm not playing Traveller, that's fine by me too. I do insist that I'm playing in a Third Imperium setting, though.


Hans

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Fascinating reading about other Travellers definitions of canon. Amazingly canon seems to be different to all Travellers I've gamed with so far, here on the board it's no different. Fascinating.

 

[Macus74Bishop]

I found a good alternative to the standard jump drive with the fuel consumption formula tweeked. I cannot recall the fanzine's name or issue, but it was called the Lyman drive. This made a better alternative IMTU.

 

[Vladika]

I found a good alternative to the standard jump drive with the fuel consumption formula tweeked. I cannot recall the fanzine's name or issue, but it was called the Lyman drive. This made a better alternative IMTU.

Lyman Drive - Freelance Traveller
www.freelancetraveller.com › Doing It My Way › Technology Rules

 

[whulorigan]

I found a good alternative to the standard jump drive with the fuel consumption formula tweeked. I cannot recall the fanzine's name or issue, but it was called the Lyman drive. This made a better alternative IMTU.

Freelance Traveller: Issue #040 (April 2013).
Doing it My Way: "Technology Rules: The Lyman Drive: An Alternative Jump Drive" by Jeff Zeitlin, p.23

 

[pendragonman]

I've said often - the various editions appear to be separate canons. DonM and Robject disagree, as does Hans, but since I'm a rules-prescriptivist type person... Each edition looks to me to be a separate parallel, since each has things that don't match the others. T5 doesn't alter my MT MTU much, and doesn't affect my MGT ATU at all. I'll happily use CT materials ported into MT, but I do see it as a different universe from CT proper, because things work differently.

Agreed. I definitely consider the various versions to be part of a multiverse. Part of the quantum foam, as it were.

 

[ThornPlutonius]

Universe style jump ships in Traveller

I think it would be fun to introduce the style of jump ships used in the old SPI Universe game. Not as the official standard imperial craft, but as something that shows up out on the fringes of the Empire as a hither to unknown civilization makes its presence known.

Perhaps even as a super-secret development project done by some rogue element in the Empire.

For those who don't recall the game, interstellar travel was done in ships piloted by folks with psy powers. The craft need to use some "conventional" drive mechanism to move towards the edge of a planet's gravity well. Once safe distance was achieved, the ship would then make an instantaneous jump to a point outside its destination system's gravity well. "Conventional" engines would then move the ship to the planet's environs.

 

[robject]

I think it would be fun to introduce the style of jump ships used in the old SPI Universe game. [...]

For those who don't recall the game, interstellar travel was done in ships piloted by folks with psy powers. The craft need to use some "conventional" drive mechanism to move towards the edge of a planet's gravity well. Once safe distance was achieved, the ship would then make an instantaneous jump to a point outside its destination system's gravity well. "Conventional" engines would then move the ship to the planet's environs.

Sounds like a combination of Niven's Alderson Drive (instantaneous jump at some particular point relative to a gravity well) with Niven's FTL drive from Known Space (psionically controlled).

Just for the moment, I'll add "N" for Niven to the end of "SPI" and get "SPIN" drive for its name. For now.

So are there any volume, price, and fuel requirements you'd want for this SPIN drive? Is there anything critically important about its volume, cost, and fuel use, that requires it to differ from the jump drive?

If not, then you can use the Jump drive numbers, and just substitute the SPIN description.

 

[ThornPlutonius]

Sounds like a combination of Niven's Alderson Drive (instantaneous jump at some particular point relative to a gravity well) with Niven's FTL drive from Known Space (psionically controlled).

Just for the moment, I'll add "N" for Niven to the end of "SPI" and get "SPIN" drive for its name. For now.

So are there any volume, price, and fuel requirements you'd want for this SPIN drive? Is there anything critically important about its volume, cost, and fuel use, that requires it to differ from the jump drive?

If not, then you can use the Jump drive numbers, and just substitute the SPIN description.

I've not thought it through enough to comment on numbers...yet. I just stumbled across this thread and the idea occurred to me while reading.

I would not be surprised if the Universe drives were inspired by Niven's work. I like the name 'SPIN'. Clever you!

And, now that you say "SPIN", I think of Blish's Spindizzy drives. That's another universe that I'd like to play in.

 

[robject]

I've not thought it through enough to comment on numbers...yet. I just stumbled across this thread and the idea occurred to me while reading.

I would not be surprised if the Universe drives were inspired by Niven's work. I like the name 'SPIN'. Clever you!

SPIN

I don't ever recall small starships being in Niven's Known Space. They all tended to be Big. If I had to put that in Traveller terms, I'd think 10,000 tons and up. Were there small interstellar ships in the SPI universe?

If not, then there's a data point to start with, even if we end up making them smaller.

And, now that you say "SPIN", I think of Blish's Spindizzy drives. That's another universe that I'd like to play in.

Spindizzy

Yep, that had occurred to me, too.

Spindizzies would be huge affairs -- perhaps half fusion drive, half FTL drive, uh, and half gravitic too . They'd be huge because these ships were city-sized... millions of tons to billions of tons... but I can't remember if there were smaller interstellar ships in the "Cities In Flight" series.

 

[robject]

SPIN Drive (first attempt)

Description. The SPIN drive is an FTL drive which is controlled psionically. Any trained psion can attempt to operate this drive, with a task asset equal to his "contact" rating, and a difficulty equal to the drive performance (which ranges from 1 up to the drive's rating). Therefore, a psion with contact-20 attempting a SPIN-4 must roll 4D < 20 to succeed. The attempt to operate the drive may be made once per day. On success, the ship will travel the given distance instantaneously, ending up right outside the gravity well of the destination system. The drive only works when the ship is 100 diameters from every gravity well; earlier models (TL-3) require a distance of 1,000 diameters from every gravity well.

Rating: FTL: 1-9, in light-years (later versions (TL+3) are faster, rated at 1-9 parsecs).
Volume: 1000t + 5% hull volume
Power: The drive is fully powered by a power plant of the same rating. For example, a Power Plant-1 will power a SPIN-1.
Cost: MCr1 per ton.



Spindizzy Drive (first attempt)

Description. A gravitic and FTL device which grows more efficient with the volume (mass) being lifted. It is useful for in-system maneuver and landings, as well as FTL travel. The smallest vessels for which this drive works displace 15 million tons, while the best rating starts with ships displacing 50 billion tons.

Rating: Maneuver: 1-9 G's. FTL: 1-9, in light years per month, and is equal to [log(ship volume) - 16], round up.
Volume: 12% hull volume: 6 "cylinders" displacing 2% hull volume each.
Power: The drive is fully powered by a power plant of the same rating.
Cost: MCr1 per ton.

 

[aramis]

SPIN

I don't ever recall small starships being in Niven's Known Space. They all tended to be Big. If I had to put that in Traveller terms, I'd think 10,000 tons and up. Were there small interstellar ships in the SPI universe?

If not, then there's a data point to start with, even if we end up making them smaller.

you've not read Ringworld, then?

http://news.larryniven.net/concordance/main.asp?alpha=G

No. 1 GP hull: A sphere the size of a basketball [4].

No. 2 GP hull: A cylinder 300 feet long and 20 feet in diameter, pointed at both ends and with a slight wasp-waist constriction near the tail [5]. Ordinarily, a No. 2 hull is just roomy enough for one pilot. Spaceships using this hull included the Lying Bastard, Skydiver, and Slower Than Infinity.

No. 3 GP hull: A cylinder 110 feet in diameter, with a flattened belly and rounded ends. [6]. An unofficial source puts the length at "nearly 150 meters" (about 480-490 feet) [7]. The No. 3 hull makes a good multicrewed passenger ship. Spaceships using this hull include the Hot Needle of Inquiry, and the rendezvous ship.

No. 4 GP hull: Said to be the largest hull manufactured in Known Space, a globe more than a thousand feet in diameter [8]. Generally, No. 4 hulls sold to customers are only used for colony projects. The Long Shot used a No. 4 hull. [Spoiler alert: Fleet of Worlds] Puppeteers use them to ferry grain from their farming worlds to Hearth.
​

GP #2 Hull is roughly 91.7m x 6.1m; It's around 2,700. cubic meters, or 200Td.
GP #3 hull is roughly 150x34m; 136,188 cubic meters or 9,728. Td, before reducing for the rounded ends and flat-belly.

GP#4 - Using 306m (the lower bound as described) diameter, 15002475. cubic meters, 1,071,606 Td; using the 1600m upper bound (a mile diameter), 21,44,660,585. cubic meters or 153,190,042. Td. Given Niven's own use of "-odd" in other contexts, it's always 3rd significant digit, so 1100 feet peak, or 336.6m,rounding up to 19,968,294. cubic meters or
1,426,307. Td.

Runs the whole gamut of HG and a bit more, but only by 50%.

 

[ThornPlutonius]

SPI's idea was to have a large ship that was really a drive with crew quarters and a long framework onto which pods were attached. The pods could be pretty much anything (passenger quarters, cargo, weapons, etc.). The ship had a ring around it, which I suppose (need to look at the rules again) created the field/portal though which the ship shifted.

In Blish's Cities in Flight 'verse multiple spindizzies were mounted to the mass that was to be moved. So, while large, many could be used to move pretty much any mass (including planets, e.g., He). The greater the mass to which they were mounted, the greater the power/speed/etc that the drive could generate. I don't recall if he ever went into much detail about their physical size. I do recall his writing that it took several mounted across a city to provide even "lift" and shielding. I think they were impractical for small vessels given the way mass influenced power, etc.

 

[ThornPlutonius]

I expect the SPIN drive would also invoke a rather steep increase in difficulty if it was too far into the gravity well at the beginning or end of the jump/shift.

 

[robject]

you've not read Ringworld, then?

Oh yeah, Known Space, Puppeteers, and all that. Neutron Star. At The core.

Funny, I was stuck in Pournelle's CoDominium universe, and forgot all about Known Space, and in fact confused my terms.

Different FTL mechanics completely.