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3D "Printed" clothes

Aboard spaceships, clothing, food, and dishes are all fabricated on demand and recycled in my TU since my very first game in the early 80's.

Aside from dishes, I'm sure this came from watching Star Trek. (Dishes is from having chores! ;) )

Starships are a closed system with a presumption of excess energy - so instead of time, energy and water wasteful cleaning, and disposal, recycling is likely to prevail. RW 'recycling' generally involves generating more pollution in terms of concentration of bio-hazards and water contamination than source production - but the economy of a human scale closed environment will likely necessitate more intelligent use of materials well suited to re-use and recycling.
 
Hi,

I guess that maybe I tend to be a bit conservative in my approach, but I tend to shy away from making stuff too high tech in my gaming probably maybe a bit because of concerns with what might happen if things go wrong.

Specifically, I'm thinking that I wouldn't be real big on a stranded crew having to decide that some emergency power has to be diverted to new clothing each day or something along those lines.
 
I would honestly think the biggest problem would be (using current tech) that clothes aren't usually blocks of simple molecules. They are long chains, those long chains woven together to make the surface. The tech would have to advance to the point where it could actually build molecules as it went, attaching more to the end of each thread, doing the weaving as it went. And, remember, it has to do this in two dimensions, simultaneously. Doable, but not there yet, I think.

As far as fabricating new clothes each day - if energy is the only requirement for that, then it becomes prevalent in a Traveller TL15 paradigm. Energy is, for all intents and purposes, free and almost limitless. (It's not quite as far as Star Trek, but hydrogen is a cheap and easy fuel.) If you assume material loss in the system, though, it becomes a little less likely to be a "make me a throw-away suit to wear every day" and more like a method to make clothing that is treated the same way we treat clothing now - wash, wear, repeat.
 
I take a middle approach to this. I don't see the Traveller universe being one where energy and matter are freely exchangable. That requires something like matter transporters ala Star Trek. Those in Traveller are generally, if not always, above the tech levels of the worlds in play.

On the other hand, I can see a 3D machine specifically designed and loaded with the proper material making seamless 'to fit' clothing at a store or other venue where the equipment is used all day to this purpose sort of a high tech tailor shop.

The cost of such clothing will vary with tech level and the features included. I allow "smart" clothing that has embedded electronics and such too. With such technology a made to fit piece of clothing has such stuff woven right in. So, you might have a suit made that included a personal computer system, comm system, adjustable fit, enviromental controls (to a degree keeping you warm or cool in normal atmospheric conditions), and such all at a price of course...

I take the same tack on food, and other tangible items. There is no complete recycling of materials and no making of things out of thin air using energy conversion to matter or vice versa. That is TL 16-17+ and beyond the technology you would find almost anywhere in the Traveller universe.

It also makes it more personable. Small stores with shopkeepers and personal help make for more NPC encounters that are useful rather than a trip to "Walmart" with bored and incompetent worker bees who add nothing to the game.
 
I guess that I view this as one of those, "yes, we can do it but why bother", ideas. Your average ship is not a closed system by any means, as it is in port every week or so. You may have "working passage" crew members who are going to depart at the next stop, taking their clothing and gear with them. All those clothes that they printed leave with them, meaning you have to replace the raw materials, and gain no recycling. You may have crew that like to do a little business on the side on lower Tech worlds by printing clothes and then selling them on the local market to specialty shops. Yes, you might be able to recover the raw material cost and printer time from their pay, but it is another thing to deal with and supply while on a planet. It is also another thing that can have problems and either go out of service, do some very odd things to the clothes printed (Child size 0 instead of Adult size 14), or require regular maintenance.

I prefer the KISS, "Keep It Simple, Stupid" approach myself. Have extended wear clothes, and a washer/dryer.
 
A closed system does not have to always be such, so have to disagree with the absolute 'Your average ship is not a closed system by any means' - as it most definitely is a closed system during jump. ;)

Sure, its more things to go wrong! ('Joey, forgot to tell ya the Outfitter is on the blink again - ah, uhm, nice tan... you want a blanket or something?')

Practically, clothing recyclers would eliminate the need to stock much clothing (in a space premium environment), provide for various weather/lighting (different atmos) outfitting, provide for cultural specific outfitting, provide for much more extensive sterilization, not to mention just allow for more creative freedom.

The problems you mentioned are very easy to address
- hire-ons would store and leave with their own clothes
- everyone would have at least one more extra set of clothes
- use of the 'outfitter' would identify the user
- shipboard clothing could easily be tagged

Most importantly this is a Sci-Fi game!
 
BytePro said:
A closed system does not have to always be such, so have to disagree with the absolute 'Your average ship is not a closed system by any means' - as it most definitely is a closed system during jump. ;)

Sure, its more things to go wrong! ('Joey, forgot to tell ya the Outfitter is on the blink again - ah, uhm, nice tan... you want a blanket or something?')

Practically, clothing recyclers would eliminate the need to stock much clothing (in a space premium environment), provide for various weather/lighting (different atmos) outfitting, provide for cultural specific outfitting, provide for much more extensive sterilization, not to mention just allow for more creative freedom.

The problems you mentioned are very easy to address
- hire-ons would store and leave with their own clothes
- everyone would have at least one more extra set of clothes
- use of the 'outfitter' would identify the user
- shipboard clothing could easily be tagged

Most importantly this is a Sci-Fi game!
Click to expand...
That's the kind of nonsense that really doesn't wash with many people.

Clothes washing uses a compound extremely easily recycled, and, more importantly, easily made by skimming - Water. Water is such a prevalent factor of biology that the space station and all prior spacecraft have to REMOVE it from the air - you lose water by breathing, perspiring and by both urine and feces... And you need little else than water; surfactants are nice but not essential.

Water is needed in small enough quantities that, for a ship in normal operation, recycling it isn't essential.

Fabrics, likewise, are complex molecules. It's not like aluminum, which can be recycled with 99.9% efficiency... oxidization and contamination will have long term effects that require significant reprocessing.

Further, there's the comfort and break-in of new garments... Ever gone a week in nothing but new clothes? I have. It sucked. Nothing had stretched where it needed to. Nothing slid where it needed to. Only one thing I would wear new daily - socks.

Plus, most people find natural fiber more comfortable, despite higher care requirements.

And, people generally wear clothing as part of their self-identity. I have a lot of clothes - but generally, many look much the same. (The rest were gifts.)
 
aramis said:
That's the kind of nonsense that really doesn't wash with many people.

Clothes washing uses a compound extremely easily recycled, and, more importantly, easily made by skimming - Water. Water is such a prevalent factor of biology that the space station and all prior spacecraft have to REMOVE it from the air - you lose water by breathing, perspiring and by both urine and feces... And you need little else than water; surfactants are nice but not essential.

Water is needed in small enough quantities that, for a ship in normal operation, recycling it isn't essential.

Fabrics, likewise, are complex molecules. It's not like aluminum, which can be recycled with 99.9% efficiency... oxidization and contamination will have long term effects that require significant reprocessing.

Further, there's the comfort and break-in of new garments... Ever gone a week in nothing but new clothes? I have. It sucked. Nothing had stretched where it needed to. Nothing slid where it needed to. Only one thing I would wear new daily - socks.

Plus, most people find natural fiber more comfortable, despite higher care requirements.

And, people generally wear clothing as part of their self-identity. I have a lot of clothes - but generally, many look much the same. (The rest were gifts.)
Click to expand...

Interesting, we agree for once. Also, I know several people who are allergic to synthetic fibers, and need to wear 100% cotton or woolen clothes, and those are not easy to find.
 
I think that, given a sufficient technology, you could produce "natural" fibers. But it would require actual nanoproduction of the fibers and weaving them together as you "printed" them. I think there is a huge difference between a piece of flexible rubber or plastic laid on in simple layers with a printer and a woven bit of fabric (even if the fabric is synthetic) - in how it breathes, how it moves, how it reacts in contact with the skin. Silk might be a good natural fiber to try and emulate in this fashion.

I'm going to disagree with Aramis about the need for surfactants, though. We're talking living on a starship. I've lived on a ship, and it's like being in a factory, 24/7. You take your clothes off at the end of the day and wonder "Where in the heck did I get that stain from?" The real problem with needing actual soap, though, is for body oils and fluids - which carry body odor. Though that might explain why the Type-S has such trouble with it's air recycling filters.........
 
I would add that clothing could (and probably) would have treatments that resist dirt and such making cleaning less necessary too. They likely would also be very tear resistant and possibly self-repairing to some degree.

As for making them, you might have a machine that simply weaves the whole piece from a number of bobbins of thread much like a very high tech 3D loom. But, that would be a bulky piece of equipment having to be large enough to cover the area that the piece of clothing covered, at least in large part.

I agree however that reusable, durable clothing would be a better option even on ship where you also have linens for bedding, other items of clothing, and personal use stuff that will need cleaning periodically. A washer / dryer combination would be more practical.... unless you were near the sun then you might string a clothes line and EVA to hang out the laundry... :p
 
Enoki said:
unless you were near the sun then you might string a clothes line and EVA to hang out the laundry... :p
Click to expand...

"Why are all my shirts stiff? Did you put starch in the laundry soap bin, again?"
"Ummmm.... no."
*giving him "the look"*
"Well, we hung them out to dry."
"You hung them... I don't recall seeing any lines up in the common area....."
"Errrr, well... umm.... we hung them *out* to dry."
*angrily* "What are you talking about?! If you don't tell me what you did, I'm gonna..."
*quickly explaining* "We put a line up on the hull - between the aft turret and the HF array - and hung them out to dry."
*with a stunned expression* "You flash. froze. my good. silk. shirts?"
"Well, we didn't think of that part before we snapped them out and clipped them up. We did notice they seemed to dry really quickly...... On the bright side, they should be sterile now....."
*camera cuts away, sounds of blaster fire are heard, followed by screaming*
 
aramis said:
That's the kind of nonsense that really doesn't wash with many people.

Clothes washing uses a compound extremely easily recycled, and, more importantly, easily made by skimming - Water. Water is such a prevalent factor of biology that the space station and all prior spacecraft have to REMOVE it from the air - you lose water by breathing, perspiring and by both urine and feces... And you need little else than water; surfactants are nice but not essential.

Water is needed in small enough quantities that, for a ship in normal operation, recycling it isn't essential.

Fabrics, likewise, are complex molecules. It's not like aluminum, which can be recycled with 99.9% efficiency... oxidization and contamination will have long term effects that require significant reprocessing.

Further, there's the comfort and break-in of new garments... Ever gone a week in nothing but new clothes? I have. It sucked. Nothing had stretched where it needed to. Nothing slid where it needed to. Only one thing I would wear new daily - socks.

Plus, most people find natural fiber more comfortable, despite higher care requirements.

And, people generally wear clothing as part of their self-identity. I have a lot of clothes - but generally, many look much the same. (The rest were gifts.)
Click to expand...
What a load of crap! :rofl:

No, seriously, wash loads will contain fecal material - i.e. crap. Most of your arguments are specious at best.

Ever actually see the water that comes out of a washing machine? Its called greywater for a reason. Laundry for a ship full of working crew for several weeks is going to make a lot of greywater.

Sure, one can make water by burning hydrogen assuming you have the pure O2 to spare, but that doesn't address the issue of sanitation for crew health (nor dealing with the substantial greywater, especially while in jump). With starships dependent on crew for survival, dealing with pathogens will be critical path - especially considering starship are visiting bio-diverse systems. Washing alone, especially with just water (:eek:) is not going to ensure this. Synthesized clothing, recycled based explicitly on it compounds, would. It also avoid the labor.

'Breaking in' clothing is a feature of certain fabrics and processes (and certain personal, er, aspects, perhaps), especially cheap mass produced short duration goods. Made properly and tailored to fit, this is not an issue in the RW. With clothing made on demand, good fitting will be automatic and comfortable enough. (Not to say a certain percentage wouldn't be against it, naturally!)

Self-identity is assured when one can completely customize an outfit at will. With synthesis a norm, natural and exotic materials would be treasured for their uniqueness and the status of being able (or willing) to store aboard ship and keep clean. (Or banned for sanitary reasons!)

As to the more dis-ingenious arguments presented, recycling doesn't need to be 100% - starships are a closed system for only a finite time. Complex molecules, especially those created for the purpose, can be broken down.

Science and Fiction are the basis of Traveller, but if you just want naive fiction along the lines of the 'Brady Bunch in Space doing their laundry' knock yourself out. :rofl:
 
Funny enough, I see a laundry service as being part of that massive life support cost you get to pay. After all, everyone likes clean sheets!
 
I think you're making a distinction there, Cryton: a "service" implies customers. I can definitely see laundry as something a passenger craft takes on - people don't like to change their habits just because they're getting on a transport and going somewhere else.* For a spacer crew, they might do things differently - freshly "printed" disposable coveralls might be just what they need/want for shipboard. Then, perhaps, they keep the "bought" clothes for when they go dockside and such.

BytePro, you mention synthesizing water. But, consider how easy it is to purify water, too, given a fusion reactor - just pop it into a steam chamber, then into a condenser, and let the plasma clean out the leftover waste products. (Or, as someone on the Life Support thread mentioned, turn it back into meat. *SHUDDER*) On top of which, why can't you use the exact same fresher an individual uses to take a shower, and deal with the resultant issues in the same manner? There's 4 settings: normal, delicates, body, delicate body. (That last one is for the girls. ;) )

* I know that dirtside folk may have different opinions on "printed" clothes, too. I'm just saying it would be an option.
 
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