Condottiere
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Launch tubes were around in Classic.
A rather extended one, I would guess.
A rather extended one, I would guess.
1g Ships and Size:7 worlds...
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I think this is ONE ASSUMPTION too far.
[The rest, I can comprehend both YOUR interpretation and MIKE's interpretation ... but I cannot split that hair. You made some good points about VTO and the Vector Movement Rules.]
(... but I still think that the resulting vector for HTO can be broken into a vertical component representing the weight that must be supported by the wheels on the ground and a horizontal component that represents acceleration. At some point the END POINT of the Resultant Vector will be above the surface of the Planet and the Ship will be in a very low ORBIT. Each turn after that, the END POINT of the resultant vector will be increasingly further from the surface and the G band will be less. ... You and I will have to agree to disagree about dividing a vector that terminates inside a planet into vertical and horizontal components.)
I agree ... but would it make sense to suggest that the effect of Gravity on that entire movement might best be measured from the centerpoint of the RESULTANT VECTOR from the START of the Black vector to the tip of the ARROW on the green accel vector (the midpoint of the proposed movement vector)?Take this simplified example of a ship passing a planet moving briskly:
It would make no sense to use the green acceleration vector to determine the effect of gravity?
It is a TRIVIAL difference in this example, but what if the Black Vector was only twice the length of the Green Vector and the angle between them was 90 degrees? Then the position of the midpoint would be dramatically shifted by the proposed acceleration.... possibly by several range bands. The ship has gone from touching the 1G band to crossing the 0.25 G bands ... so What G Band should you apply to the proposed course? With ACCEL or Without ACCEL?
That is the scenario that supports Mike's interpretation (just as Liftoff supports your interpretation).
FYI: If the ship Begins and Ends its turn at the Planet surface (flying Tree Top Height) then the "midpoint" of the vector in both the APPROACH and DEPARTURE will be far from any G band ... thus the Planetary Gravity will not effect the craft, but if the "midpoint" of the turn places the movement vector at the Planet surface (flying Tree Top Height), then the 1.25 G band Gravity Vector will force the craft to experience "Litho-brakeing" and end its flight. That was the sort of fiddlyness that I always disliked about the Vector Movement rules [well, that and how quickly the rulers and table were not big enough].
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Actually I think the vector movement system in LBB2 is the least bad major system in LBB1-3, it's rather good. Way too cumbersome to actually use, but still. Many parts of LBB1-3 show clear signs of thoughtful design, unlike say LBB4 or LBB5'79.I think this is ONE ASSUMPTION too far.
Accelerating sideways, while supported by the ground is pretty much what we do with cars regularly. I have so far failed to fall off the edge of the Earth...
Yes, if we abandon LBB2 and talk of the real world, that is the definition of an orbit. You move sideways so fast that you miss the planet you are falling towards.
On Earth ground level orbital speed is roughly 8 km/s (~29 000 km/h), a bit less with acceleration, a bit more with friction. A ridiculous speed to travel on the ground. Many thousands of km of runway.
How close to 3600 kph have you gotten?
1000 seconds at 0.1 G horizontal acceleration yields about 3600 kph (allowing for HUGE losses to atmospheric drag and friction from a 1.0G drive) … about 1/7 orbital velocity.
I can briefly catch a little air at 100 kph if the road has a hill.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Yes, that is what I'm trying to get Mike to say. So far he is stubbornly saying use the green accel vector only, as far as I can tell, but that is presumably not what he means?
Luckily we don't have to guess what LBB2 wants us to do, as they told us. The vector from our position to the end of the green vector isn't defined in LBB2...
I tried it, but it took way too much time. And then I realised I was supposed to track the vector of each missile fired, and I laughed at the silliness.
Worse, most player don't really get vector movement, but the characters (Pilots) are supposed to be experts at it. Once the players fails to intercept an enemy because they are sliding off the game area accelerating erratically, it's time to give up.
I never really came to any weakness in corner-cases...
One-dimensional vector movement (Starter?) probably works better, at least if missiles are simplified.
I agree. That’s what Oceans and LBB abstract vector rules are for.
The real world has “angle of attack induced lift” which the Movement rules (thank goodness) do not. Planets are also not perfectly round and orbits are not circular and lots of things are way too complex for a game mechanics … but the silly game already has VECTOR MATH, so splitting a diagonal vector into vertical and horizontal is identical to combining a horizontal and vertical vector to create the diagonal vector in the first place. The fiddly was already there.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Current land speed record seems to be ~1200 km/h, needing two jet engines with total ~220 kN trust for a 10 tonne car. That is about a 2 G drive.
Several km/s on land just isn't practical.
We would have to fly, but we'd need massive wings to get a 2000 tonne brick off the ground at reasonable speeds.
A 2 G drive is just a lot easier...
Sure, and then you fall back.I can briefly catch a little air at 100 kph if the road has a hill.
Well, YES.
What I remember vividly is accelerating from detection range, and them accelerating towards you because both parties want to fight … then you arrive in attack range and get 1 shot before shooting past each other at such high velocity that it will take FOREVER just to stop and turn around to try again.
It was the antithesis of every sci-fi book or movie ever made.
AnotherDilbert
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Oceans are lousy runways, they are quite bumpy and, at speed, quite hard.
There is lots fiddly physics, but there's just no way we are realistically getting anywhere near orbital speed on a planets surface.The real world has “angle of attack induced lift” which the Movement rules (thank goodness) do not. Planets are also not perfectly round and orbits are not circular and lots of things are way too complex for a game mechanics … but the silly game already has VECTOR MATH, so splitting a diagonal vector into vertical and horizontal is identical to combining a horizontal and vertical vector to create the diagonal vector in the first place. The fiddly was already there.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Yes, that is what happens the first few times. Any Pilot or Navigator worth their salt should have been able to solve that in their sleep, hence an abstract system is more realistic.
"You want to intercept?" "Roll a Pilot roll..." Done. Saved a few hours of game time.
Is there any way to get near “angle of attack induced lift” speeds and then accelerate at NOE and higher as speed increases?
We are attempting to use a simplified vector mechanics to model an infinitely complex process (launch physics really is ‘rocket science’).
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
I have no idea, I don't do fluid dynamics. I guesstimate from actual aircraft.
If there were good tricks, the aero industry would use them? They still use quite large wings.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
It's often easier to see what you can't do.
Newtonian mechanics are easy. Launching a rocket with less thrust than weight isn't happening, with lots of thrust it's trivial.
Fluid dynamics isn't quite that easy. Doing something difficult, at the border of what's possible, is what professionals gets paid for...
I believe very firmly in the movement system, but the paired combat system does need some tweaking to make it the full on terror it should be.
Closing battles would take longer to prosecute then one shot in most cases when we are talking the average battle space, inside the 100D limit.
Common scenarios include stern chases with the lead ship very much wanting to get away, High Guard refueling fight, and planetary siege/assault where simply leaving is not the best/acceptable course of action. The latter can go for days at relatively slow velocity, punctuated by high speed missile runs.
The fleeting seconds shot could occur where a fleet is in the middle of a long range multi-AU accel/decel course and a presumably small disposable fleet hits it head on with missiles. The resulting carnage could have a disproportionate amount of damage done, but require a precise plot to achieve intercept. Maintaining a scout force following the fleet would be imperative and quite hazardous.
Pirates would have a tough row to hoe with interception and boarding. I’ve come to the conclusion most of that is done with small craft just because of their much cheaper high Gs and disposable nature, keeping the Corsair or other starship as long range fire support/mothership and not on slow matching courses.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Um ... that only works if you take the ground with you into orbit.
As soon as your wheels depart the ground, if you do not have enough "UP" happening to oppose the "DOWN" of gravity ... You Are Not Going To Space Today™.
Or are you trying to set "land speed records" in the Mach 25+ regime as your (clever?) plot to achieve escape velocity from the bottom of a gravity well (under atmosphere)?
Whut?
I'm going to have to assume you misspoke/mistyped something there.
Are you trying to claim that "tree top altitude" is zero gravity territory?
The DOT and the ARROW are not the MIDPOINT.Whut?
I'm going to have to assume you misspoke/mistyped something there.
Are you trying to claim that "tree top altitude" is zero gravity territory?
If the Arrow of one vector ends at NOE above the planet surface, where is the midpoint of a long vector? [outside the G bands]
If the DOT of the next vector begins at NOE (where the previous vector ended), where is the midpoint of a long vector? [outside the G bands]
So RAW, the starship shaved the TREE TOPS, but was never affected by GRAVITY.
If the same ship with the same length vector passes at the same NOE tree top height, only this time the midpoint of the vector is at the NOE and the DOT and ARROW are outside the Gravity bands, then [RAW] a Gravity vector is added and the ship crashes into the planet.
My complaint was too much depends on the details of a vector that get in the way of ROLEPLAYING the adventure. The "luck of the draw" for where a vector starts, ends and has its midpoint will allow or prevent Hans from being a great pilot (or just creating a crater).
You are arguing REAL WORLD PHYSICS and I am merely speaking of a stupid VECTOR MOVEMENT RULE SYSTEM.
The CT Vector Movement Rule System does not say "You Are Not Going To Space Today" even once. It just talks about Gravity Bands and where vectors end and midpoints of those vectors. So please stop chastising me for the limitations of the rule system ... I didn't create it. I was only 15 years old in 1977.
1000 seconds at 1G is a LONG vector ... add two of them together and you have a long straight line before you apply the Gravity Vector based on the Gravity band at the midpoint of that line. I don't care about atmosphere ... because the RAW have guidelines for subtracting a vector for it. Issues with REALITY are not MINE to deal with when I am only attempting to apply RAW to these "edge" cases that you came up with. I would just use pg. 10-11 and save Vector Movement for Space Combat rather than Liftoff to Orbit. I just saw that VERTICAL was not the only possible thrust vector in the silly rules.
So RAW, you are correct. Until my VECTOR is long enough [not that hard with 1000 second turns and 1G acceleration] for the end of the Movement + Thrust - Gravity Vector to be above the Planet surface (a perfectly smooth, round imaginary circle in the Vector movement rules), the craft is on the surface. Once the end is over the surface of the world, each subsequent vector will place it further from the surface of the world (velocity exceeds local gravity in the Vector Movement). There are no roads or mountains or oceans in the Vector Movement system; there is just a planet circle and gravity bands and vectors.
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