1130

[daryen]

Norris wanted nothing to do with Dulinor. I do admit that it is quite ironic that he ends up implementing political reforms that were likely very similar to what Dulinor wanted to do with the Imperium. But that doesn't mean Norris would respect him, follow him, or pay fealty to him.

When he sent the Arrival Vengeance he was willing for them to try and make contact with Lucan, if at all possible. (It wasn't.) However, he very pointedly had them avoid any possible contact with Dulinor.

In 1127 Norris declared independence, because he viewed the Imperium as hopelessly unrecoverable. This was a very popular move by most of the commercial and political leadership in Deneb. By the time of Dulinor's coronation fleet in 1130, Deneb had been independent for almost three full years.

So, assuming Dulinor wins what is left of the Imperium, Norris doesn't care. The Imperium has been dead for thirteen years, and he quit carrying the candle after ten. The fact that Dulinor is now in charge merely confirms the death of the Imperium.

There is nothing there to convince Norris to defy the majority of his constituency by joining Dulinor's Imperium. And that is joining Dulinor's Imperium, not rejoining the Imperium.

 

[kafka47]

There is also the point that Norris was the most reluctant democrat. Dulinor's reforms, if they were implemented would have undercut Norris' powerbase.

The problem of this and the other Rebellion thread has been the utter vilainization of Dulinor. However, if you look at the Rebellion Sourcebook there is at least a balanced viewpoint.

Is just me, who had a soft spot for Dulinor seeing him as the tragedic & flawed Brutus of the 57th century. When I suggested this the first it result in a flamewar in which my eyebrows have still have to grow back.

Could we at least have a civil discussion the merits of Dulinor's case?

 

[mike wightman]

I've always considered Dulinor's aims as noble, to encourage more Imperial involvement in the affairs of member worlds and to increase the standard of living for its citizens.
There was even precedent for the method he chose to employ.
Problem is that he botched the job...

 

[aramis]

Kafka, you are not the only one with a soft spot for Dulinor. His goals were very clear and useful:
standardize the code of law, protect everyone equally, and let everybody share in the wealth a little bit. hey in fact that matches up nicely with the fill for T4...

And the vilani are quite likely to accept a de facto emperor; thanks for the reminder there, RoS. He'd need o jump hoops to become their de jure emperor, but he'd do it.

As to the assertions that the vilani had not lost their markets: once they declared independence, Norris seized assets; Lucan absolutely would have, and Brzrk and Margaret both probably would have as well. Plus, they had canonically begun pulling assets out prior to the news of the assassination; it could be argued that they put Dulinor up to the assassination, and used the whole of the rebelion as pretext to become a nation again.

 

[kaladorn]

Aramis is right, I too have a soft spot for Dulinor. Oh... wait... translator glitch. I meant 'soft point' as in slug.

His goals may have been lofty, but the idiocy of choosing the method he did to pursue them cancels all respect his goals might engender. How you protect everyone in the Empire by killing a pile of people to lay the groundwork is beyond me. To me, he's just an impatient fool.

Dulinor may have been a Brutus, but Brutus was equally flawed in his approach to the problem. You can't improve things by resorting to violent succession in any kind of civilized society. It sets unacceptable precedents. (Heck, the original RoA should have been tossed out by the Moot! Talk about your insane idea for governance... of course, the idea of a for-life potentate is a bit dubious to begin with...)

 

[kafka47]

As promised gentlebeings, I found my version for an alternate MT solution based on Hard Times & the purchase of the TNE sourcebook. These two gamebooks came at the same in my FLGS in which I was disgusted with at the time [I have subsequentially found to enjoy TNE and Hard Times] but mined for many ideas...like this one...should I find more campaign notes, I can post them if the others like what they see.

The Fall of the Third Imperium had disastrous consequences for the economics of Chartered Space. The disintegration of this mighty power opened the gates to waves of looting by barbarian races (Vargr, Hk’tar, and Aslan), without protection from the powerful Imperial Navy, entire sectors were ransacked and the planetary economies returned to micro-polities that existed or were artificially recreated called Pocket Empires. Trade and commerce within the borders of the Third Imperium came to a halt; almost overnight what had been a prosperous and buoyant economic system vanished under the merciless weight inflicted by the Black War. The Imperial Credit as a means of exchange disappeared and economic transactions regressed to straightforward barter. Travel in particular became increasingly difficult and dangerous as jump routes and safes became infested with pirates. Using violence as the sole instrument of establishing and maintaining legitimacy, warlords began to carve out state-shells out of the former territories of the empire. These new rulers came to control larger areas of interconnected pocket empires imposing heavy taxes on anyone wishing to cross them. Consequentially, the economy of the former Imperium lurched backwards to a state of autarky based on simple industrial production and war and on some worlds even agricultural production.

The disintegration of the Zhodani Consulate had a similar impact on the economies of its peripheral territories. Far Frontiers and other space near the Vargr Extents were hit hard by the implosion of the Consulate. The abolition of the monetary system while the closure of Zhadant financing facilities drained the monetary lifeline of entire sectors. At the microeconomic level the drawing of new borders, between pocket empires severed ancient trade routes, blocked supplies from reaching critical markets and hindered commerce. For example, the Fergana subsector that had operated as a commercial unit was spilt amongst several minor races; worlds were cut off from markets and each of the races plunged into greater poverty. Economic growth, already slow, ground to a halt and economies began to decline. Widespread corruption and repression policies characterized most of the governments that emerged from the Zhodani Consulate. In the absence of any democratic form of dissent, political opposition became polarized around radical exclusivist groups. In the struggle that followed warlords and terror groups attempted to carve out their own patches of sustenance economies based predominately on industrial (pre-stellar) and war.

The desolation of the Third Imperium and Zhodani Consulate’s territories was in harsh contrast to the splendor of Aslan & K’kree civilization. Kinur and the Aslan clan worlds and the worlds hugging the great rifts were vibrant with culture and wealth. The decline of the Third Imperium was even more evident because it coincided with the spread and blossoming of the New Lords movement (amongst the Aslan) and the Lords of Thunder (amongst the K’kree). By 1116, the Aslan & K’kree reached to other side of their respective Rifts; and over the next two decades they had moved into new territories on the other side. The Aslan & K’kree colonization was, like any colonization was cruel and ruthless. Aslan pirates infested the Rimward territories of the Marches whilst K’kree warships offered “assistance” through Non-Aggression Pacts to the various Pocket Empires of Gateway. By the end of the century, what the Imperials referred to as the civilization “Behind the Claw” had become an extension of the Hirate and the Lords of Thunder had become a major player in the Interstellar polities of Gateway, inaccessible to any other powers but open to trade from all worlds under Aslan & K’kree sway with staggering results in the field of economy and industry (with each power reaching a TL G in their core worlds). Commerce along the edges of the other interfaces such as with the Hivers or Solomani ground to a halt leaving those areas to stagnate but allowing those two powers to find new ways to cooperate with each other. However, unlike the Solomani, the Hivers have a distain for the products of war whilst the Solomani bogged down with their internal conflicts whilst able to retake most of the sphere could not launch further into the Wilds. The great Manipulator Dammahom who by other profession was a cross border trader of military goods and fine commodities had encouraged and the development of new markets but only a select few from the Federation had followed his example. Commerce in turn spread Hiver culture across the ashes of the war torn territories beside former Solomani & Imperial territory (Hinterworlds and the like). Proof of this was the widespread usage of Hiver currency which could found in the Wutan Corporate Worlds, Terra and even Home as a means of exchange.

Now the year is 1210, Out of the Ashes, a new entity is raising laying claim to the title of Imperium. Is it another warlord just wanting a larger slice of the pie? Lucan & Dulinor are both old men who have nothing to offer their respective Imperiums. This fourth Imperium seems to something different.

For those who are interested in my take on the Fourth Imperium ought to check out my Thread of the same name…while it bears some similarity to the TNE concept it differs from it in substantial ways.

 

[Swiftbrook]

Just some quick thoughts:

Deneb effectively splits with the 3E. It would take 20+ years after the formation of the 4th Imperium for the 4I to reclame Deneb, if they wanted to.

Dulinor burns out his ability to win in his persuit of Lucan and conquest. He has a choice, stop and rule what he has or continue his persuit and lose all his support. He chooses to rule and his realm expands 2-3 subsectors out as it stabilizes

Vland may not be a military might right now but it is an economic power. Vland has tried to stay out of the fight, saving resources. Though many megacorps have pulled out of reagions, they have not lost their influence. This economic influence blunts, deflects, or outright prefents any aggression against Vland. With Dulinor's settling down, Vland expands 2 or so subsectors out as systems quickly want the stability, and economic benifits Vland can offer.

Margaret is just a petty thief. She isn't going to risk anything if could cause her to lose her domain. She'll make quick treaties with anyone.

Solomani will expand out to about their old borders and run out of steam.

Lucan will continue in his ways killing off or driving off all his supporters. He becomes a non issue and his realm fizzles to just small confederations.

Daibei and Antares continue but don't expand. If they expand, they may be preceived to be a threat.

Strephons area is absorbed by Dulinor and Vland.

Aslan's are over extended and they get their butts spanked by Deneb. They then expand spinward (left

).

All in all, fragmented, disorganized, and rebuilding. By the time any faction has rebuilt and can even think about expanding, the other factions also have rebuilt and are powerful enough to make any fight not worth fighting.

-Swiftbrook

Just My Thoughts

 

[Renard Ruche]

Been exploring old posts, and came across this one...awesome!

Here is something I have come up with after re-reading HT and gazing at that 1248 map (still in the thinking stages, so comments welcome):

Say that the Coronation Fleet is defeated...Dulinor is either killed in battle or takes his life/is put out of his misery on the way back to Ilesh. Lucan returns to Capital in another pyrrhic victory, since what was left of his major fleet elements took severe loses in the battle. Unable to follow-up on the death of Dulinor, he goes back to Capital to lick his wounds and plot further...

Isis takes up her father's banner and becomes the leader of Ilesh. Margaret continues in some fashion, Daibei and the Vegans continue thier resistance against the Solomani, helped along by the cracking of The Party in the Sphere. Vland refuses to acknowledge Lucan and continues it new Pacification Campaigns against the Vargr border. Norris officially declares indepence and Antares becomes part of the Julian Protectorate.

The K'kree and Aslan definately are trying to take advantage of the situation, and the Hivers have increased trading with the Solomani and the frontier areas of the former Imperium.

Think I have all the players covered.....fast forward 20 years...Diaspora, Massila, Zarushagar are home to various pocket empires, the Solomani have organized into something a bit different and have only slowly expanded back to Sphere borders, the exception being the Vegans who have retained independence. Daibei has stabilized and expanded slightly, as have Isis's realm, the Vilani and Margaret. The Spinward Marches have been wracked by border incursions, Zhodani fleeing the collapse of thier society and rennewed conflict between the SW and the Darrians.

And then there is the Core...I have never been easy with the Virus, but I love the idea of a Lucan strapped into a computer as posited by David Nielson in his posts. So...Lucan goes back to Capital to lick his wounds and plot revenge. He decides to have a neural interface surgically installed and begins to use the AI computer in the palace to augment his planning and thinking. Eventually, the two become merged....a logical psycopath with delusions of grandeur and and inferiority complex...lovely!
Lucan/AI begins to download bits of himself onto all naval assets, becoming it's own 'political officer'. Soon, officers are reduced in number, as well as crew. The technology is perfected to allow semi-sentiant ships....The Black Empire is born.

Obviously, this needs a bit of polishing, but I think it could be a really...interesting ATU

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

Helping with the thread necromancy...

I think the biggest development would be that political power in "Charted Space" would shift to the Solomani Sphere (and Deneb). The Solomani wouldn't be in position to expand further, for reasons already stated, but chances are they would remain the largest and most stable faction in Charted Space. In the years to come, The Solomani Sphere would fully recover the fastest, and thereby be in a position to influence the direction recoveries take in other areas.

Deneb, because it never conducted fruitless offensive operations, and because it never suffered from the worst of the Rebellion War (like Black War operations), would also recover quickly. In addition, because of the distances involved, Deneb and the Solomani would never run into direct conflict with each other.

Perhaps, after a couple of decades of recovery, the stage would be set for an active cold war, as both factions would struggle to control the reformation of interstellar civilization by proxy.

 

[Vargas]

By 1130, Lucan has been overthrown by his admirals, who rule in his stead. The map of Charted Space pretty much looks like the one of 1120 in the Rebellion Sourcebook; a scattering of independent regions fighting covertly and overtly for the worlds along their borders. There is no Hard Times because everyone doesn't want to pull that trigger, Strephon and Margaret have faded away and there's lots of adventure possibilities for PCs.

 

[scout_harris]

Oddly enough, I have been thinking of a post 1130 situation without virus. My turning point will be that the virus does not get uploaded to the Coronation fleet, but is instead destroyed.

Now, having had a think about what may happen next, my view is this.

Dulinor continues on to the capital. Considering that Omicron was a tough battle, I suspect the Coronation Fleet will have to fight all the way, with every world being destroyed by Lucan's "Scorched Earth" black war policies.

Dulinor takes the capital, after an extended siege, which destroys the palace and devastates the world. Dulinor ascend the throne only in the throne in the Footage he had prepared beforehand. (In my mind I have a picture of Dulinor standing near the wreckage of the imperial palace, his admirals behind him, a strong breeze blowing his cape behind him, as he finally realises his folly in attempting to take the Empire by force, and suddenly understanding that even now, the fighting has not ended.

Lucan has retreated with all the remaining forces from the safe to the Ley Sector, but as he leaves he destroys starports, naval bases, inflicting black war losses on the safe worlds of the Core sector in order to deny the facilities to Dulinor.
The former Core sector safe is now devastated.

Now, where do all the factions stand? Let’s assume Dulinor sends word to the all of them that he has taken the capital.

Norris can’t declare any loyalty to Dulinor. There are aslant clans who still remember how Dulinor gunned down their ambassador. If Norris swears fealty to Dulinor, all the efforts he has made to stabilise his border with the aslant will be for nothing. Even if Norris wants to reintegrate into the Imperium, it would be a bad political decision for Deneb, and it is not likely that Dulinor would be sending forces to help against the Aslan any time soon.. So Norris is forced to maintain his independence.

Similarly, Craig can’t declare fealty to Dulinor for the exact same reason. He wants the Aslan to attack the Solomani, he can’t do this if he has aligned himself with Dulinor. So Craig maintains his independence for much the same reason.

Margaret may declare for Dulinor. I never could get a handle on what she was about, except for maintaining a remnant of the Imperium, and fighting the Solomani. She might be the only faction leader who decides to declare for Dulinor, but I think the declaration will be in name only. She still has to fight the Solomani, so can’t spare material assets to help Dulinor.

Bzzrk is already dead, assassinated as per Survival margin. His forces will head in all directions, some heading for the Julian Protectorate, some heading for Ley (and Lucan) and others finding their own way elsewhere. The Antares faction vanishes, I suspect he Vargr will move into the vacuum.

The Vilani could go either way. But I think that they may decide that the time has come to determine their own future. Dulinor’s war against Lucan is far from over. They may decide to adopt a wait and see approach. Let’s face it, they are vilani. They are not going to make a risky decision.

Now lets look at poor old Archduke Adair down on the Solomani Border. For years he has been finessing help form Lucan for his fight against the Solomani, now Lucan can’t help him anymore, Dulinor has cut his supply lines. So he has to turn to Dulinor for help. But Dulinor wants to use his own limited resources for continuing his fight against the remnants of Lucan in the Ley Sector. Things are looking grim down there on the Solomani Rim. Guess he is forced to declare for Dulinor and hope that help comes.

The Solomani have been weakened by the war with the Imperium (or should we say, with Craig, Margaret and Adair), their offensive power had already diminished by 1127. And now they are facing possible Aslan incursions, and internal squabbles. Over the next few years, they will concentrate on getting the rest of the Solomani Rim and then consolidating their gains for a few years, as they integrate the worlds they have taken into the Confederation.

The Vargr will take advantage of the demise of Antares to start raiding in that sector, and move further towards the former imperial core.

Lucan will fall back to the Ley Sector, bringing with him forces stripped form the Core, he will establish a safe area. Militarily, he is now in a better position, as the number of enemies on his border has been substantially reduced, he no longer has to support Archduke Adair against the Solomani.. He will still want to “retake the throne”, which at the moment means denying capital from Dulinor. black war comes to the Core sector.

For Dulinor now, the Core worlds are devastated, and he is at the end of a long and tenuous supply line. His Coronation fleet achieved his objective of taking Capital, which now lies in ruins at his feet. With Lucan still continuing his black war upon him in the Core sector, he has no option but to retreat to his stronghold in Illeish. But he can’t vacate core entirely, he has to deny it from Lucan, so the war will continue for a few more years to come, devastating the Core sector and areas nearby.

So, by 1132, Lucan has established a new safe in the Ley Sector, where he fights against the Vargr, Dulinor and starts facing attacks from the Kkree. Antares has vanished. The Solomani Rim has fallen to the Solomani, but can still only be regarded as a frontier region. Margaret still fights the Solomani, but has stabilised her state, as has Craig. Norris expands the frontier in the Deneb sector, requiring territory taken by the vargr. Dulinor is still in his safe in the Illiesh Sector, still fighting against Lucan. Strephon’s safe continues to grow smaller, but may soon get help from Deneb via the rift. The Aslan second sons honour the treaty with Craig, but start limited operations against the Solomani, and still the war is not over.

Oh, I would also ignore the Empress Wave as well, leave the Zhodani intact.

 

[mbrinkhues]

That sounds like some nice ideas there scout_harris.

Lucan retreating to the Ley Redoubt maybe being dragged there by his loyal guards/admirals.

Some slight differences for me:

Norris will declare independence when Dullionor claims the throne. He can't declare for the man who tried to kill his emperor. Without Virus he has the drydock capacity to build a few TL15 J5 "Armored Transports" and trickle supplies into Usdeki through the rift (Taking the Islands worlds in the meantime) and stabilise Strephon, turning his remaining safe into a well-defended forward base. With a safe base to relocate his civilians too Strephon will likely "play ball". IF Dulinor finds out that Norris made himself Archduke he will likely use it, leading to some funny internal problems for Norris.

Same for Vland. Those are old worlds resonably untouched by the Black War so they should be abel to build a solid defense and keep what they have. They have already declared against Dulinor and have to fear his revenge/reparations/being forced to supply fleets. So they stick with their own

Maggie will likely pay lip service in return for "home rule" or go for a "Independent but allied" status, depending on what Dulinor has to offer and what dangers will come from being under his command. She is a good-minded opportunist. She is also quite likely to accept a peace offer from the Sollies (Her Domain is not in danger IIRC)

The Sollies will likely finish of Adair and maybe Craig, depending on the actions of Margaret and Dulinor. If Dulinor concentrates on Lucan, Craig will fall Aslan or not. By 1130 the Sollies should be at TL15 and they a far more homogenous system than the 29 Clans (who are TL13-14)

The Lords of Thunder remain a minor fanatical group without their virus enhanced fighters and broken down 3I. They might get a nuisance but never that big. The party will likely crack in the long (1160+) run and lead to either a splintering of the SolConf or a reformation.

The Julian League will swallow a good amount of Antares (1/3-1/2), straightening it's borders and then settle down and fortify.


The big unknown are the Zhos. IF there is no Empress wave, they might decide to go for the Regency sooner or later. This in turn might proof that the Suntrigger is real (TNE says it is) and we might get a look at what TL16 can do (The 3I in MT had some TL16, the Regency has TL16 ships in 1200) With the Regency abandoning the Psi-Laws this might get interesting. Wether or not this allies the Imperial Remnants remains to be seen (I'd say no). OTOH the Regency is a strong but small empire and a nice buffer state against stronger entities and the Aslan.

By 1200 we have the various Imperial Remnant that have stabilised and are rebuilding a few Sectors worth of space with various ideas in Mind:

Dulinor (Controling two safes of 2-3 Sectors each) rebuilds towards conquest of the Ley Safe

Lucan (Or the Officers controlling him) rebuild a 1-2 Sector safe towards defence and spoiling attacks against the "covered wall" that links Dulinors safes

Margaret (Controling one safe of 3-4 Sectors) rebuilds towards defence and trade

The Sollies (Controling all of the old Autonomous region) rebuild in general if they still exist as one nation, defending against internal problems

The Regency and "Bridgehead Usdeki" play Bismark (We don't want any more territory" and channel Aslan Itahei towards the Vagr Extents, Foreven etc.

The Vilanie are back in the good old days, doing things the good old ways and occasionally nuke a planet down to bedrock to proof that "Resistance is futile"

The space between the various safes is either a buffer zone consisting of client states engaged in proxy wars, neutral hotbeds of espionage, valiant polities struggling to remain independend and pirat kingdoms preying on the weak.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by scout_harris:
Dulinor takes the capital, after an extended siege, which destroys the palace and devastates the world.

That's pretty much how it goes in my version, except that I have Dulinor's flagship being damaged in the Omicron battle, and subsequently misjumping. Then he ends up under some agricultural machinery. So the fleet that takes Capital is actually under Hutara's (notionally temporary) command.

The result is that Hutara ends up with the fleet, and Isis ends up controlling Ilelish.

Lucan has retreated with all the remaining forces from the safe to the Ley Sector,

I have Lucan being assassinated during this period, and Archduke Tranian taking control of his remaining forces in Ley Sector. (Many of Lucan's forces having defected to Dulinor or Margaret, deserted or having fled into exile, of course.)

So I don't really have a "winner". Both Isis and Margaret have "legitimate" claims, but neither can either make them stick, or make any serious attempt to do so.

Back to your version...

Margaret may declare for Dulinor. I never could get a handle on what she was about, except for maintaining a remnant of the Imperium, and fighting the Solomani.

I always saw three key aspects to Margaret:
(1) If Lucan was disqualified or eliminated, she was the legitimate heir. Of course, that made her a threat to Lucan...
(2) She represented the pre-Rebellion status quo, being neither a Dulinor-style reformer, nor a Lucan-style loony. Instead, she was a good old-fashioned "business as usual/always" plutocrat.
(3) She had her own territorial base, through her marriage, which allowed her to operate as an independent warlord.

For Dulinor now, the Core worlds are devastated, and he is at the end of a long and tenuous supply line.

As I mentioned above, in my version, it's Hutara in this situation, and Isis is sitting back in Ilelish. In theory, Isis should come to Capital to be crowned - but that means putting herself in Hutara's hands... and he is the next heir... Maybe she might wait until she builds up a fleet of her own, to provide a suitable escort to her coronation...

Otherwise, our versions look pretty similar. That's not really surprising, if the point is basically to convert the unstable situation of the Rebellion into a status quo that could persist for at least a few years or decades.

One of the best historical reference points for all this stuff, IMHO, is the period after the death of Alexander the Great. For about fifty years afterwards there was a quite unbelievable sequence of wars, treachery, invasions and weirdness that neatly divided up Alexander's empire into a bunch of smaller states. This period was full of strange incidents and larger-than-life characters to be ripped off.

And if you think both Lucan and Dulinor being eliminated is unlikely, think again...

 

[Golan2072]

I've written a similar alternate history last summer, based in 1138 where the Virus was destroyed, Lucan went out with a blaze of glory (and took the world of Capital with him) and Dulinor had a pyrric victory.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Renard Ruche:
Opps...sorry, had a browser hiccup.

When your post is the last post in a topic, and you wish to do so, you may delete it by editing it, checking the delete check-box, and submitting the request.

 

[Renard Ruche]

Ahhh....thanks RoS.