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[jalberti]

Has anyone given thought to what would have happened in the MT universe if Dulinor's Coronation fleet had not boarded Lucan's research station and released Virus. What if the station was destroyed before it was boarded?

How do you think Hard Times would have evolved?

I have never been a fan of the TNE background. I think the TNE books are of high qulity and were very well written, but just did not like the big Virus sledgehammer

 

[alanb]

There have been various discussions of this in the past.

A brief summary of my version:
1. The Solomani pretty well overrun the whole of the original Solomani Sphere before running out of steam. (I'm not quite sure what happens to the Vegans.)

2. Dulinor dies in an accident after his flagship misjumps (due to battle damage).

3. The Coronation Fleet, led by Dulinor's brother Admiral Hutara seizes Capital. Lucan flees, but is eventually whacked by relatives of some of his victims. The remnants of Lucan's forces splinter. The largest chunk rallies to Archduke Tranian, who submits to Hutara.

4. Hutara takes control of Lucan's former territory until Isis arrives on Capital to be crowned.

5. Isis inexplicably delays her journey to Capital. Rumour has it that she doesn't really trust Hutara...

(Eventually, my version of the timeline would result in a bunch of relatively stable successor states).

 

[kafka47]

Hard Times could evolved into rival kingdoms trying to consolidate around absolutist states. In the Wilds, pirates begin to form bandit kingdoms like modern Southern flank of the ex-USSR.

Norris eventual opts out of the Imperium and begins to expand Spinward and entering into cooperation/conflict pact with Zhodani.

Margaret, Craig hold back the Solomani who begin to fragment themselves along party lines.

The K'kree launch a crusade into Gateway which begin to get Lucan worried. A hasty alliance with several Vargr bands save his but.

Dulinor is elected President of Illesh & Verge. Puts down the Guards Revolt led by Hutara and begins a process of democratic reform reformulating the Domain into a senatorial republic.

These forces all converge and conflict with one another but instead of fleet deployments the quiet art of diplomacy and spycraft is used. Major fleet actions were depleted by the Black War, however, technology continues to advance in the Safes which is the temping Generals/Admirals to launch new strikes. These rogue members of the military have to called in...but usually not before massive damage is done to the prestige of the political leadership creating a Third for civility in the borderlands between the Safes & Wilds.

 

[daryen]

I don't have the book handy, but Survival Margin seemed to imply that the Coronation Fleet had an excellent chance of success, had it not become infected with Virus.

I see no reason to believe that Dulinor would not have seized the throne and held it. If he could maintain space control and lay siege to Capital, all he would have to do is offer amnesty to all who flee Lucan once Lucan (and any clones) are delivered to him. Live delivery would not be necessary. Once Lucan was dead, the navy would fall in line pretty quickly.

At that point, he consolidates his victory with control over Lucan's and his domains, makes standing offers to Craig and Margaret to join, and goes from there. I imagine Craig would eventually join, but Margaret wouldn't. I do not see Lucan trying to expand at this point. He has enough to do just to salvage his smaller Imperium.

The end result is a smaller Imperium that includes the his, Lucan's, Craig's, and Strephon's domains. The Imperium would be about half its 1116 size, and cover around nine sectors.

The Solomani would have their sphere back, but be wracked by internal conflict. The Vegans would be in a very bad way initially, but could end up serving as a difference maker for the most favorable (to them) internal party in the conflict.

Margaret and Norris would each refuse to acknowledge Dulinor as emperor, and continue with their now stable domains as independent empires. Margaret's domain would continue its transformation into a corporate state.

Norris would institute the same reforms as with the Regency, but obviously the new state would not be named the "Regency". And without the need for Aslan cooperation to form the Quarantine, it is quite likely there would have been a full, all-out war with the Aslan. I would bet on Norris, particularly if he made the war clan-specific.

Vland would also refuse to rejoin, and would probably become quite a thorn in Dulinor's side, as they attempt to regain "their former glory". Their initial concern would be the Vargr, but after that they would be working hard to integrate as much of the former Antares domain as they could. They would also be plenty of conflict as the Vland/Imperium border was established.

Antares would remain a mess, though I imagine some portion of their far rimward section would rejoin the Imperium for safety from Vargr and Vland, if nothing else.

 

[aramis]

Actually, I think, once Dulinor consolidates the three spheres, Norris is fairly likely to make TOKEN obeisances unto Dulinor, and continue to operate fairly autonomously, under archducal authority, especially since Dulinor would damned near be forced to support the elevation.

Strephon, tho', is less likely to cave. If SM is correct, and the "Real Strephon" really is the real Strephon, he's not going to settle while Dulinor sits the throne. I suspect that would be a serious bit of conflict.

Antares might be co-opted: Dulinor adopts and declares as heir a Vargr youth, perhaps Brzrk's child? Not that I see Dulinor doing so.

Vland I see much as others: trying to become the 4th imperium.

 

[mike wightman]

Strephon could always cross the Great Rift and work hand-in-hand with Norris - would Norris support him?

 

[robject]

I think so (Arrival Vengeance). But would Strephon see jumping the rift as a cowardly move?

 

[alanb]

I will add a note to my version.

Obviously my version is influenced by the situation after the death of Alexander the Great.

A particularly interesting situation appeared during this period: someone won.

About 281 BC, Seleucus (Seleukos), the ruler of most of the eastern parts of the former empire, defeated Lysimachus, ruler of Macedonia and Thrace. This essentially put Selecus in control of the whole of Alexander's empire, bar Egypt and a few other odds and ends.

Seleucus was promptly assassinated.

The almost re-united empire broke up again.

Obviously, the best candidate for "Seleucus" in this situation is Dulinor. Even better, we have an account of his death that still works if we take Virus out of the picture.

Taking both Dulinor and Lucan out of the picture is a great stabiliser - they are the only possible winners of the Rebellion. Eliminate them and the fragmentation is complete.

And, frankly, I like the notion of Dulinor having his victory snatched away at the last moment. It seems a nicely ironic piece of justice for the murderous fool.

 

[jalberti]

If Dulinor obtained victory at the head of Coronation fleet, the tragedy that he will have to face is that his actions destroyed the Imperium he wished to save. The assasination in 1116 was only the start of the blood on his hands.

I could see Daibei moving to Dulinor, but not Strephon's worlds or Vland. I don't know about Margaret. Deneb is isolated from the whole affair, but based on what I read in Arrival Vengeance, I do not think Norris would recognize Dulinor.

Dulinor would be face rebuilding a shattered Imperium, with many factions that would not support him.

Another option is that the Coronation fleet is not successful. In that case, Hard Times would continue for a time, the factions would slowly recover. After they have recoveredit is then more than likely battle again with the fleets they have rebuilt.

Until one faction gains overwhelming strength oer the others, the Imperium will remain fractured.

 

[daryen]

I actually kinda like having Dulinor win. He would then have to live the rest of his life with the guilt of the death and destruction he caused. In other words, he won, but at the cost of his soul. And he knows that. The he was the victor, he was still a defeated man.

As for Strephon, I don't mean to sweep his losses to Dulinor under the rug. But Strephon had already renounced his claim to the throne and at this point was only interested in the safety and welfare of his people. He would be brought to the inevitable conclusion that it was in the best interest of his people to rejoin the Imperium, even if it was lead by Dulinor.

This is, of course, independent of his own feelings about Dulinor. It is quite likely he would choose to follow Avery to Deneb, rather than stay in an Imperium ruled by Dulinor.

I can't ever see Norris submit to Dulinor. He would use the excuse of distance (and the interference of Vlad) as an excuse to sever ties with Dulinor's Imperium.

 

[kafka47]

With all this flurry arround these topics on the Megatraveller boards...I wonder if Hunter & company would ever consider doing a rules free or T30 Megatraveller product release? That is to say after Marc finishes with the CD Roms (so that all the newbies know what we are talking about) and Martin has released 1248.

 

[aramis]

My personal view, as gamed out, was Dulinor, once he's put on the throne, reconquers his, Lucan's, and Strephon's domains.

Norris bows to the new emperor, but primarily as a token. Really, he runs the regency as always....

Margaret's area holds fast for a decade or so, and reabsorbs once INI/IRIS/ISIS whacks her. Likewise, for Brzrk, assassination. His heir is "protected" by pro-imperial persons.

The solomani sphere is intact, and troubled; the vegans maintain the VAD, but now pay tribute to the SC, not the 3I.

The Vilani and their Ziru Sirkaa are allowed a few years to rest, and are the FINAL, not the first, target of the Reuniting of the 3I. The entire weight is brought against them.

After that, Norris' heir must decide: Get a new life, or bow for real before the power of the 3I.

 

[robject]

I like it... and hate it at the same time. In other words, excellent work, and well thought out, as usual, Aramis.

 

[daryen]

Personally, I would prefer for a "restored" Imperium to not reconquer everyone.

Regardless, I doubt Deneb would be able to be reintegrated into the Imperium. Once Norris implements his psionic reforms, it is pretty much impossible for Deneb to reintegrate.

Likewise, I don't see Vland reintegrating for a long, long time, if ever. It would cause a long, expensive war, and it just wouldn't be worth Dulinor's effort. It will take several decades just to restore all of the blighted parts of what he has. Why would he make even more blighted parts he has to take care of?

You are right about Margaret's realm, though. She would resist, but her domain would eventually rejoin, even if it must wait until after her death.

 

[robject]

Aramis' view gives me that panicky feeling of "it's all happening too fast...", just like the Rebellion did at the beginning. And Lucan was a known quantity: a madman. Dulinor, an egotist politician with an impulsive sidearm, might be much more dangerous in the long run. The assassinations just makes it scarier. And the seige of the Restored ZS would be spectacular. Something to play wargames over, only this time the Imperials are not only the bad guys, but also the winners. Yes, this is a dark setting. It all goes wrong. Gives me the shivers, it does.

Not unlike the setting of Firefly, I've suddenly realized.

 

[aramis]

Dulinor is not so much impulsive, and inept at timing his coup.

Dulinor had populist reforms in mind. He was willing to do anything for the good of the imperium, and he saw Strephon was no longer a strong and effective leader, and could not see the strength of the reforms; if Strephon wouldn't, it fell to him to depose Strephon and impose the reforms himself.

Dulinor is a zealot and an idealist, and even somewhat practical. He's not going to order the assassinations, nor will he inquire when he finds out they occurred.

He should be seen as impressive, and decisive, even if not always right nor fully prepared. He is rightly to be feared, if you oppose him.

And the domain of Vland is too important and too much a core to be left to itself, especially with all the extra-domain assets they'd have lost during the War, and their pension for long memories.

And they could be much more easily crippled than captured; bring in a huge fleet, pinpont a manufaacturing world, destroy ONLY the factory districts (the maps are on file, after all), and repeat a few times. And each time, offer rebuilding aid if the planet as a whole votes to switch sides. And keep hitting those systems every few months to prevent rebuilding, and to prevent ship building.

And remember: Meson guns, even factor A-F are 100-150m spheres of annihilation. Dulinor WILL use them, plus economics, to bring the Bilandi under control; likewise, he's smart enough to let their commerce flow as soon as he's got control, and gets himself elected shadow emperor of the RZS... And lets not forget: if Nasiiraka goes through 5 CEOs in 10 months, all suspiciously, #6 is likely to be somewhat more anti imperial, but he's also likely to realize that if he doesn't ACT that way, he's less likely to be accident prone.

Lucan was mad, and random, and petty.
Dulinor was Cold, ruthless, charming, and fanatic.

Both should scare you. But at least, with Dulinor, you don't need to worry what color underwear you can't buy this year.

 

[daryen]

Aramis,

While I agree with your assessment of Dulinor, I also think, because of those characteristics, he would be forced (by his own character) to review once he had "won".

Upon review, he would now have to deal with the unimaginable suffering and waste he directly caused. Yes, he still is a fanatic, which would prevent him from walking away like Strephon did, and ruthless, which will let him do what needs to be done. But, he is still a populistic who felt he was doing what was best for the Imperium. There is no way he could see what the results of his actions are without being profoundly shaken, if not broken.

(While he most likely would not be broken (he does have a very strong will, after all), it is quite possible. All it takes is fully appreciating the enormity of what he caused. Plus, I think it makes for a better story (and a more sympathetic character) to have him be broken.)

Because of this, I really think he would not be worrying about those portions of the Imperium he doesn't have. He would have over half the old Imperium, and would have very few war fleets (it took almost all he had to make the Coronation Fleet). He doesn't have the extra capacity necessary to go out and conquer other factions, not can he afford the attrition that would result from a low-level, prolonged war.

If he is to have the Imperium survive, he must focus on consolidating his remaining Imperium and rebuilding. Remember, over half of his reduced Imperium is a complete wreck. It will require significant fleet assets just to clean out the vermin, pocket empires, and pirate states. He just doesn't have the time or resources to devote to subjugating unwilling factions.

That doesn't, however, mean there isn't conflict and "cold" war with both the Vilani and Solomani. It just won't be a war.

Back to Norris for a moment. If Norris sees Dulinor, a man whom he hates and has absolutely no respect for, become the Emperor, he would never return to the Imperium. In that light, he would continue to institute his reforms, both democratic and psionic.

An interesting result of this is that the disenfranchised nobility would become wonderful tools for Dulinor. The counterbalance of this is that if the Imperium becomes hostile, it is quite likely that the former Domain of Deneb would become allied with the Zhodani in order to maintain their dependence.

Wouldn't that be something to see: the Sixth Frontier war is fought by Norris as part of the Outworld Coalition, to maintain Deneb's independence from the Imperium. That would surely make everything stand on its head and spin! (Again, I don't think Lucan would bother; it just isn't worth the effort. But it is a cool idea!)

 

[RainOfSteel]

Situation: Dulinor leading Coronation Fleet in, and the Virus never existed (so the CF never headed for the Research Station).

Dulinor's thrust over to the RS meant it had considerable penetration success, because there weren't any substantial fleets in the way, Lucan was waiting for him at the RS with the elements he was able to pull together.

If the whole Virus/RS thing never existed, Dulinor would have moved directly on Capital. It would have been a knock-down drag-out war. Maybe he'd've lost, maybe he'd've won. Without seeing the OoB for both sides at that time, I find it difficult to successfully speculate.

However, since I really don't like Lucan (a lot more than I don't like Dulinor), I'll go along with the Dunlinor eventually won idea.

So, Dulinor's yacht (actually a 2000 dTon refitted SDB with 15 Points of Armor and Meson Screen and Nuke Damper 9) is descending through the air above Cleon City in the direction of the Imperial Palace. It docks with the Palace (or lands nearby and he marches in a grand parade to it, depending on how you view the DGP TD#9 details of the IP), and Dulinor enters. His forces have already carved a path to the Iridium Throne, and all interior defenses have been neutralized. Dulinor sits himself upon the throne, and declares his ascension once again complete (because he already did this before).

Things get interesting from here.

I do not agree that the RZS would not willingly rejoin. The original second ZS, post 2I (which isn't talked about much), willingly joined up with the nascent 3I, and the Sylean Federation that was all Cleon I had as nation state at the time, didn't have a zillionth of the history and pride and majesty of the 1100 year old 3I to work with. Dulinor would have a lot of legal papers and signed oaths and honor-bound stuff on his side. Vilani are very tradition driven, and with Dulinor's success, a great many would feel a consensus/joiner driven need to join up with the 3I again. However, in the fashion of the Vilani, there would be extensive negotiations. I could see them rejoining if Dulinor was willing to play to their psychological needs to see completely through all of the form, function, and pagentry the Vilani would require, all at a stately pace. If Dulinor could show the other reluctants that he was making progress in coopting the RZS, well then, that would be a huge diplomatic coup.

If Dulinor was further smart enough to stop offensive operations against the other domains, and to start rebuilding his own, while covertly encouraging the others to fight with each other, and to keep their separate rebuilding efforts from succeeding, well, he might have a shot at coopting them, as well (as long as these "covert" operation didn't get caught, of course).

 

[daryen]

I hadn't thought of it that way with the Vilani. You are probably right about them.

Again, I would fully expect that Dulinor, once he was victorious over Lucan, would stop offensive actions. He wouldn't need them, they would only hurt him, and he is smart enough to understand that.

[Edit: Fixed the above paragraph as Elliot notes below.]

 

[aramis]

I never got that Norris hated Dulinor. Norris does feel there is no "Clear Choice" for the emperor at the start of the rebellion, and refuses to take sides for the good of his people.

In fact, both imposed similar populist reforms; Norris in fact goes further once freed of Imperial Constraint and delves into republicanism in the official timeline.

I can easily see Norris negotiating terms with Dulinor. Branj sent to meet with him.

The pro-psionic reforms of the DD seem to be post 1130 in canon, so are irrelevant if Dulinor becomes a "Clear Choice", likeable or not.

Dulinor reminds me much of Gaius Julianus of the house of Caesar (AKA Julius Caesar). Ambitious but overlooked until too late, and then able to coax the most out of overextended resources.