lightsenshi
SOC-12
I was wondering the other day, are zero level skills still necessary? It seems to me that the answer is no.
Zero level skills
- Thread starter lightsenshi
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Cleon the Mad
SOC-12
I've been toying with, and may possibly impliment that all the starting homeworld skills are gained at level 1, instead of level 0. I know the idea of the homeworld skills is to give someone a couple extra class skills that fit their homeworld, but I guess I can see a Munchkin sort intentionally picking skills that one has to have a level in anyway, as opposed to some or all that are skills that can be level 0.
As an aside, I'm still going to keep the first level of JOT feat as functioning as if one had level zero in all of one's class skills, I do think that this is powerful enough, if one wants a more efective JOT, one can take the feat again, as the rules state.
Off the topic, I've been giving the Luriani the swim skill as free homeworld skill up and beyond the ones they would normally get. Most if not all the classes don't have swim as a class skill, and the Luriani homeworld, despite being a waterworld does not grant "swim" as a skill, due to it's high tech level (14). Just seems silly for them to have such a strong bonus in a skill they can't really impliment, at least for the majority of the subspecies. (or species? Are they classified as Homo Luriani or Homo Sapiens Luriani? They are almost infertile with most Homo Sapiens.)
They are only necessary for those skills that cannot be used untrained (e.g. Animal Empathy, Combat Engineering, etc.).
For these skills a rank of 0 means you can at least attempt to use the skill, even though the rank bonus is zero (you still get your attriobute bonus). For skills that can be used untrained, this is obviously far less useful.
I've found that homeworld skills can also be very important to a character's later development. Sure they only start out at 1 or 0, but they advance as class skills after that. This not only saves points, but also gives the character another way to develop skills outside their normal class, and occasionally surprise everyone with an odd skill that they learned "back home".
DGv2.0
Cleon the Mad
SOC-12
I've actually done something different. I already posted how I'm giving Luriani Swim as an extra homeworld skill. What I've also been doing is allowing one, if it's logical and if such is requested, to pick a homeworld skill even if it's not on the list. For instance, if someone from an Ag world wants "P/farming" and/or "K/agriculture" as one of their homeworld skills, they can have it. Some of these I'll even mention and suggest, that is one that I do for instance.
I did decide to keep homeworld skills at level 0, unless they have to be level 1, since they do create class skills that one might not otherwise get with many professions, and thus there is some limited benefit. Although I noticed that the free vehicle feat gives out it's piloting or driving skill at level zero, yet it seems like that if I were to take said feat as a normal feat later in character generation, I'd get the skill at level 1 according to the rules if I didn't have said skill due to another vehicle feat. So, I'm going to give out the vehicle operation skills assoicated with the homeworld vehicle feats at level 1.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
While Drive can be attempted unskilled, Pilot cannot, so even a Rank-0 is useful.
Note that the Homeworld Feat versions don't promote either of the skills to class skills, but both the homeworld and standard versions of Vessel give a Rank-0. In both cases, you are still avoiding the non-proficiency penalties for that class of vehicle without being particularly skilled.
As such, the progression is:
no feat, related feat, or skill: -4
related vehicle feat: -2
appropriate feat, starting: 0
feat plus ranks: +Ranks
Looks like a good progression to me.
Note that this really applies to vehicles that use Drive. Vehicles that require Pilot are much more strict:
no feat, related feat, or skill: -4 just for a straight line, no chance of anything fancy.
related vehicle feat: -2 but otherwise as above.
appropriate feat, starting: 0 for all activities
feat plus ranks: +Ranks
Note that the Homeworld Feat versions don't promote either of the skills to class skills, but both the homeworld and standard versions of Vessel give a Rank-0. In both cases, you are still avoiding the non-proficiency penalties for that class of vehicle without being particularly skilled.
As such, the progression is:
no feat, related feat, or skill: -4
related vehicle feat: -2
appropriate feat, starting: 0
feat plus ranks: +Ranks
Looks like a good progression to me.
Note that this really applies to vehicles that use Drive. Vehicles that require Pilot are much more strict:
no feat, related feat, or skill: -4 just for a straight line, no chance of anything fancy.
related vehicle feat: -2 but otherwise as above.
appropriate feat, starting: 0 for all activities
feat plus ranks: +Ranks
Cleon the Mad
SOC-12
Perhaps so, but if I understand right, if I let's say take vessel/grav or vessel/ground/wheeled during prior history, and if I don't have pilot for vessel/grav or vessel/wheeled already, I do believe the feat description states that I get the skill at level 1. To me, it seems logical that one would get pilot or driving at level 1 if one took such feats as homeworld skills. What is the real difference if one takes the feat as a homeworld skill, or if one takes it later in life during prior history, gamewise?
Cleon the Mad
SOC-12
Okay, I knew what threw me. On the homeworld skill tables on page 33, all the instances of driving are in italics, so thus somehow in my head I had it twisted that if one gains a vehicle feat yet does not have the skill, one must gain it at level 1. Still, to be honest, pilot is listed as "trained only", even though yes, it does indicate that one gains it at level 0 if let's say vessel/grav is taken, but one has no skill in pilot. So...I guess I'm going to have to decide if a vessel feat IMTU gives out a skill of 0 or 1 if taken sans skill. To be honest, I'm still leaning toward a skill of 1, even as a homeworld feat, at least with pilot, possibly drive. Other then maybe a low-pop, low-law level planet, can't see too many planets allowing people to actually fly something with out at least the training to get to level 1. And I can see a high law level planet, regardless of population or actual need, require such for driving.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hmm, I think I'd say the vessel feat represents the actual licensing/testing. The drive/pilot skills represent just that, skill and experience. I've known some drivers who have a license but no real skill, as well as a few who are quit skilled and experienced but never got a license. Anywho just my cr .02
Cleon the Mad
SOC-12
True...but the way the T20 rules are written, one gets the skill as soon as one gets the vessel feat, albeit the skill at level zero if not taken previouly. In fact, I do believe that one cannot take piloting or driving as a skill unless one has a feat for each skill. Plus, I still keep on thinking back to higher pop and/or higher law level systems and what they might require, along with piloting, even a Tl 14 air/raft, being probably more difficult then a Tl 5 or 6 ground car, and thus a governing body demanding that a show of at least minimal skill, i.e. an actual skill level of 1.
Okay, I MAY only impliment the free skill for piloting, I must admit that if one goes out to any lake here locally in the spring or summer, one finds a lot of people who are probably driving their boats sans any driving skill or perhaps even sans the vessel/watercraft feat for instance. But I must admit that IMTU, even if I drop the free skill for the driving based vessels, that I'm keeping it for the piloting based one.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Challenge that belief. The feat indicates that Rank-0 is awarded.
Mechanically, the difference between the feat as level feat and as homeworld feat is that the level feat turns either Drive or Pilot (of that vehicle type) into a permanent class skill, while the homeworld version does not.
At a RW level, it's the difference between growing up with grav vehicles in your life every day and thus knowing at some level how they operate (the homeworld feat) versus setting out to earn the license or being in the Marines training course on dropcraft piloting.
Smiling DM
SOC-12
Per the T20 rules, not really.
In my house rules, yes. My one beef with D20 in general is the lack of a penalty for having no ranks with a skill (and yet there is a penalty for lack of proficiency with a weapon).
To keep the game focused on having the right skill for the job and not trusting to high Stats to get you through the mess, I increase the DC for any task by +5 if the PC attempting the task has no ranks in the skill. This in effect moves the task up one level in difficulty (per the descriptors given for different DC's).
Seems to work very well in my game.
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