Why? Why?? Why!!!

[Lord Iron Wolf]

It seems that every new version of Traveller is always trying to backdate the environment of the game to Pre-Virus...It's History! It's fiddly & Boring! Why bother...

When is a new version going to evolve beyond the Virus and its effects? Until we do this why go beyond tweaking the rules system of Classic Traveller to go over the rough spots or to make the thing more complex than munchkined 3E.

Traveller was very simple and elegant and that was why it could be played easily and adapted to any background.

If we're going to take the Traveller game anywhere, we had better place it a few hundred years beyond the effects of the Virus on all Charted space. (Don't try to tell me that these various empires didn't copy each other's technology along with the Viruses' ability to mutate. Something had to crush it and not allow it the chance to reinfect computer systems--otherwise there is no real chance of the future in space.

With the cultural shock, there should be new ways of thinking and technology for a background set a few hundred years in the future. Old boundries and empires shouldn't exist anymore and different ways of looking at societies/sophoponts should have evolved.

What is that Future and why aren't we working on it??? Why are we wasting our energy on a piece of history. With the new, real world technology and a few hundred years we could update the Traveller Universe to reflect this and make Traveller a modern game not thought of as a quaint antique.

We need to brainstorm the future--and don't even bring up the aRCES--Traveller needs to evolve to remain healthy.

I'll leave it here and await other opinions and ideas

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[hunter]

There is a TNE Sourcebook in development now that will do just that. Pick up the timeline around where it left off and begin moving it forward again. Check the TNE Forums here.

Hunter

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Wolfie,
First-off, it's clear that you love Traveller. I do too. It's clear that we need to work with the mechanics of the game to "modernize" them, true enough.

But when it comes to timeline, I'm voting with the crew that calls the Virus STUPID, the Rebellion excessive. I understood the logic of getting players out of the Marches and the Rim and explore the interior of Imperial Space; to make it less monolithic and more vibrant or active. But the Rebellion did not have to descend into the Hard Times and Virus. And the Reformation Coalition was about as useful as a knife in a gunfight.

Fact is, I think that everyone is somewhat stymied by the Commodore Bwana Effect.... Virus is official, much to most of our dismay, but the fact is nobody can see Imperial Space as nothing but a wreck. Between Aslan and Vargr Expansion, the threat from the K'kree, not to mention Vampire Fleets with capital ships.... what the hell can you do with it? Imperial humanity is destined to be in a semi-permanent Long Night. Oh, joy, sign me up....

Why do we concentrate on Imperial History? Because the future in the former Imperium is a landscape of ashes. And I didn't like playing "Aftermath" the first time.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Hear Hear, Lord O'Flynn...

I also hold the opinion that the Rebellion and Virus storylines blow. I know they were concocted to give the background a "Shot in the Arm" or something, but I thought only RIFTS could sink that low in plotline stinkiness. There is a "reversion" movement to reflect this fact to no end. Of course its all a matter of opinion, but I enjoy a functioning Imperium over a hyperviolent dystopia that I wouldn't let my Doom Character Play in. One might as well play Gamma World, what?

I currently play in a Campaign set in 1000. Ripping fun, what?

 

[MJD]

It's true that the Recovery Period (1200-1220 ish) is a bit like the Morrow Project (I like the Morrow Project, and I had fun in the Recovery) but Mileu 1248 has a funcitoning Imperium, rival states, and wilds in between.

1248 will move forward. Things are different, yet familiar. Canon has to be respected, but sice we were never told how it all had to turn out, the story doesn't have to be one of ruin and devastation.

 

[Father Fletch]

I think that to ignore the Rebellion and Virus is to go into IMTU and build an alternate for your own game group. According to an interview with MM Here he states that

6) Was the idea of the Rebellion originated at DGP or GDW?

For good or ill, I claim the concept of the rebellion and the assassination.

7) When the Rebellion was conceived was there a idea for an ending in mind
or was the situation as described in the Rebellion Sourcebook as far as it
had been taken?

We envisioned the rebellion creating a chaotic universe with less, rather
than more, Imperial control.

It seems that the GDW universes tend to move from disorder to order, which
creates less opportunity for adventurous role playing.

10) When did the Real Strephon become real? (IITR comments by Loren that
this was his idea?)

The TNE situation is a sticky one. During the transition from MT to TNE, I
left GDW "to pursue other interests" and responsibility fell to Dave Nilsen
for handling Traveller. At the same time, the decision was made (as GDW slid
downhill) to consolidate the T2K and TNE game systems to make rule
management easier.

Much of TNE reflected a continuing need to create chaos in the Traveller
universe (to encourage role-playing adventure). I was not consulted on much
of this work.

As a matter of canon, I have resolved that TNE (virus, etc) is part of canon,
and needs to be explained as best it can. Some of the material was never fully
explained to me, or even documented as to its final result.

Dave Nilsen, because he is no longer with GDW, is no longer able to detail
the answers to some of the conepts he posed (Empress Wave, etc), which now
falls to me to explain. I have not concocted canon explanations for them (at
least that I want to publish yet).

Similarly, Loren, while at GDW, determined that Strephon was the Real
Strephon, and that became canon.

That works for me. I will prefer to run in OTU when I can, preferring to make any changes more of the house rule variety.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

I read that brief interview with Marc and I want appreciate the info. It explains some things, that's for sure.

I prefer the OTU as well, as it has comparitively fewer "transdimensional death-ray guns" per capita. Stuff like that is the reason I like Traveller to begin with.

Like Marc, I miss Frank Chadwick, Lester Smith, the Fugates, and the Keiths. I loved their work like an old friend. BUT Iron Wolf is right when we have to look to the future, else we're gonna find ourselves Ancient Relics. So, we've got G:T as an ATU, and T20 working with some Imperial History. The T5 glimpses I've seen look interesting, and we've the intimations of the New Era sourcebook Hunter and Martin have seeded us with. I'd like to see what 1250 era looks like.

But Martin, maybe it was my referee, but I'll disagree with you about the Recovery. I can't believe that the RC could get it's act together in just 20 years. Our game seemed to be nothing more than a loot-fest ala D&D. We were trying to preserve the RC, not rescue those poor sods in Diaspora Sector who were "killing each other over unopened cans of dog food", as a critic of Aftermath put it. And the whole thing was a Hiver Manipulation anyway. No doubt there is a shrine to "M.Feng Shui" amid the grubs on Guaran.

We'll see. Right now I AM having fun in the Rim War era, and people more talented than I am are working on it (that would be you guys). I'm getting more interested in the "how-to" of writing Traveller RPG material, and I hope to have an effect in Traveller's future.

Funny. I can't think of another game with THIS kind of fan support, eh? In a day and age where folks are predicting the death of pencil and paper gaming due to mmorpgs, we seem to not be all that worried about it...

 

[Kentares]

I jumped in the Traveller universe from T2K in the New Era time and I must say I had great fun (as a GM) with that. I found the Virus idea an excellent one although since I got in here there is a lot more to it that I dont like it (according to what some people suggested about the Virus).

 

[TKalbfus]

That was a very short Dark Ages. I'm suprised there weren't a series of successor states to the Imperium such as the Regency Ala middle ages with Kingdoms, Duchies, Counties, and Baronies. Varoius Nobles might find themselves running their own Interstellar States, you would think they might be somewhat reluctant to swear allegiance to another Emperor when they can have their own kingdom.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:
It seems that every new version of Traveller is always trying to backdate the environment of the game to Pre-Virus...It's History! It's fiddly & Boring! Why bother...

For the same reason people bother to publish historical sourcebooks. It's History! It's fun! Yaay!!


Hans

 

[kafka47]

Well, like it or not all versions of Traveller are still children of Classic Traveller. But, Classic Traveller alluded to a wider canvas called the Imperial Campaign which in short is the story of the rise of the Solomani and their eventually downfall due to the eternal hubris of humaniti.

Plus, as much as any ruleset could be developed would you buy a game system where you would play Samuri-lions or Gun totting Dogs (ok, maybe there is a market for that now after D20 Modern) or really freaky vegetarian centaurs but in all seriousness?

We relate to the Human dominated universe because we are human, to explore what it means to be human we need the History. One of the reasons I abandoned the idea of the Ancients Sourcebook was that I could not get myself to think like a Droyne. So we reflect upon our history and project it outwards. The secret I think is the Third Imperium sourcebook that has been discussed, then immediately we can develop the Other, as foils or rivals to the Third Imperium.

Marc used to have a Mission Statement on his website and that is what Traveller is about. But, it is significant, if others want to follow a different path and that is what T20 has done by recreating CT where the universe is one's play area.

 

[roygbiv]

I've come up with my own approach: have a non-canon pocket empire in the Hinterworlds. For convenience, I've set this circa 1085 so that I have years before everything drops in the pot. Though there is interaction between my PE, the Imperium and the Solomanis, all of this takes place way above the heads of my characters.

While the grand Imperial story arc does provide an exciting background, I've never been involved in a Traveller game where the PC's actually influenced any of these great goings-on. Instead, the focus is a lot tighter, whether it's trying to survive as a tramp freighter crew or running merc campaigns in several brushfire wars, or just enjoying a subsector's worth of intrigue, I've never GM'd or played a game that occurred on the same scope as the official timeline. Hence, I looked for an opportunity to create a turbulent swirl of political and corporate machinations and I can do all of this without having to conform to canon, since NOBODY is talking about what happened in the Hinterworlds in 1085--all official eyes are on the Marches and the False War.

Try gaming in a client state neighbouring your favorite alien race. Following QLI's approach and setting things much earlier, and in a part of the Imperium that just wasn't drawing any attention, allows you YEARS of gaming possibilites. Sure the OTU has already sketched out the larger story arc, but that leaves all of the details for your players to fill in--and that's where I think the fun is.

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

I have an idea for a history leading up to a post Imperium Spinward Marches (post-virus 500 + years)and it does involve Droyne...or at least what used to be Droyne. One thing I'm wondering is there any sources for old star maps of the Empires and Client States in the Spinward Marches: Aslan, Zhodani, Vargr, Darrian, Sword Worlds, ect.? I would need the entire extent of these empires including ancient sites.

I'd appreciate any links or sources.

Thanks in Advance,
Lord Iron Wolf

 

[trader jim]

I just LOVE this thread!!!!...this is Great Suff!!!...just like Real History....Chaos after TWO great catastrophes!!...gotta "stumble" around and REBUILD!!!....Great opertuniys!!!...exploration, rediscovery, open new shipping lines, expansion, war, excitement!!
All of the GOOD STUFF!!!

This new system has gotta be a success!!!! I have great hops and expectations for it!!! just think all the good things from all systems, that what i am hoping for!!!

more later

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

The Virus is still a crash site with a dead body being hauled from it. All logic points to the fact that it infected more than Imperial Space, it infected the Imperius neighbors as well. I could easily see the Virus destroying the Solomani completely due to their rigid authority and lack of a central control after Virus destruction of communications. If just the Imperium and the Solomani sphere were infected and the rest were immune, then the shattered Imperium would represent a prize too valuable to ignore and every other empire would move in on a pretext to occupy it.

My logic chain shows it infecting The Aslani Heirate, The Sword Worlds, The Vegan Autonomous District, The Darrian Confederation, Vargr Extents, Zhodani Consultant and all their client states. I see the the Virus spreading from the Imperial core outward through the Vargr Extents, hooking around Norris's safe zone, into the Zhodani Consultant and the Spinward Marchs, catching the Sword Worlds and the Darrian Confederation and infecting the Aslan Heirate. With that: Nightfall; Part II.

The one race I could see having a backup immune to the Virus would be the Darrians due to their earlier destruction due to the Star Trigger and the resulting solar flares. I can see them having another backup (fiber optic or something) that cannot be effected by Electro-Magnetic Pulses and thus being something totally alien to the Virus.

The Zhodani I see extinct as a culture. With their psionics they have implanted a trust in their citizens of total competence in infallibility of the ruling class. The Virus would be impossible to control and the ruling class trying to cover while it tries to fix the problem. There would be too many proles who would have doubt for the thought police to clean up. A form of mass hysteria would settle in. Faith in the leaders would evaporate and what happens to disposed Kings, Priests and Living Gods. I envision the former Zhodani Consultant being so anti psionic to make the former Imperium seem like Candyland. Psions would be executed on the spot.

The Aslan Heirates would collapse too. As one family or clan was weakened by the Virus taking away ships and killing its people, it would appear weakened and thus vunerable to another clan. An invasion would be inevitable (carnivore-pouncer stock) and the virus would infect another clan's area. The whole thing would serve as a predator trap (like the La Brea tar pits) and engulf the Heirate that way.

The Sword Worlds would be swept away, their very nature of rigidity and chaos would make them expecially vunerable. Plus their dependance upon other powers to sustain their position as a player in politics.

To sum it up for extrapolation, I see everything in the Spinward Marches collapsing except the Darrians.

Now to add a wild card to this here is some fiction and a counterpoise to Darrian Supremacy--The Evolved Droyne.

The chirpers were what was left of Grandfather's helpers after the Final War. They were genetically engineered to be useful as servants while his children and robots did experiments. Chirpers weren't a natural race (look where their ribs should be and see a geodesic design)and are in the long term unfit to survive. Chirpers are a dying race.

The Droyne were an attempt to improve the Chirpers and improve their chances for survival by casteing them in to more powerful chirpers. It still produces a slowly dying race when it is up against any competition. The Droyne are a casted group of termites or ants. They are still a very limited race without the potential of greatness or the flexibility to adapt to the stars. They are dying, much slower than the Chirpers, but they are dying out. The only ability the Droyne have is to hide in plain view and that isn't a primal fire for an intelligent race.

I see grandfather coming back and seeing the destruction of the Virus and seeing how it has affected the Droyne and their long term survival. Like his children he sees it as a mistake to interfer with the race's basic structure and returns the Droyne to their natural state. They evolve to their natural ancestors: The Eskloi.

Casteing no longer exists but rather a young Eskaloi begins generation at 10 years standard. One die is rolled for each characturistic. When a skill is gained the necessary statistic also goes up a point. This isn't casteing but rather a body and brain adapting to the demands put to it.

During the time of the rise of Darrian Supremacy, the Eskaloi have been exploring and found others of their type and have joined or absorbed each other. The Darrian/Eskaloi Wars have been numerous during the past 250 years with all humans going up to Tech Level 20 being the highest. The Eskaloi are still very powerful psionicly. Humans avoid it as it is an alien trait.

The current era finds the Darrians and the Eskaloi finished with another war and exhausted from it. New empires and leagues are springing up to challenge the old empires with no man's lands and wild areas between each of the pocket empires...

THat's my take on a possible future (500 years) to get past the Virus and its effects.

As always comments are welcome and debate encouraged.

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[eris]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:
The Virus is still a crash site with a dead body being hauled from it. All logic points to the fact that it infected more than Imperial Space, it infected the Imperius neighbors as well. I could easily see the Virus destroying the Solomani completely due to their rigid authority and lack of a central control after Virus destruction of communications. If just the Imperium and the Solomani sphere were infected and the rest were immune, then the shattered Imperium would represent a prize too valuable to ignore and every other empire would move in on a pretext to occupy it.

My logic chain shows it infecting The Aslani Heirate, The Sword Worlds, The Vegan Autonomous District, The Darrian Confederation, Vargr Extents, Zhodani Consultant and all their client states. I see the the Virus spreading from the Imperial core outward through the Vargr Extents, hooking around Norris's safe zone, into the Zhodani Consultant and the Spinward Marchs, catching the Sword Worlds and the Darrian Confederation and infecting the Aslan Heirate. With that: Nightfall; Part II.

<big snip>

The current era finds the Darrians and the Eskaloi finished with another war and exhausted from it. New empires and leagues are springing up to challenge the old empires with no man's lands and wild areas between each of the pocket empires...

THat's my take on a possible future (500 years) to get past the Virus and its effects.

As always comments are welcome and debate encouraged.

Lord Iron Wolf

Well, I moved my game ahead about 7,000 years, and *no one* was immune to the collapse, but otherwise that's about what I did with my Quental Main/Akus games.

There are myths about an ancient Imperium, a war where the machines rose up against biologicals, where dreams became real and nightmares walked the planets. But those are just myths and legends and practical men are more interested in the present and the future. Now that mankind is again learning how to travel between the stars there are places to explore, much to learn, and profits to be made!

Seriously, I don't even admit that the now of my Akus game is related to the past of Traveller. Maybe it isn't, maybe it is, I'm not telling. <g>

I started with CT before there was an Imperium or any official background at all. I built my own, and there has never been any reason why a Ref couldn't take as little, or none, of the offical background and make their own game.


Eris

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Hi Eris,

I know what you mean about creating your own game. After Mega (mistake) Traveller, I created my own SF game called: Embers of Empire and had it down at Gen Con to demo in 91-? It's a funny coincidence that Traveller: The New Error came out with the same central premise of a computer virus destroying civilized space and people coming back to space to claim what was once their's.

I had a booth at Gen Con 92 with too much enthusiam and not enough knowledge of how to produce a salable game. I've learned a lot since then. I'm still rather proud of EoE and the base 10 system it's built upon. One day I may return to it and finish the game. The thing I had for sale was pathetic with the character generation and combat systems fleshed out and the poor referee was on his own

Right now, I'm working on a game of planetary romance that can emulate John Carter of Mars style games. I'm almost done with the player and referee section and on to expanding the background and providing artwork for it before publication.

A couple of rounds of playtesting and I should have it.

Best of Luck with your campaign,
Lord Iron Wolf

 

[TWILIGHT]

am i one of the rare individuals who loves the rebellion/virus era over all others? (save 2300AD) I thought it was fantastic a desperate backdrop to realistic adventure. Watching your players aspirations drop along with civilization is great! PC's buying ships weapons one month, trying desperately to buy food the next...great stuff!

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by TWILIGHT:
am i one of the rare individuals who loves the rebellion/virus era over all others? (save 2300AD) I thought it was fantastic a desperate backdrop to realistic adventure. Watching your players aspirations drop along with civilization is great! PC's buying ships weapons one month, trying desperately to buy food the next...great stuff!

I really like the TNE setting. In CT, the universe is just too damn big for PCs to make any kind of difference - they just get lost in the crowd. In TNE, they're a LOT more important individually because the setting is on a much smaller scale.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TWILIGHT:
am i one of the rare individuals who loves the rebellion/virus era over all others? (save 2300AD) I thought it was fantastic a desperate backdrop to realistic adventure. Watching your players aspirations drop along with civilization is great! PC's buying ships weapons one month, trying desperately to buy food the next...great stuff!

I really like the TNE setting. In CT, the universe is just too damn big for PCs to make any kind of difference - they just get lost in the crowd. In TNE, they're a LOT more important individually because the setting is on a much smaller scale. </font>[/QUOTE]Taken on its own, I have no problem with the TNE setting. It is a setting about making new beginnings from the ruins of a great past.

Which would be fine, except for one thing: I know the ruins. The entire efforts of many, many people were just thrown on the trash as if none of it ever mattered. (Which, apparently, to some it didn't.)

At least with the Rebellion, the past that had been constructed was still carried forward. Everything that had been written about the in-game history of Traveller still had an effect on what was done, and what could be done, even after the fall of the Imperium.

But with TNE, there was no link to the past. It was all wiped out. All the effort and all the story that had been produced prior to Virus became totally irrelevant. Even the very "physics" of the game were thrown out the window. (Personally, I think that GT starship construction is closer to CT/MT than FF&S starship construction.)

Then, just to put salt in the wound, the little carrot left over, the Regency, ended up being a total perversion of anything that had gone before. "Keepers of the Flame" my ass. The Regency was a Zhodani Consolate Lite, not the honorable remnant of the Imperium.

In summary, starting with a clean slate is great. Unless you actually liked what was on the slate before someone wiped it clean for you.