Why pay more for less (from What you like about MGT)

[Whipsnade]

Yeah me too. I, for one, am amazed at the intellectual gymnastics some folks will resort to to excuse a really mediocre product.

And that, gentlemen, is provides a neat coda to our thread.

Yes, we get it, MgT is new and shiny. And, yes, we understand that you could find MgT products more easily than the many superior pdfs and deadtrees that have been available at FFE for nearly a decade. However, all of that doesn't obviate the fact that you're purchasing a rather mediocre product that's also playing merry hell with the setting.

MgT is the merely latest flavor of the month and it's attractiveness will fade. When GT first came out, I saw many people singing it's praises too. Over time, most abandoned the GURPS RPG system while keeping GT's many crunchy bits.

While few use still GURPS for the game, SJGames did produce the best sysgen, trade system, and historical setting as yet for Traveller. Given the products they've so far published for Traveller, does anyone seriously believe Mongoose can or will produce anything of similar quality and utility?

Like Ty, I've many games and publications lining my bookshelves and again, like Ty, I've bought my last MgT publication.

YM may and should V.


Regards,
Bill

 

[tbeard1999]

[/b]

And that, gentlemen, is provides a neat coda to our thread.

Yes, we get it, MgT is new and shiny. And, yes, we understand that you could find MgT products more easily than the many superior pdfs and deadtrees that have been available at FFE for nearly a decade. However, all of that doesn't obviate the fact that you're playing a rather mediocre product that's also playing merry hell with the setting.

MgT is the merely latest flavor of the month and it's attractiveness will fade. When GT first came out, I saw many people singing it's praises too. Over time, most abandoned the GURPS RPG system while keeping GT's many crunchy bits.

While few use still GURPS for the game, SJGames did produce the best sysgen, trade system, and historical setting as yet for Traveller. Given the products they've so far published for Traveller, does anyone seriously believe Mongoose can or will produce anything of similar quality and utility?

Perhaps the most devastating critique of all. Because the answer is *clearly* "not a chance".

And can you actually compare the insight, technical excellence and thoughtfulness that went into, say, LBB4 Mercenary with its MGT "Laz Guns for Hire" counterpart? Or the elegant design and combat systems of LBB5 with its tedious MGT counterpart?

 

[GypsyComet]

I, for one, am amazed at the intellectual gymnastics some folks will resort to to excuse a really mediocre product.

As an example, your "defense" of MGT's inclusion of absurdtech makes Mongoose dishonest in its advertising...

You assign a certain meaning to "fidelity", assuming that word is even used in Mongoose's ads. You also assign a great deal of importance to one phrase, when there are other phrases in said advertising that reveal your statement as absurdly focused, in the hopes that your word will be taken as more "true" than your opponents words.

Intellectual gymnastics, indeed.

But between you, and S4, and now Whipsnade, the "anti" MGT side can and will type more invective than the "pro" side chooses to. So you "win". Doesn't mean you're right. And unlike a courtroom, there is no Judge here to give one side or the other "the last word", so this nonsense will never stop.

 

[tbeard1999]

You assign a certain meaning to "fidelity", assuming that word is even used in Mongoose's ads. You also assign a great deal of importance to one phrase, when there are other phrases in said advertising that reveal your statement as absurdly focused, in the hopes that your word will be taken as more "true" than your opponents words.

This sentence appears to make no particular sense.

In any case, it doesn't seem to me to address the points I made.

But between you, and S4, and Whipsnade, the "anti" MGT side can and will type more invective than the "pro" side chooses to.

Oh, I think you sell your side short...

So you "win". Doesn't mean you're right. And unlike a courtroom, there is no Judge here to give one side or the other "the last word", so this nonsense will never stop.

Well, that's a relief. I mean, I was just commenting to my wife how much this forum resembled a courtroom...

 

[Supplement Four]

But between you, and S4, and now Whipsnade, the "anti" MGT side can and will type more invective than the "pro" side chooses to. So you "win". Doesn't mean you're right. And unlike a courtroom, there is no Judge here to give one side or the other "the last word", so this nonsense will never stop.

It's not "nonsense". It's unhappiness with the way our beloved Traveller is being treated.

I'm not dead-set against Mongoose, as I've said many times. I'm playing their Conan rpg right now. It's great stuff.

When Mongoose starts turning out great Traveller stuff (if they do), you'll see me change my tune.

I just want them to "do better".

Several months ago, just after MGT launched, TBeard said that, after the initial newness wears off, people will see MGT for what it is.

I think that actually starting to happen. TBeard is correct.

Mongoose needs to get their act together as far as Traveller is concerned. I remember being thrilled when I saw a new DGP Traveller item hit the game store shelves. I bought DGP stuff just because it was DGP.

I want to be that excited about Mongoose Traveller. I'm not.

I demand GREATNESS, not just another version.

Oh, I think you sell your side short...

Absolutely he does. Just ask Allensh.

 

[beowulf2044]

Just as a historical note, that 'elegant' LBB 5 was so rife with errors when it was first published that GDW printed errata in the JTAS (that one still had to pay for) and then published a revised version soon after.

 

[aramis]

And that second edition, Beowulf, has stood 25 years and some... and is the core basis for T20's system, as well as MT, and even TNE (albeit with many funky diversions in weaponry and combat) and T4. It's the core for Power Projection: Fleet's designs as well.

1st ed HG was said by many to be crap. 2nd ed HG was a major overhaul, in order to make it the kind of "Wow!" the player base expected. (That said, I still want a 1E HG PDF, if only to see what I missed!)

 

[far-trader]

Not so much errors, and not so rife, as I see it. But I'll grant it was flawed by their own admission. One of the "flaws" was no accounting of power usage for weapons and such, and they fixed that (I'm not 100% sold that needed fixing, but it does make for more interesting design trade-offs).

But I've always seen it more as a different design/game tack than broken*. Less elegant in ways perhaps, but more complete in others. Some of the ideas in the first should have been incorporated in the second imo. I suspect an attempt to maintain the same page count meant leaving some of the good out in the process.

Let me know when Mongoose High Guard hits 100,000+ sales ok

* I think one can use HG1 designs in the same universe as HG2 designs without too much hand wringing, calling it a different design paradigm. HG1 and HG2 are more compatible than HG2 and LBB2 are, by far.

 

[captainjack]

Since you used "they", I assumed it was a group assessment:

Well, obviously, because they weren't interested in getting an answer for anything other than arguing points. The technique in debate is called "A stalking horse".

But if you intended it to be a comment on a single poster, I'll accept that clarification and withdraw my point.

Ah. Yes, I did use it ambiguously -I was aiming at one post, not a group. Thanks for accepting the clarification.

Okay, I'm done. Who's buying the next round ?

 

[Britti_Lover]

:smirk:

I've said this more times than I care too:

1) I really like Mongoose Traveller, it has sold very well and has lots of additional material to make the game easy and fun to play.

2) I asked a group of Traveller players which rules they liked the best for playing Traveller and they said Mongoose Traveller.

3) Like any good set of rules, Mongoose Traveller is supposed to have a 10 year run before something new comes along - plenty of time to get your money's worth from this fabulous product.

4) Finally, I actually like the inclusion of Babylon 5 and other backgrounds for use with Traveller. Its about time this happened.

 

[GypsyComet]

It's not "nonsense". It's unhappiness with the way our beloved Traveller is being treated.


...


I demand GREATNESS, not just another version.

Pshht. D&D isn't getting "greatness" and they're spending a LOT more money.

As for the "nonsense"... I knew someone would get that wrong. The "nonsense" is not your *goal*. "Better Traveller" is a good goal.

The "nonsense" is the method, and the results, and the approbation being flung around in all directions by both sides. This entire thread, start to finish, is "the nonsense". It gets nothing done, advances no agenda, and succeeds in doing nothing but entrenching the sides in more hatred. Erasing it will do no good with regards to that last point, either.

The "anti" crowd, who say they are really "the loyal opposition", continue to pounce on anyone with a positive opinion of Mongoose Traveller and badger them repeatedly and continuously, often to the point of leaving this board. Regardless of real or imagined motives, the effect is negative. NOT POSITIVE.

Some ill-conceived crusade to drive people away from Mongoose's Traveller with "discussions" like THIS THREAD is not going to result in a better Traveller. If you got your wish and the Mongoose license got yanked or surrendered, the results would NOT be a better Traveller, but WOULD be the unplayable mess that is T5, a bunch of half-assed reprints that only the old guard buy, and the continuing perception that Traveller is a TOXIC PROPERTY that fails because of its own "fans".

Look around the industry. There is no one else to pick up this ball and run with it. Traveller without Mongoose is not "better"; its DEAD.

To borrow one of the net's recent memes: "You're Doing It Wrong."

Am I saying "leave Mongoose alone"? NO.

Am I saying "Stop treating the people who write for, play, and like Mongoose Traveller as if they were subhumans and magpies"? Yes, please. We're aware of the pricetag, and we're aware of the warts, for the most part, and we players work around them. Its something you've been doing sub-consciously with CT/MT for decades now. Just ask S4. He knows.

(Assuming you are actually playing, that is. That's a different rant, though.)

Before any of you vehemently deny doing this -- because you will -- consider the possibility, however unlikely in your mind, that the multiple complaints leveled against you with the powers of this board (and others) over the past year or more might actually have merit. Consider what your posts read like for the target of your dudgeon, high or otherwise.

So you're unhappy. Guess what? You're sharing your unhappiness with the wrong people, and you have already annoyed the right people to the point of ignoring you. Which just makes you more unhappy. A vicious circle, and one the fans of Mongoose Traveller cannot help you with.

And that, gentlemen, provides a neat coda to our thread.

You once expressed surprise and curiosity over my claims on the TML that the edition wars over TNE had permanently damaged The Traveller Community, with scars still quite visible a decade (and now two decades) later. Deep divisions between fans and players of different editions. Talents lost to the entire game. Large groups simply vanishing from the known venues, taking all of their input and insight with them. Names branded for ridicule. Unconcealed hatred.

Welcome to the sequel. It's happening again. Different, but the same, like most sequels.

Good Night.

 

[MongooseFordy]

You're sharing your unhappiness with the wrong people, and you have already annoyed the right people to the point of ignoring you.

Annoyed?

Possibly, who wouldn't be after all this vitriol.

Ignoring?

No, we're not.

Normally we might ignore just a handful of people, a vocal minority, who slam our products for the sake of their own agenda. However, many of the points made on this thread are pertinent - and by that I mean points on both sides. Obviously a lot of the points are pure nonsense, such as the aspertion that Mongoose presides over the OTU like some evil clandestine cabal, waiting to ruin it in any and all ways, and that we have a deep seated hatred of sci-fi

We all know there are problems with the early releases - problems we have since tried our best to put right. But let's remember there has been no RPG product in the past 30 years that hasn't had errors or needed an errata, and I'm confident there will be a marked improvement in future products as concerns quality.

Will we satisfy everyone? No. Can we guarantee to completely eradicate all errors from future books? No, no publisher can guarantee that. Will we drag ourselves over the coals for it? No, we'll just try and do our best, like we already are.

Shall we possibly try and move on now. And let's try and remember, Traveller is a game - enjoy it for god's sake.

 

[mbrinkhues]

For me the reason to throw out the game wasn't so much the physical production quality (That is printing/layout/proofreading). As you say errors happen and errata is a fact even in well tested and old systems.

What made me abandon and reject Mgt is:

+ Each book drifts further away from the OTU and it's limits. The Psionic-preview was the final straw for me with it's extreme powers that are once more not marked "non OTU"

+ The lack of even minor efforts to mark technology as "OTU" vs. "Our try at a universal system". All other systems have managed that with litte problems (see FFS, GT) and all it takes is a little symbol

+ The continued Mantra that "Traveller was planned as a universal system". It was a "settingless" system for the first two years but even then the technology was "OTU" with no alternate techs. And since 1979 (Supplement 3) the 3I and the neighbours are defined. All publications for the next 25+ years have been OTU or (GT) very close

+ The lack of detail in equipment (Weights/Size hints) and tech-system (Power consumption in HG)

+ The IMHO lack of balance/realism/research in parts of the system (Mercenary is the worst here)

+ The rather bad art. There are worse RPG's but few (Cyberpunk 3 comes to mind)

+ Some books feeling hollow either by (IMHO) wasting page after page on semi-useful deckplans (HG, Fighting Ships(1)) or by including stuff in a base book (Scouts) that would be better of in an adventure (The station)





(1) "Adventure class" deckplans are great. But plans for Dreadnaughts etc. are so rarely used they are better of in a PDF product. Giving us a few more interesting (<= 5000dton) ships instead would have made it a supplement worth buying if only to GT/MT the ships

 

[tbeard1999]

Just as a historical note, that 'elegant' LBB 5 was so rife with errors when it was first published that GDW printed errata in the JTAS (that one still had to pay for) and then published a revised version soon after.

Errata in an RPG? How shocking.

In any case, I found LBB v1 to be perfectly playable, although more abstract than its replacement. (The character generation system did not change).

And LBB5v2 is better than *anything* produced by Mongoose IMHO.

 

[tbeard1999]

And that second edition, Beowulf, has stood 25 years and some... and is the core basis for T20's system, as well as MT, and even TNE (albeit with many funky diversions in weaponry and combat) and T4. It's the core for Power Projection: Fleet's designs as well.

1st ed HG was said by many to be crap. 2nd ed HG was a major overhaul, in order to make it the kind of "Wow!" the player base expected. (That said, I still want a 1E HG PDF, if only to see what I missed!)

You can get most of the flavor of HG1E by eliminating batteries. Each ship totalled the number of weapons of a given type and that gave it its final rating. Much more abstract and less flexible (though faster playing).

 

[MongooseMatt]

+ Each book drifts further away from the OTU and it's limits. The Psionic-preview was the final straw for me with it's extreme powers that are once more not marked "non OTU"

Then just stick to the OTU books, easily identified by their covers - Aslan is just about to go to print. See what you think of those (I have a feeling you will like Aslan ).

However, it _does_ strike me as a little disingenuous when OTU veterans (not necessarily yourself!) complain about things not being marked as OTU when they, of all people, should know the difference and make their own selections. Which brings us on to. . .

+ The lack of even minor efforts to mark technology as "OTU" vs. "Our try at a universal system". All other systems have managed that with litte problems (see FFS, GT) and all it takes is a little symbol

Okay, let's take an issue that was raised on these forums - the MagRifle Rifle (Shurikat), a clearly non-OTU weapon.

Umm, why call it non-OTU? Sure, it has not appeared before and sure, you may not find them handed out as standard issue by the planetary marines but, honestly, is there not somewhere they could appear?

There does seem a reluctance (and veterans can be just as guilty of this as newbies) to grasp just how HUGE the OTU is. The amount of planets, peoples, and _space_ shown in just the Marches is mind-boggling. And it is said that nowhere in this massive expanse of space and time is there room for a MagRail Rifle?

Sorry, don't buy that, not for a minute.

The whole point of the core 'black' books is for you to pick and choose what you want from your campaign, not to straitjacket the OTU. In effect, as soon as you take the OTU home, it becomes a Your-TU. Different people will make different choices about what they want to see in it. You may choose to ban the MagRail Rifle completely - and that is cool. Someone else may choose to completely arm a roving mercenary band with them, perhaps a gift from an old employer - and that is no less cool than your choice!

Someone may even want, in HTU, a wackly time traveller with a scarf and a blue box. Are you seriously going to tell him that he can't?

Ultimately, the black core books are toolkits, which players can dip in and out of as they see fot for their campaigns. It is right and proper that each book, each toolkit, has items you would never let into your current campaign. That is as it should be. On the other hand, it is also possible that you may find exactly the right campaign for those items next year, and that someone else is using them right now.

We said right at the start that there would be a disconnect from Traveller and the OTU, and the core books are part of that.

Take them as toolkits from which you can switch and select as you see fit and, I hope, their purpose will become much clearer.

+ The continued Mantra that "Traveller was planned as a universal system". It was a "settingless" system for the first two years but even then the technology was "OTU" with no alternate techs. And since 1979 (Supplement 3) the 3I and the neighbours are defined. All publications for the next 25+ years have been OTU or (GT) very close

Well, all we can really agree to here is to wait for the heavyweight settings that are coming for Traveller - starting with Hammers Slammers, and closely followed by Dredd. Let's discuss them then.

+ The lack of detail in equipment (Weights/Size hints) and tech-system (Power consumption in HG)

+ The IMHO lack of balance/realism/research in parts of the system (Mercenary is the worst here)

+ The rather bad art. There are worse RPG's but few (Cyberpunk 3 comes to mind)

To be fair, these are all very subjective, surely?

+ Some books feeling hollow either by (IMHO) wasting page after page on semi-useful deckplans (HG, Fighting Ships(1)) or by including stuff in a base book (Scouts) that would be better of in an adventure (The station)

I made some comments about this on a recent Planet Mongoose post myself.

In short, we won't be doing any more massive ships as deck plans after Warships of Babylon 5 - they do indeed have limited utility. However, I _am_ glad that we have done at least one truly huge ship, because it at least gives you an idea of the layout that can be applied to others. On Planet Mongoose, I quoted a Star Wars game I ran where players were infiltrating a Droid Control Ship and the cutaway diagrams (hardly deck plans) from DK were a superb resource, just for giving me an idea of what should go where as the players roamed.

The Dreadnought was presented for a similar reason, but we won't be doing any more over-sized vessels unless they appear in box set format and we can have some massive pieces of paper devoted to them.

(You see, the one thing the nay-sayers on this forum tend to miss is the idea that, as human beings, we have a natural ability to try something, find it doesn't work so well, and then try something different - just like any other area of life, really!)

 

[MongooseMatt]

And LBB5v2 is better than *anything* produced by Mongoose IMHO.

And yet you devote more forum time to us than anything else

 

[tbeard1999]

Obviously a lot of the points are pure nonsense, such as the aspertion that Mongoose presides over the OTU like some evil clandestine cabal, waiting to ruin it in any and all ways, and that we have a deep seated hatred of sci-fi

You are actually being accused of incompetence and negligence, not malice.

We all know there are problems with the early releases - problems we have since tried our best to put right. But let's remember there has been no RPG product in the past 30 years that hasn't had errors or needed an errata, and I'm confident there will be a marked improvement in future products as concerns quality.

No one is complaining about errata, so this is a straw man. As you say, every game has errata and most sentient beings here understand that. I, for one, have openly applauded Mongoose for swiftly correcting errors in the core book deckplans, for example.

What we *are* complaining about are things like amateurish writing (do I really need to post more samples from Mercenary?), horrible editing, dubious mechanics and serious (and often silly) unmarked deviations from Traveller canon. Oh, and ridiculous tech assumptions. And of course, plagiarism from Warhammer 40K.

Will we satisfy everyone? No. Can we guarantee to completely eradicate all errors from future books? No, no publisher can guarantee that. Will we drag ourselves over the coals for it? No, we'll just try and do our best, like we already are.

Again, you are seriously misrepresenting the core arguments of MGT critics.

 

[tbeard1999]

And yet you devote more forum time to us than anything else

Eh, I'm bored.

Of course, I actually *don't* devote that much time to MGT overall, but it's nothing personal. In reality, I'm a systems wonk, so I like chewing the fat over a game system.

I should add that if MGT's worst offense was that it failed to equal LBB5v2, we wouldn't be having this conversation -- it isn't reasonable to compare MGT to what was arguably CT's finest supplement. I was merely making a point to a particular poster.

 

[Supplement Four]

The "nonsense" is the method, and the results, and the approbation being flung around in all directions by both sides. This entire thread, start to finish, is "the nonsense". It gets nothing done, advances no agenda, and succeeds in doing nothing but entrenching the sides in more hatred.

Maybe. But, then again, maybe not.

Mongoose Matt is reading this thread. I'm sure he'd rather have people screaming about how GREAT MGT is rather than bitching about how poor it is.

More people are starting to turn away from MGT. I think Matt sees that. Matt's a smart guy. Maybe he'll have a staff meeting and say, "OK guys, we've got to get our act together and clean up Mongoose Traveller. Maybe we'll pick up some more customers. First, let's start with a program to make sure our books are edited well. Next, let's focus on content and start putting out some dynamite material...."

Could happen.

Hope it will happen.

We'll see.

Some ill-conceived crusade to drive people away from Mongoose's Traveller with "discussions" like THIS THREAD is not going to result in a better Traveller.

It's not a crusade. There's no agenda. There's no secret handshake. There's no conspiracy. It's just people with opinions about Mongoose Traveller, and that opinion happens to be negative.

Mongoose can turn that around. They're not a bad company. They've turned out some other stellar games.

They're just not treating Traveller well.

If you got your wish and the Mongoose license got yanked or surrendered, the results would NOT be a better Traveller, but WOULD be the unplayable mess that is T5, a bunch of half-assed reprints that only the old guard buy, and the continuing perception that Traveller is a TOXIC PROPERTY that fails because of its own "fans".

Look around the industry. There is no one else to pick up this ball and run with it. Traveller without Mongoose is not "better"; its DEAD.

So, basically, what you're saying is: Let's all settle for less. Mongoose ain't great, but, heck, it's better than nothing.

Sorry, I'd rather stick with CT. There's no reason to support MGT when CT does what they're trying to do better.

(Assuming you are actually playing, that is. That's a different rant, though.)

Both myself and Ty are active gamers with groups we play with.

Believe it or not, I'm actually playing a Mongoose game right now. And, it's brilliant. It's an example of just how well Mongoose can do when their heart is in the right place.

I'm talking about their Conan RPG.

So you're unhappy. Guess what? You're sharing your unhappiness with the wrong people, and you have already annoyed the right people to the point of ignoring you.

Matt sure likes to single me out in a discussion when he replies...not sure if that counts as being ignored...

You once expressed surprise and curiosity over my claims on the TML that the edition wars over TNE had permanently damaged The Traveller Community, with scars still quite visible a decade (and now two decades) later. Deep divisions between fans and players of different editions. Talents lost to the entire game. Large groups simply vanishing from the known venues, taking all of their input and insight with them. Names branded for ridicule. Unconcealed hatred.

Welcome to the sequel. It's happening again. Different, but the same, like most sequels.

Hmmm...even I wouldn't say that MGT is as bad as TNE. Sure, TNE has its fans, but it's a very, very small percentage of the Traveller base as time as gone by.

I suspect that MGT will eventually take its place next to TNE, and T4, though, as some of the least played Traveller versions in the years to come.

Unless Mongoose does something to change it, that's they way they're headed.

And, CT and MT will remain, as they always have, the two top choices for the majority of Traveller players out there.




I, for one, am pulling for Mongoose to change its direction, start making some better decisions with regards to Traveller, and make me wrong.

But, it should tell you something when a die-hard Traveller player, such as myself, gets all excited over the release of the Gamelords/FASA CD...and would only take a MGT release if someone gave it to him.