Why not multiclass?

[Borodin]

I've been putting together some characters, both PCs and NPCs, for use in an upcoming campaign and started wondering. What motivation is there NOT to multiclass? Why would you ever take a class more than level 2?

Most of the time, levels 1 and 2 get a bonus feat, and there are classes you can take to get most any skill set you are looking for. Sure, several of the classes saves and BAB don't start going up til 3rd or 4th level in that class, but it seems to me that skills/feats are more important than saves/BAB most of the time.

The example that really got me wondering was the ship's engineer NPC I was writing up. He started life as a belter (mostly to pick up 0G/LoG adaptation free and get a chance to get 3D Awareness), but after a term joined the Navy (for access to Damage Control). After getting a couple levels in Navy, it occurred to me that he could then take a couple levels in Traveller and be able to get the other feat he needed (think it was Jury Rig) at character level 5, rather than waiting to get his next Navy bonus feat at CL 7. Of course, after his 6th level I went ahead and started adding more than 2 levels for Traveller class, mostly because it just seemed wrong to pick up a 4th class. But he could have easily picked up some Professional or Merchant levels and gotten a couple more free feats. I easily came up with rationale for each class he took, and didn't even have any problem flowing with his career changes.

What I want to know, then, is what motivation could there have really been for him to end generation as a Belter 3/Navy 4 rather than the Belter 2/Navy 2/Traveller 3 he became? There are a couple of class specific feats that get a bonus for having more than 5 levels in that class (Merchant Avoid Trouble or something like that, think there is a Belter one too? Or was it Rogue?) but is that it?

And on an unrelated note, why do Rogues get only 4 skill points/level? Seems like they would want to trade off some of their BAB for an extra skillpoint at least. But then, they can just multiclass into Traveller or Merchant or something to get some extra skillpoints, and focus their Rogue skill points on 'roguish' skills.

Ok, that got a bit long winded, sorry. Just really curious what some of the rest of you think about this.

 

[Shadowdancer]

I agree with you, but I guess it ultimately depends on the type of character you want to play. I like playing characters with a wide variety of skills, so they can be useful in lots of situations. But if you wanted to be a combat monster, diversification is not the route to go.

In our current campaign, all of the PCs are multiclassed. One even has levels in five different classes: Professional, Merchant, Rogue, Traveller and Scout. Most importantly, the character's backstory ties it all together very nicely.

For players seeking a character with good, core spaceship skills, a term of Belter at the start is an excellent way to go. Plus you get to start at age 14, so you can have a high-level character who is still relatively young. Then you can branch out into other careers to get some combat and/or people oriented skills.

But for someone who wants a character who wants to do a few thing very well, you'd be better off staying in a single class, or two max.

 

[Rover]

On a purely game mechanics level there is no real reason not to multiclass. As a matter of fact I think it's encouraged.

There is no real reason why a PC sould not start out as a belter (or maybe a barbarian) age 14 and get an extra term out of the deal.

The real reason not to multiclass whould be in terms of character. The PC I'm playing now is a 7 term marine. That's the kind of PC I wanted to play, a career military man. (the +9 BAB is nice to have too)

 

[sea_tyger]

Personally, as a GM, I require the players to have a good background concept before they start making their characters. And, if they have a reasonable explanation for the character to bounce around from job-to-job, I would probably allow diverse multiclassing. (Of course, I'm always happy for the PCs to sacrifice their combat skills....makes the fight last that much longer. )

However, if the character is a blatant attempt at munchkinism, then the Hammer of the GM will fall and crush him. Thankfully, though, I have good players in my group.

 

[aravain]

Sea Tyger is right on target; sure, you can min/max all you want, but I hope that most of the people here have grown past that and try to create multi-faceted characters. While the rules allow for a person to jump between occupations on a relatively frequent time frame, a reasonable background lends itself much more for role-playing and future developement of both the character and the party interaction. While our GM allows for a rather liberal background formation, she also puts the GM hammer down if it looks like a person is building a character only with the intention of maxing out his/her stats. Perhaps a newbie's first character is allowed some leeway, but, as we all know, it is rare for a beginner to really find the loopholes or creases in a gaming system the first time. Those players who refuse to build their starting characters to the max and with their warts and all earn the rest of the experienced players' respect. But what the hey; the game is for you and your group's entertainment so...........multi-multi-class your way to success. Each player and their group has a style all their own. If your group wants to do it that way, then go for it.

Now if you will excuse me, I'm off for my character's dancing lessions!

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aravain:
Sea Tyger is right on target; sure, you can min/max all you want, but I hope that most of the people here have grown past that and try to create multi-faceted characters.

Some of the most interesting and multi-faceted characters I've designed started out as min/max attempts (I don't really see anything odious in a little min/maxing as long as you keep it out of the game itself). The effort to come up with an explanation for the strange juxtapositions min/maxing often requires frequently makes for interesting backgrounds. Or so I've found.


Hans

 

[endwarde]

While most of my players have multiclassed to some extent, I did have one player recently make a backup character which showed me a good reason why you might want to stick to one class.

He had his eyes glaze over when he saw the writeup for the Merc Cruiser, the one you could get in mustering out as a Merc. Well, the only way you are going to be able to get that kind of ship would be to stay in service long enough to become an officer, and then an officer of the highest Merc rank. Only then are you able to get the +1 on the Material Benefits chart so you could possibly get the Merc Cruiser.

As it worked out, he was unable to get all the rank he needed and he ended up with no Merc Cruiser after all.. Oh well, the payments would have been heinous anyhow.

I would imagine that other classes, especially with rank, might have a similar reason to stay in them solely as well.

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by Eric Anderson:
I would imagine that other classes, especially with rank, might have a similar reason to stay in them solely as well.

I think you missed something here. Rank is tied to the prior history career, but not to a specific class. You can multi-class without changing careers. You can have someone in the Navy prior history taking levels in the Navy, Professional, and Traveller classes as long as they meet the prereqs for each class.

 

[Vanguard]

The fact that T20 removes D&D's rules restricting or penalizing multiclassing proves to me that T20 is indeed trying to encourage it (Indeed, putting the restrictions back would be a quick way to rectify the situation if you're unhappy with your current multiclass-happy characters...however you'd have to arrange for their ship to conviently fall into a star so they can all make new characters

).

The class design that awards bonus feat picks instead of a straight ability progression also removes some incentive to be a single-classed character.

However, there are a few mechanical reasons to stick with one class:

Base Attack will usually suffer unless you're multiclassing between barbarian, marine, merc, and big game hunter. Multiclassing can help BAB in cases where taking another level in your current class would not improve your base attack (but only if you take one of the combat classes listed above). Contrary to what was mentioned above, multiclassing can often result in better saves depending on the classes in question.

There are a few skills which are class skills for only a few classes (most of the "athletic" skills are class skills for the Barbarian only). So if you ever want to be good at those skills, it's much easier to stick with the class which recieve those skills.

If a character wanted most of the bonus feats from a class, that character would be stuck with that class for a long time (In most cases).


This is all completely ignoring any RP or story reasons for single/multiclassing.

 

[Ellros]

Well for T20, some classes need a high class level for the abilities. IE Traveller class and Well-Connected feat. IMTU, we've found it's not a big help unless the party is on a high-Pop planet, since the base DC is 30, and the only mod is the Traveller class level (which is this party is only 4).

 

[Borodin]

Originally posted by Eric Anderson:
While most of my players have multiclassed to some extent, I did have one player recently make a backup character which showed me a good reason why you might want to stick to one class.

He had his eyes glaze over when he saw the writeup for the Merc Cruiser, the one you could get in mustering out as a Merc. Well, the only way you are going to be able to get that kind of ship would be to stay in service long enough to become an officer, and then an officer of the highest Merc rank. Only then are you able to get the +1 on the Material Benefits chart so you could possibly get the Merc Cruiser.

As was already pointed out, the mustering out benefits are not directly tied to the class, except that you have to take 1 level of the class to get into the prior history career. But even sticking to a career for the ship is not necessary for some of them. The traveller and belter can get a ship with a mustering out roll of 6.

Yes, some of the classes do have feats that improve (slightly) with high levels in that class, but most don't, and I really don't know how useful most of those feats would be anyway.

I guess my major beef with it is that most of the time you're better off just taking two levels in 4 different classes rather than taking 8 in 1 class or even 4 levels in two classes. Maybe if the 2nd bonus feat for classes came at level 3 instead of 2 would help?

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Borodin:

I guess my major beef with it is that most of the time you're better off just taking two levels in 4 different classes rather than taking 8 in 1 class or even 4 levels in two classes. Maybe if the 2nd bonus feat for classes came at level 3 instead of 2 would help?

No matter what BAB you have, No matter how much feats you have, how much skills you have...

It takes just one bullets to end it all.

That's why you really shouldn't care about nitpicking multiclassing/feats/BAB etc... Traveller is about an ADVENTURE, not about "Entering a room, killing the monster, finding the treasure and going up a level"

As long as the characters are logically developped (no Navy2/Marines2/Army2/Scout2 "just for fun") and the players build a good background with all those prior history rolls, then it should be OK.

If one persists into munchkinin' then use your S'Preem Weapon: You're the GM, find a flaw you can exploit in his character. If he's a GOD with weapons, put him in a situation where killing/injuring someone deepens the trouble (Geez, fireing at the diplomatic aid wasn't a *BRIGHT* idea!). If he's a Wiz with all these skills, don't worry. EVERY technical/Knowledge skills rely on EDU, so find some alien device/writing/FOO he doesn't have the right skill for. He's got too many feats? Trip him

Just knowing that this particular greying security guard *MIGHT* be a retired marines platoon captain with fighting experience will discourage many munchkins

They play "Average special characters" as in above Mister Everybody, but not GODS or Heroes like in D&D.

 

[justacaveman]

Remember that class skills are limited to the class level + 3, and non-class skills are limited to 1/2 that (rounded down).

If you want to be really good at a specific skill, it needs to be a class skill, and you need a high level in that class.

Generalists are good PC's, but they're never as good as a Specialist. What if you really need an amazing computer hacker, do you think a Generalist will cut it? How about a Fighter Pilot, do you want to be number 2 in piloting skills?

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by LordRhys:
Remember that class skills are limited to the class level + 3, and non-class skills are limited to 1/2 that (rounded down).

If you want to be really good at a specific skill, it needs to be a class skill, and you need a high level in that class.

All that time I was thinking it was about Character level and not Class level. I'll really need the Player's Handbook when it comes out I don't want to lug Modern just for *THAT* part.

Anyway, If a particular skill is available in more than one class that the character have, adding up the class would reflect the fact that it has continued to learn the skill.

Else, a Navy pilot goin in Professional after mustering out of the military (say Navy 3 Professional 3) would be ridiculous if not allowed continued improvement of the Piloting skill.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by LordRhys:
Remember that class skills are limited to the class level + 3, and non-class skills are limited to 1/2 that (rounded down).

No, class skills are limited to character level+3, non-class skills to half that.


Hans

 

[Vargr Merc]

I thought that there were restrictions built into the core rules for multiclassing. I'm going from memory here since I have neither my THB or my PH handy, but, under the multiclassing rules in the PH I seem to recall that each race has a "race related class." For example, a human can have any class as their chosen profession (for elves, I believe it is magic-users). If they add a second class, there is no real restriction or limitation, but if they add a third (or even a 4th or 5th) class, then they have to have parity between levels in each class (i.e. they must be within 1 level of each other) or they need twice as much experience to advance to the next level until parity is again achieved.

My THB take on it would then be something to the effect that a human with a beginning career as a Scout (though for a human, this core racial class is technically whatever class they have the most levels in). For examples sake, we'll say he is a 5th level Scout, he leaves the scout service and becomes a Merchant and attains 4 more levels there (total character levels are now at 9). If for some reason, he then chose to add a level of Traveller, he would need double the amount of experience to attain each of the follow-on levels, until such time as he was within 1 level of the both of the other classes...so he would have to gain twice as much experience per level as a Traveller until his level in Traveller reached 4th level (total character level of 13).

Bear in mind, I could be way off base here, but I don't recall reading anything in the THB that voided the multiclass rules from the PH.

Six Actual, Out.

 

[ctskerry]

Originally posted by Borodin:

And on an unrelated note, why do Rogues get only 4 skill points/level? Seems like they would want to trade off some of their BAB for an extra skillpoint at least. But then, they can just multiclass into Traveller or Merchant or something to get some extra skillpoints, and focus their Rogue skill points on 'roguish' skills.

Huh? Do you get to take the class with the highest skill points/level value that you're multiclassed into regardless of which class you're currently leveling in?

Kerry

 

[eclipse]

Originally posted by Kerry Harrison:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Borodin:

And on an unrelated note, why do Rogues get only 4 skill points/level? Seems like they would want to trade off some of their BAB for an extra skillpoint at least. But then, they can just multiclass into Traveller or Merchant or something to get some extra skillpoints, and focus their Rogue skill points on 'roguish' skills.

Huh? Do you get to take the class with the highest skill points/level value that you're multiclassed into regardless of which class you're currently leveling in?
Kerry </font>[/QUOTE]Not the way I read it, but then I'm generally strict about such things.

If you are going up in Rogue, then you have the skills ranks and class skills for Rogue.

If you multiclass from there to Traveller, then when you take that level in Traveller, you get the number of new skill ranks for the Traveller class, and you have to go by the Traveller Class Class Skill limitations. By changing class, you are changing the focus & direction the character is taking. That should be reflected in the character advancement.

 

[ctskerry]

Originally posted by eclipse:
Not the way I read it, but then I'm generally strict about such things.

If you are going up in Rogue, then you have the skills ranks and class skills for Rogue.

If you multiclass from there to Traveller, then when you take that level in Traveller, you get the number of new skill ranks for the Traveller class, and you have to go by the Traveller Class Class Skill limitations. By changing class, you are changing the focus & direction the character is taking. That should be reflected in the character advancement.

Okay, that's the way I read it also, but wasn't a 100% sure and Borodin's post to me at least implied that you take the higher value regardless of class currently leveling in.

Kerry

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Vargr Merc:
I thought that there were restrictions built into the core rules for multiclassing.

[snip snip]

Bear in mind, I could be way off base here, but I don't recall reading anything in the THB that voided the multiclass rules from the PH.

Six Actual, Out.

Since I've never read the D&D PHB, I don't know for sure, but a friend of mine said it was so...

As for the THB overruling it, I think that just by looking at the Service Class you get your answer

How else could you be a Navy 6 / Merc 2 ?

Since you can only get your service class level when actively engaged in that service (and not all GM are doing service-only games) you can't be within 1 level of it for long...

I seems to recall that you can multiclass in whatever you want and as much as you want as long as you meet the requirements.

Could be out in the parking lot tho