Why not more Robots?

[Greylond]

Question for discussion:

Why not more Robots? With the average TL of the Imperium, how come there aren't more Robots serving in various places? The TL gives the ability to make sentient Robots so, you'd think that you'd see more of them in the OTU. Why not a Merchant Ship with a Biological Captain, Chief Engineer and Chief Steward(And maybe a "Chief Robotics Officer") who manage/supervise a ship's crew of Robots. Or how about a Squadron of Fighters made up mostly of Robotic Fighter Pilots with a Biological Squadron Commander(and maybe his Exec) who flies on missions in formation with his Robot Fighters to supervise?

The only thing that I can see that argues against it is a Human prejudice against Robots "Taking Jobs Away." But once a Free Trader gets away from the Starport, who cares? It seems to me that a small group of characters could run a fairly large ship with the right mix of robots.

And the reason couldn't be cost. Look at the cost of a typical Type R Trader, adding in 4 or 5 Robot Crewmen is going to add what? 1%, maybe less, to the cost?

So, is there a TL Reason for not seeing more Robots at the Imperium's average TL? Economic? Or is it pure Biological Anti-Robot Prejudice?

 

[atpollard]

Metagame ...
People are fun; fighting robots, not so much.

Historic ...
Most of the OTU fluff was established before the Classic Traveller book on Robots was written, so the background had a rules bias at the start (and Traveller is often fanatically faithfull to what has come before).

Rules/TL ...
The game always struck me as a little schizophrenic on the area of robots. The TL chart has always insisted that 'artificial intelligence' appears at TL 17 and 'self aware robots' at TL 18. The Robot Rules, when they finally appeared, have contradicted this with the descriptions of what robot programs can do at various TLs.

Personal Opinions ...
I have no idea what impacted the various official writers, but I see anything to do with robots in Traveller as a strictly IMTU area and an OTU minefield of previous contradictions.

Personally, I treat ROBOTS like I treat NANOTECHNOLOGY ... it exists in the background, but nobody pays any attention to it.
[sort of like the sewer system, you don't think about it until it breaks.]

Conclusion ...
If you can sort it all out, then I'd love to hear what you come up with.

 

[atpollard]

IMTU:
I have a 0.5 dTon kiosk that appears in various public spaces, like office cafeteria and starport food courts, that has a window to a robot cook (torso, arms and head) with a white hat and apron, that prepares food to order from a pantry in the kiosk and a programmed menu.

Monthly rental/service contract can be quite reasonable, and more expensive models have a larger menu to order from.

 

[HG_B]

Question for discussion:

Why not more Robots? With the average TL of the Imperium, how come there aren't more Robots serving in various places? The TL gives the ability to make sentient Robots so,

Well, IMTU & most versions of the game artificial Sentients are >TL 15. That being said, I have robots all over the place in my game. MGT rules assumes that AI (not to be confused with AS) robots fill ship crew positions regularly too.

 

[atpollard]

From the program descriptions, Artificial Intelligence and Artificial Sentient seems like a distinction with no difference.
What can a sentient robot do that an intelligent robot can't?
Write poetry about it's feelings?

[I am not challenging your answer, I just cant quite grasp the difference that the game is attempting to convey.]

 

[rancke]

My take is that robots are suceptible to viruses and they are favorite targets of terrorists. There's nothing a terrorist relishes more than programming a butlerbot to go amok at the next grand ball or a store clerk at the next Holiday sale. The safeguards and insurance concerns that this causes increase the operating cost of robots to the point where living beings often turn out to be the most economic way to go.


Hans

 

[whartung]

From the program descriptions, Artificial Intelligence and Artificial Sentient seems like a distinction with no difference.
What can a sentient robot do that an intelligent robot can't?
Write poetry about it's feelings?

[I am not challenging your answer, I just cant quite grasp the difference that the game is attempting to convey.]

That may well be it.

An "AI" might have a functional IQ in the 50-60's, but be trainable as a savant (assembly line worker, skilled auto technician, etc.), whereas "AS" has a higher functional IQ, and can "think" abstractly, perhaps create art or music, and reason about new situations and grasp and intuit higher concepts.

Commercial development may well have stopped at the AI level because it was capable of managing most labor tasks efficiently and safely, and after that infamous incident with SkyNet in Old Terra, it was basically decided the we'd rather have organic theoretical physicists and "thinkers" than cybernetic. People may think "they're creepy".

 

[HG_B]

From the program descriptions, Artificial Intelligence and Artificial Sentient seems like a distinction with no difference.
What can a sentient robot do that an intelligent robot can't?
Write poetry about it's feelings?

AI is the ability to operate in an environment and solve problems related to its programming. Very high end s/w & h/w. AS is being aware of own existence. YOU are sentient. YOU know you ARE. AI is your computer on steroids.

Now, if one consider oneself to be a computer on steroids there will appear to be no difference...

 

[Greylond]

Well, IMTU & most versions of the game artificial Sentients are >TL 15. That being said, I have robots all over the place in my game. MGT rules assumes that AI (not to be confused with AS) robots fill ship crew positions regularly too.

I never played CT with the Robots rules. MgT with the Robots book you can create a TL11 Robot with a "Synaptic CPU". At TL12 Personality Program(Class 2) that gives it an Int 5. Add in an Encyclopaedia Level 3 which gives it a Edu 9 and a Expert Skill Package(Pilot) 3. Or switch out any other Skill at Level 3. So, I can't see a technical reason against Robotic Crewmen, at least in MgT.

My take is that robots are suceptible to viruses and they are favorite targets of terrorists. There's nothing a terrorist relishes more than programming a butlerbot to go amok at the next grand ball or a store clerk at the next Holiday sale. The safeguards and insurance concerns that this causes increase the operating cost of robots to the point where living beings often turn out to be the most economic way to go.

But how do you load the virus in the robot if it doesn't have a network link anywhere except during maintenance periods? The defense is just better anti-viral security.

As for being better choice than humans, what's the defense against a Terrorist from just posing as a crewmember and performing the sabotage instead of the Robot?

 

[Greylond]

Metagame ...
People are fun; fighting robots, not so much.

True, but like I said, the same size group of Characters should be able to run a bigger ship with Robots AND still have room for fun.

Basically, instead of having a group of 4-6 PCs running a 200 ton Free Trader, you could have the same group running a 600 to 1000 ton Ship managing Robot Crewmen. So, you'd still need a Chief Pilot/Captain, Chief Engineer, Chief Gunner, Chief Steward, etc. All of those roles filled by PCs but the rest of the crew is Robots.

 

[HG_B]

MgT with the Robots book you can create a TL11 Robot with a "Synaptic CPU". At TL12 Personality Program(Class 2) that gives it an Int 5. Add in an Encyclopaedia Level 3 which gives it a Edu 9 and a Expert Skill Package(Pilot) 3. Or switch out any other Skill at Level 3. So, I can't see a technical reason against Robotic Crewmen, at least in MgT.

They are actually called for in the CRB ship design section. I think where it discusses number of crew needed. It is assumed in MGT that merchant ships will often opt for this rather than pay some crew positions...

 

[Greylond]

They are actually called for in the CRB ship design section. I think where it discusses number of crew needed. It is assumed in MGT that merchant ships will often opt for this rather than pay some crew positions...

Yea, I think it's in there but not discussed in detail and then all the MgT DeckPlans/Ship Designs all show Staterooms for the needed Crewmembers.

So, in CT and other versions of the game, at what TL could you have Robot Crewmen?

 

[rancke]

But how do you load the virus in the robot if it doesn't have a network link anywhere except during maintenance periods?

You sneak up on it and use your expensive TL15 equipment on the cheap TL 12 robot. Or on the cheap TL15 robot for that matter.

The defense is just better anti-viral security.

It doesn't matter what the defense is as long as it increases the operating costs.

As for being better choice than humans, what's the defense against a Terrorist from just posing as a crewmember and performing the sabotage instead of the Robot?

Why, you'll have some human guards to examine his credentials, of course.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

So, in CT and other versions of the game, at what TL could you have Robot Crewmen?

CT Book 8 Robots has it ~TL 14. But, this book also lists Earths current TL 7 manufacturing robots as TL 10. So, obviously the author knows next to nothing about technology.

 

[HG_B]

You sneak up on it and use your expensive TL15 equipment on the cheap TL 12 robot. Or on the cheap TL15 robot for that matter.

:rofl:

Magic doesn't work in MTU

 

[Greylond]

heh... Good answers but I think the security issues for Terrorists would overall be about the same level for Humans or Robots. Credentials can be faked. Real Humans with the correct Credentials can be suborned to work for you. RL Example, the USN's Walker Spy Ring. Walker was a very experienced and trusted Naval Warrant Officer and according to records released after the fall of the USSR Walker's spy ring was at the time considered to be the #1 source of Intelligence for the Soviets. Plus there's plenty of examples in RL where Humans are the weak link. I doubt that would change much in a High TL Society.


Good discussion, keep it going. It's making me think.

 

[Greylond]

CT Book 8 Robots has it ~TL 14. But, this book also lists Earths current TL 7 manufacturing robots as TL 10. So, obviously the author knows next to nothing about technology.

Yea, see that's what I was thinking, but I don't feel that I have enough experience with CT Robots to make that assumption, thus why I asked the question here among people who have extensive knowledge of the system.

Thx for your input.

 

[Dragoner]

There are robots articles, 3 iirc, in the old JTAS's, we used them; the only caveat is that they were expensive.

Here is another one, when do AI become "The Culture"?

 

[Greylond]

There are robots articles, 3 iirc, in the old JTAS's, we used them; the only caveat is that they were expensive.

well, that's my point. When you are purchasing a Ship with a value in the Multi-Million of Credit range with a 40 year Mortgage, what's an extra couple of 100,000 credits to have robotic crewmen to round out your crew?

 

[Dragoner]

well, that's my point. When you are purchasing a Ship with a value in the Multi-Million of Credit range with a 40 year Mortgage, what's an extra couple of 100,000 credits to have robotic crewmen to round out your crew?

Depends on who's buying it, poor PC's scrapping pennies together to pay 220% of list over 40 years? Then the 'bots are way too expensive; if it is a MegaCorp that is buying a ship outright at 90% of list, then they will throw at least one robot shift into that price. I have also had robot PC's in game, so there is that as well, robots are cool.