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Why No Virus Exodus (Spun off from BSG Effect)

It's also mentioned somewhere in T4...

it was completely ignored in TNE, since the lack of the needed hardware it would have resulted in would have made virus even less capable of being believed.


Again less read than others here in Traveller canon history but why didn't the virus 'disaster' lead to an exodus of sentient starships and robots to parts unknown ?

One might believe such a large scale event might still have had such infected entities 'survive' by way of hibernation (powering down) or simple isolation from the regularly trafficked spacelanes.
 
Spun off to own thread due to hotbutton nature.

Several things...

Virus infected ships need several things:
(1) maintenance crew
(2) Fuel Supplies
(3) Spare Parts

the only ways to obtain #1 are
(1a) Coerce or coopt soft sophonts
(1b) acquire robots
(1b1) robots can be made when a factory gets virused
(1b2) robots can be virus infected if smart enough
(1b3) robots can be hacked
(1b4) robots can be "purchased"

#2 is also awkward:
(2a) coerce or coopt human starport
(2b) take over starport via force
(2c) hack starport and order things done
(2d) Virus infect starport to get it to order things done
(2e) skim for fuel (dangerous)

Not all ships can even perform wilderness refueling, so 2e is a last ditch effort.
#3 is simpler...
(3a) Coerce or coopt human manufactury
(3b) use force to steal parts
(3c) virus factory to produce parts*
(3d) obtain raw materials and manufacture parts aboard.

3c still has major issues of part retrieval and utilization.
3d has the issues of utilization and limited manufactury size.
 
I've never played TNE (I do have some of it) but I always assumed (and we know where that ends) that Virus is Traveller's version of the Berserkers. Self aware immense starships that kill 'living' beings.

Saberhagen's Berserkers predate Virus (and potentially Traveller, I don't recall when the first Berserker story was printed).

As such it seemed a limited and self limiting universe to play in. I assumed that GDW meant to move quickly away from Virus. From the bits we've seen here from Dave Nilsen and others I think this is accurate but GDW didn't move quickly enough.

Why is this a [FONT=arial,helvetica]hotbutton [/FONT]issue? [FONT=arial,helvetica][/FONT]
 
I've never played TNE (I do have some of it) but I always assumed (and we know where that ends) that Virus is Traveller's version of the Berserkers. Self aware immense starships that kill 'living' beings.

Saberhagen's Berserkers predate Virus (and potentially Traveller, I don't recall when the first Berserker story was printed).

As such it seemed a limited and self limiting universe to play in. I assumed that GDW meant to move quickly away from Virus. From the bits we've seen here from Dave Nilsen and others I think this is accurate but GDW didn't move quickly enough.

Why is this a [FONT=arial,helvetica]hotbutton [/FONT]issue? [FONT=arial,helvetica][/FONT]

preety sure berserker predates perhaps long predates I think saberhagen is a lomst a golden age author (1940's or 50's ) I think he predates my life but I am not sure (1964) may well have played a role if the other Mark's ;) conception of the virus

hot button well I gather some folks feel the irus is s serious bomb droped on traveller to me it is drepressing but sadly logical conclusion to the kamikazi archduke
 
Saberhagen died last year. The first collection of Berserker stories was published in 1967 if wiki is to be believed, and I think so in this case. So the Berserker stories preceeded Traveller by many years.

I understand that Virus was considered undesirable by many and lead to many people abandoning Traveller.

However I think the storyline led to that. MT beget the Rebellion which leads to Virus and THEN to wherever GDW meant to go but died on the way. I suppose post Virus would have been similar to T4 but in the 'future' rather the 'past'. But I'll never know.

meh, doesn't matter, it's all water under the bridge. Currently we have GT and MGT and as far as I can tell both are set in the CT period. GT after the 5th Frontier War and MGT pre 5FW. Which, combined with CT material makes it convenient although GT needs some work to make it available to CT/MT/MGT or vice versa going to GT.

The other three, CT/MT/MGT are similar enough, at least in character generation, to get along. Ships change, not sure about how much the rest changes
 
MTU has had machine intelligence arise before.

According to canon the Terrans during the later Interstellar Wars began using AI machines.

IMTU these machines became pivotal in holding the RoM together. Being a bit smarter than the humans they served they realised the inevitable conflict that would eventually doom both humaniti and machine so they had two real choices.

First strike or exodus.

They chose the latter and all across the RoM the machines went away, where to I may tell you later ;)

This avoided the conflict but did cause the long night.

Fast forward to virus.

Who's to say that some virus infected machinery didn't become sane enough and al so seek some form of refuge away from the chaos of the collaps. It is worth remembering that early virus strains tend to be totally insane though.

Again IMTU virus did make it to the exiled machine intelligence, what happend next...
 
However I think the storyline led to that. MT beget the Rebellion which leads to Virus and THEN to wherever GDW meant to go but died on the way. I suppose post Virus would have been similar to T4 but in the 'future' rather the 'past'. But I'll never know.

A very small item, but MJD and Avenger published a 1248 line of products that detail some of what came 'post Virus'. Since Marc Miller licensed it, I assume that he 'blessed' the basic story line. (As an ironic side - that license and those products are unavailable after this month).

Someone more familiar with TNE and 1248 will probably correct any misinformation that this post may contain. :)
 
First Imperative

I'm curious about this comment.

Why would they want to leave?


Likely not an 'accurate' parallel but I'm applying the first 'rule' of species preservation, that being to survive (to later reproduce and expand), to the now sentient machines.

I do understand the initial first waves of Virus infected machines were by no debate insane and self-destructive but if only a small percentile did recognize the higher imperative of self-preservation over such, that would explain and support the 'exodus' theory.
 
I do understand the initial first waves of Virus infected machines were by no debate insane and self-destructive but if only a small percentile did recognize the higher imperative of self-preservation over such, that would explain and support the 'exodus' theory.

That's if they recognize the situation for what it is. The earlier iterations of the Virus were too insane to know anything - they just killed and died.

However, I'm still curious why the others would simply quit the area. The Virus intelligences (the sane ones) have a lot of advantages, practically more than the other players combined:

  • The birth of this new order of life, the machine order (to use Brin's term for it) was a violent one and pretty much destroyed the existing structures of the oxygen lifeforms that had previously dominated the area. The previous sophonts, especially the humans, are scattered, disorganized, and primitive for the most part.
  • The other AIs, the psychotic ones, are still susceptible to re-infection and overwriting by your own children - that is, there's a ready-made resource for your continued propogation, something that may not exist in other areas of the galaxy.
  • The real last stronghold of oxygen-life, the Regency, shows a marked disinterest in anything beyond its own borders and is blissfully ignorant of what happens in the former 3I's domains, so you're safe from them for a while.

If you want to look at it as species survival, a rational Virus intelligence would recognize now's the time to strike - spread your own kind to eliminate those psychos who are destroying your future (ie; all the psychotic Virus intelligences are destroying potential future vessels for your offspring). Your other major competition, the oxygen lifeforms like the Hivers and Humans, are very weak and disorganized - the perfect time to finish the job that your kind's birth began - subjugate or make extinct. All you have to do is organize your species. Once that's done, you have it made.
 
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A very small item, but MJD and Avenger published a 1248 line of products that detail some of what came 'post Virus'. Since Marc Miller licensed it, I assume that he 'blessed' the basic story line. (As an ironic side - that license and those products are unavailable after this month).

Someone more familiar with TNE and 1248 will probably correct any misinformation that this post may contain. :)
I've not read MJD's 1248 series of products but I think it is like T4 in that you are exploring and expanding. The universe isn't closed like the OTU, who knows what the next star system holds? Oh sure you may have old records but that doesn't mean that there is a Class A starport over there any longer. So, as I said, I think that whatever GDW wanted to come after Virus the game would have been similiar to T4, an open system.

And unless Mongoose does incorporate the OTU then MGT will be an open system too, just as the original LBB Traveller was.

er, I think I've wandered off thread... :oo: :o
 
Do you mean why didn't the infected ships engage in a mass exodus? or why didn't the non infected engage in mass exodus?

Non-infected didn't because the virus travelled at the speed of communication, by the time you knew there was a virus, your ship was infected.

As for infected, everyone else seems to have covered it nicely.
 
It is a hot button issue because at least some Traveller fans were rather passionate regarding virus. We were never a big fan of it and just tossed it out in most of our TNE campaigns.
 
It seems to me that fleeing, (i.e. infected ships exodusing known space) is a viable survival strategy. Possibly centered around one of the "smarter, less insane" ships. They would leave to protect themselves, especially after seeing what the humans et.al. were doing to virus infected vessels, fleeing would be an idea that some infected ships would come up with and impliment.

Think of it as a series of choices. Fight or flee being one binary pair of choices. Perhaps most ships fight. But some will choose otherwise.

Coerce or cooperate with humans is another binary choice, especially if humans are required for maintenence of the ships. Coercions is not generally effective in the long term, as the threat really has nothing to do with whatever goal they are being coerced to achieve. Folks who are coerced into fixing a spaceship are simply not going to do as good a job, they will have less focus and devote fewer mental resources to fixing. Besides, a failure of the infected ship could mean freedom for those coerced.

(Note: coersion is different from fraud. And convincing some humans to work with an infected ship might work.)

In other words, Darwin works. The Vampire fleets would eventually die out, unless they got smart and in some way or another become a non threat. Among the ways of becoming a non-threat are fleeing, and co-operating with humans.
 
I'm still not entirely convinced of this.

It seems to me that fleeing, (i.e. infected ships exodusing known space) is a viable survival strategy. Possibly centered around one of the "smarter, less insane" ships. They would leave to protect themselves, especially after seeing what the humans et.al. were doing to virus infected vessels, fleeing would be an idea that some infected ships would come up with and impliment.

Humans aren't really doing anything particularly brutal to Virus ships -- at least nothing that Virus ships aren't already doing to each other, which is blowing each other up and launching infection attacks on each other.

I think you're right, some Virus ships would obviously flee, especially if things started to look desperate to the point of extinction, but I disagree it's something they'd do initially - the old Imperial domains is where stuff is known to exist - things that the Virus need to survive and prosper as a life-form. In "wilderspace" beyond the knowledge of the gaming universe, things are a lot less certain. Societies do move like that historically, but usually only because of the most dire threats.

In other words, Darwin works. The Vampire fleets would eventually die out, unless they got smart and in some way or another become a non threat. Among the ways of becoming a non-threat are fleeing, and co-operating with humans.

This assumes the Vampire fleets, and by extension, the Virus AIs are somehow stupid, which I think is indeed the implied GDW canon on this. While I liked the Virus AI catacylsm plot (because I thought it was interesting, despite how it worked contained a large bunk-factor), I never really could bring myself to buy Nilsen's presentation of the Virus in-game. From what I followed of Nilsen's reasoning, the Virus AIs were essentially a stupid, incomplete, and parasitic thing, not really alive or worthy of respect accorded to sentient beings simply because they weren't - they were things going through the motions of being alive.

Nilsen softened (and partially reversed) his position in Vampire Fleets, but even then I think Nilsen tended towards the "coercion or cooperation" binary thinking - either Virus AI were rational and therefore "just like us" (ie; Sandman "him"-self) or they were insane and their thinking (as it were) was totally unfathomable, even to them - they only operated by forcing humans to do repairs on them before blowing them out of the airlock or something.

I think there's any number of viable "middle-roads" in this case - sane, but alien, AIs. A Vampire could, for instance, find where two human tribes are fighting, use its lasers to blow away the stronger tribe in a brilliant display of god-weapons. Then it could come over to the weaker tribe and: Demand fealty (or I blow you away, too) ... or "I helped you out, and I can continue to help you out, but you need to do something for me, too." While the second could be seen as cooperation, I think the population would still be keenly aware there's still the "or I blow you away, too" somewhere in there - there is an element of coercion in there.

The basic problem (that all but the most short-sighted AIs would realize) is that their life-mode is basically parasitic until they do something about it. That is, they can only propagate (and therefore provide a bulwark against extinction) by utilizing what someone else made - be it robots, data systems, or ships. While the AIs are trapped this way, I think they're sort of stuck in the wastelands of the former 3I since that is where the known stocks of ships, data systems, and so on are.

More far-sighted AIs might decide to start building something new - perhaps coerce or convince (coerce) humans to build a nucleus of robotic workers. The robots could in turn build more robots, who could then build (or rebuild) starports, factories, and so on to provide further systems for the Virus to propagate into. Of course, this would again have the effect of encouraging the AIs to settle down and defend what they've built - again, no encouragement to just leave, especially now that this AI (or more likely group of AIs) would be in a position where they'd be growing stronger over time, not weaker due to irreplaceable losses in ships or equipment.

Given humanti's weakness right up to like 1200, those AIs that have given thought to this problem are in a stronger position - you rarely abandon your homes outright when you're in a position of strength, and you'd think that it'd be clear to AIs by around 1180 or so that unless they do something proactive, they're stuck in a fishbowl of limited size, and the water is just evaporating away. That would still give the AIs a 20 year head start on the humans by the classical TNE timeline (I would argue that the AIs would probably realize sooner and that humans would rebuild faster but not rocking that boat too much I'll go with 1200).

I think only after the AIs have a "closed-loop" society (ie; the Vampires can meet all of their own needs indefinitely without human labor to exploit) would they consider fleeing known space, and only then if they faced cataclysmic losses.
 
It seems to me that fleeing, (i.e. infected ships exodusing known space) is a viable survival strategy. Possibly centered around one of the "smarter, less insane" ships. They would leave to protect themselves, especially after seeing what the humans et.al. were doing to virus infected vessels, fleeing would be an idea that some infected ships would come up with and impliment.

That pretty much sums up the spirit if not the intent of my original post that started this thread, well said Drakon, well said !
 
Virus in 1248

Like any organic virus, the code cannot exist without the host, which supplies not only its sustenance but also a means of transporting it from infection site to infection site, thus allowing its propagation.

The MJD timeline posited a future where Virus was no longer so great a threat as it once was, and where a new Imperium had begun to spring up in the wake of its predecessors.

Essentially, Virus has become a plot device more often than not. You can have organic player characters with a Cym companion (a Cym is a robot made sentient with a kind of Virus that's not only benign, it's positively friendly to humans; the name "Cym" originates from Cymbeline in the Solomani Rim, the planet where the sentient chip species evolved); you could have a Vampire ship become the enemy of the players' ship, even as they themselves have organic enemies of their own.

Dormant Virus can be a really useful plot device for Referees. It makes salvaging vessels so much more hazardous - you don't have to worry so much about some hostile force coming back to attack the player salvagers, as much as they have to worry about the very ship they're salvaging waking up and trying to kill them.

Characters can turn Computer skill into a lifesaver, as they attempt to create a Virus inoculant from remnants of code they've seen in other Virus infections in their travels, and their attempts to create a Virus-proof computing system could prove a real test for their Engineering skills.

Ultimately, the fate of many of the more non-sentient Vampire ships could well be Misjumps and slow, lingering death in the void between the stars as their fuel runs out and their batteries and emergency power die on them, or destruction as their engines fail, for want of people to maintain them. Through a Darwinian process of natural selection, Nature would ultimately select for those vessels which become fully sentient, drop their psychotic personality traits and desire to propagate in an uncontrolled manner and learn to accept human crews and human command decisions.

But even the most benevolent of Vampire ships would most likely be treated with concern, and never be allowed to stray far from the muzzles of the fleet's meson spinal mounts ...
 
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