Michael Taylor
SOC-13
I'd buy that setting book.
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
As a quick aside, I find it interesting that fantasy is so popular in book and videogame form, yet scifi is vastly more popular in movie and TV form. I wonder why?
Michael Taylor
SOC-13
I went into our local gaming store (the only one in the south island of NZ I think) today, and they had gurps traveller stuff, shitloads of crap fantasy stuff, D20 modern and D20 future and no T20 stuff. Every T20 book they got in sold, so someone in my home town must be playing it. Dunno who though!
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
Interesting. I've never felt that way. I'm not a math or science person. I like the possibilities of science fiction, the way it stimulates the imagination. But I don't really get into the science behind it -- nor, truthfully, do I understand a lot of it.
However, this has never stopped my enjoyment of Traveller.
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
In reading through all this discussion, I have come to the same conclusion. Part of the argument is a matter of semantics. Traveller is not generic, but it is flexible and versatile. Even if you set your game in the OTU. That should be emphasized in the marketing of the game.
GURPS is generic. It even says so right in the title.
M
Malenfant
Guest
I never figured this out either. I wonder if it's down to the mores of the time. After all, scifi was pretty darn popular in the 50s and 60s. I can't think of a single fantasy movie from that era, but there were zillions of scifi B-movies.
But then the 70s came along, and you had Conan popularised and Gor and all that other stuff that was all scantily clad maidens and sinews and maybe that's why it got so popular
Right now, Fantasy is hot as hell probably largely because of the Lord of the Rings.
But then you think in the 30s, pulp was all the rage.
I dunno. There's probably holes all over that theory
- but I suspect the point that tastes change from one genre to another over the decades might be valid. Of course, the other obvious thing is that fantasy is pretty easy to understand - the big guy chops stuff up, the guy in the pointy hat zaps things, the guy in black is sneaky, and so on and they all go and Fight Evil and Kill Monsters. It's fairly universal and easy to grasp.
Scifi requires a lot more depth generally - and in some cases a lot more education - plus it's also traditionally been used a lot more for social commentary about technology and so on. Maybe that's why it tends to attract the more technical-minded types who'd wonder about that sort of stuff anyway.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Yeah, but how many T20 books did they get in? If they got in two books and they both sold, then sure that's 100% of the stock, but I'd bet they sold a lot more of the other stuff in that period.
(it's better than mine though, they can't even GET T20 in because it's not available through the distributor they use, and basically no amount of advertising will change that).
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Why use Traveller instead of one of these others if you want generic roleplaying? I can think of several very good reason. Since CT (If you include Striker) each set of Traveller rules you have been able to design vehicles from scratch. From one man powered armor to multi-million ton Starships. (The only limitation to these designs is the hyper drive physics.) You can build an M-1 Tank within the rules, an AH-64, Luke Skywalker's Speeder, Anakin's Pod racer, Grav Tanks, Mechs, Terminators (Both Games Workshop's and Arnold's)
YOu have been able to quickly design and populate worlds, systems, subsectors and sectors. Develope encounter tables for aliens. (The Non-Sentient kind)
YOu can pull, literally thousands of Deckplans and starship designs, thousands of vehicles off the Internet if you don't want to do all the work yourself.
What other game gives you all that?
IF I am going to do generic Sci-Fi gaming why would I choose anything else? Now if I am going to chose the OTU as a background for my Campaign, what other RPG is as developed with as rich a history. Greyhawk never got this much treatment. Forgotten Realms might have. But that is about it. There is a bigger fan base for Star Trek but the Star Trek Universe is even more contradictory than the OTU.
But I like playing in the OTU. And as a GM the history is rich enough, the terrain is varied enough that I can run 7 campaigns and never be in the same place. Or I can run several campaigns in teh same place with different settings. (IE. THe Spinward Marches, during the early days of the Third Imperium, during the fourth Frontier/Solomani Rim wars, during the 5th Frontier War, During the Rebellion, During the early 1200s, and during the mid 1200s. Or I could run one campaign that can span almost 1300 years. (though I doubt I would be able to keep a gaming group together that long.
I can build Gears and/or Mechs and Drop Heinlein's Starship troopers all over them and see who comes out ahead.
The only rules missing are the rules for hyperdrives other than jump drives.
YOu can even build buggers (ENder's game) or Arachnids (Starship Troopers).
Is there Demon Creation Rules in 3.5E? Or even monster creation rules? (there wasn't in AD&D)
As for your generic games, d20 Future for example, what specific settings do they have? I haven't seen any in stores.
But I am still tryuing to figure out which side you are on? Are you saying you want something more specific and less vague or are you saying it is too specific and not generic enough? YOu are claiming both again.
YOu have been able to quickly design and populate worlds, systems, subsectors and sectors. Develope encounter tables for aliens. (The Non-Sentient kind)
YOu can pull, literally thousands of Deckplans and starship designs, thousands of vehicles off the Internet if you don't want to do all the work yourself.
What other game gives you all that?
IF I am going to do generic Sci-Fi gaming why would I choose anything else? Now if I am going to chose the OTU as a background for my Campaign, what other RPG is as developed with as rich a history. Greyhawk never got this much treatment. Forgotten Realms might have. But that is about it. There is a bigger fan base for Star Trek but the Star Trek Universe is even more contradictory than the OTU.
But I like playing in the OTU. And as a GM the history is rich enough, the terrain is varied enough that I can run 7 campaigns and never be in the same place. Or I can run several campaigns in teh same place with different settings. (IE. THe Spinward Marches, during the early days of the Third Imperium, during the fourth Frontier/Solomani Rim wars, during the 5th Frontier War, During the Rebellion, During the early 1200s, and during the mid 1200s. Or I could run one campaign that can span almost 1300 years. (though I doubt I would be able to keep a gaming group together that long.
I can build Gears and/or Mechs and Drop Heinlein's Starship troopers all over them and see who comes out ahead.
The only rules missing are the rules for hyperdrives other than jump drives.
YOu can even build buggers (ENder's game) or Arachnids (Starship Troopers).
Is there Demon Creation Rules in 3.5E? Or even monster creation rules? (there wasn't in AD&D)
As for your generic games, d20 Future for example, what specific settings do they have? I haven't seen any in stores.
But I am still tryuing to figure out which side you are on? Are you saying you want something more specific and less vague or are you saying it is too specific and not generic enough? YOu are claiming both again.
Regardless, it's still something that separates Traveller from say Heavy Gear, or Transhuman Space. It still makes it specific.
True, but there's nothing provided in the rules that allow you to come up with those races, and there's nothing that helps you picture what would happen if certain major races were removed (becuase if you did that, it wouldn't be the OTU). Maybe Traveller needs an "alien race creation" book or something (like GURPS Aliens or GURPS Uplift). But right now, you're on your own if you want to create your own alien races for the game (especially from a game mechanics point of view). </font>[/QUOTE]
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Science Fiction will always have a place in the movies. Primarily because of all the really cool special effects you can do with starships and such. Fantasy has always been second place. the Matrix series vs. THe Lord of the Rings. Here is the reason broken down to the most basic level. In Fantasy you get to hack and slash and occasionally get some kewl spell effects. In Sci-Fi you get to blow shit up.
That is why Sci-Fi is more popular in the movies and on TV.
As a quick aside, I find it interesting that fantasy is so popular in book and videogame form, yet scifi is vastly more popular in movie and TV form. I wonder why? </font>[/QUOTE]
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Mal: I am tired of your circular arguments and trying to take both sides of the issue. The anwser to the question of getting more people to play traveller is to make it available to more people.
It is a classic situation of selling, the more people that have a chance to buy your product the more will buy it.
It is a classic situation of selling, the more people that have a chance to buy your product the more will buy it.
M
Malenfant
Guest
*slaps down a copy of GURPS Vehicles* - that can do all of the above. And you can have GURPS Mecha for building Mecha. And GURPS Robots for building any Robots you like. And they won't hinder you in any way by limiting the tech assumptions either.
Not sure about HERO since I don't play it, but they do have a Vehicle design book, and from what I've seen of it I'm pretty sure you can make absolutely anything with HERO.
DP9's Silhouette system has got a pretty nifty effect-based vehicle design system in it too that can cope with all scales from man-sized Exo-suite in Jovian Chronicles up to 100,000 km long Stellar Devourers in Core Command.
Next question?
GURPS Space. Star Hero. Plus others I'm sure.
Well, there's something Traveller can do (and least, I don't know of others that have that)
Well, you can pull about a thousand designs off one Traveller resource that IIRC Robert Prior produced. But I strongly doubt that there are literally "thousands" of deckplans and vehicles specifically produced for Traveller. But you can find a hell of a lot of designs and deckplans for Star Wars and Star Trek at least.
With the exception of animal encounter tables - GURPS and HERO can.
Because you're aware of is Traveller and you haven't looked at all the other options?
if it's rich history you want, try Empire of the Petal Throne/Tekumel (soon to be rereleased by GoO). Or Skyrealms of Jorune. Or Runequest (which IIRC, has actually been around for at least as long - if not longer - than Traveller has). There are several games with a much deeper, more detailed in-game history than Traveller has.
That, I suspect, is more a problem for new players. Where should they start? Plus, even if they find Traveller players, they've all got their own preferred era. If a new player fancies running in the TNE era, I bet any Traveller player he finds will instead scoff and lecture him about how awful they thought it was rather than play his game.But I like playing in the OTU. And as a GM the history is rich enough, the terrain is varied enough that I can run 7 campaigns and never be in the same place. Or I can run several campaigns in teh same place with different settings. (IE. THe Spinward Marches, during the early days of the Third Imperium, during the fourth Frontier/Solomani Rim wars, during the 5th Frontier War, During the Rebellion, During the early 1200s, and during the mid 1200s. Or I could run one campaign that can span almost 1300 years. (though I doubt I would be able to keep a gaming group together that long.
Mecha design rules have been produced for Traveller?
Those were in TNE: Fire Fusion and Steel, but that's not available for current versions of Traveller (though DTRPG murkies this issue somewhat now). While GURPS Vehicles and/or Space can handle those options for GURPS Traveller, there's no tech design book like that available for d20 or T20 yet.
Using the animal generators? I guess you could.
Not that I know of.
They have settings for bughunters, crossdimensional travel, the old Alternity Stardrive setting, a Space Cops setting, Cyberpunk with genetically engineered warriors, and a post-nuclear apocalypse Mad Max type thing in the book. I think some of those (including probably Star Drive, and perhaps Star Frontiers) will be getting their own books later on.
I'd like Traveller to make up its mind which side it's on. I think ideally Traveller should become a truly generic and fully adaptable sf toolkit like GURPS Space/Star Hero and have the OTU as a complete setting separate to the rules. The only problem with that though is that GURPS Space and Star HERO are established generic systems, and a generic Traveller wouldn't really add anything to the pot that they already have.
M
Malenfant
Guest
You don't seem to be reading what I'm saying then.
What, actual, targeted marketing and advertising doesn't matter? It's purely a case of making it visible? I doubt that.
Making it more widely available might sell a few more copies, but if people don't want to buy it then it won't help at all. The rpgnet thread seems to indicate that people aren't interested in Traveller as it stands. Shoving a book in their faces won't necessarily make them suddenly be interested in it and buy it.
It seems clear from what I've heard there and elsewhere that people nowadays won't be interested in Traveller unless it changes in focus and style. Again, this is where TNE:1248 could make a big difference.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Um, you do know that a hell of a lot more people went to see the Lord of the Rings trilogy than saw the Matrix trilogy, right?
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Hi !
Ok. We're at entry 308 now in this thread.
Does anybody has an oversight about the actual answers to the basic question of the topic ?
Ok, I guess T20 surely was one thing to get quite a few
. Perhaps GURPS Traveller did good work here, too.
Appearently we have a majority of people (like myself) owning and playing Traveller (any release) using the OTU or slightly modified versions. And those people are quite happy. Otherwise they would have left Traveller behind and might not be a CotI-memeber anymore.
To proceed in this topic we might actually need thoughts of people, who do NOT play Traveller.
Does anybody know busy boards about SFRPGs in general ?
Regards,
Mert
Ok. We're at entry 308 now in this thread.
Does anybody has an oversight about the actual answers to the basic question of the topic ?
Ok, I guess T20 surely was one thing to get quite a few
Appearently we have a majority of people (like myself) owning and playing Traveller (any release) using the OTU or slightly modified versions. And those people are quite happy. Otherwise they would have left Traveller behind and might not be a CotI-memeber anymore.
To proceed in this topic we might actually need thoughts of people, who do NOT play Traveller.
Does anybody know busy boards about SFRPGs in general ?
Regards,
Mert
M
Malenfant
Guest
Well, if you look at the link at the very first post of the thread, that's exactly what I asked about on rpgnet, and why I asked it...
It got over 10 pages of useful responses, which was quite impressive
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Yep. Will have a look.
Besides:
Do you sleep sometimes ?
Besides:
Do you sleep sometimes ?
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Pardon a mere Baron's intrusion, most gracious Lords...
I think a large part of the failing of Science Fiction is utter crap like the Matrix. Mediocrity routinely is passed of as "Awesome" when it is actually redundant, self-derived poo.
Pick up a copy of the "Science Fiction Writers Marketplace and Sourcebook" and see for yourself. The only advice they give is to write like someone else, one of the Greats, either that or apply yourself to "Genre" work, like "Military Sci Fi" or "Cyberpunk" or such... its things like that that stomp all over imagination. The snake truly eats its tail. (and I am not referring to that horrible Millenium show.)
Maybe its like that with Traveller. Maybe the pervasive cynicism and bleakness of most of the later backgrounds that makes it unappealing to the potential buyer. Reading some of them I must ask the question:
"Would I like to live in these times?"
My answer is more or less "No" for most of them, save for a background that shows the background working towards something more than Rebellion, Viruses, and whatnot. The "Just Add Darkness" formula is just that, a formula.
More focus is put on mechanics than on depth or the power of ideas, it seems to me at times. It's starting to look good, but it needs more than what it has at present to draw new players.
I think a large part of the failing of Science Fiction is utter crap like the Matrix. Mediocrity routinely is passed of as "Awesome" when it is actually redundant, self-derived poo.
Pick up a copy of the "Science Fiction Writers Marketplace and Sourcebook" and see for yourself. The only advice they give is to write like someone else, one of the Greats, either that or apply yourself to "Genre" work, like "Military Sci Fi" or "Cyberpunk" or such... its things like that that stomp all over imagination. The snake truly eats its tail. (and I am not referring to that horrible Millenium show.)
Maybe its like that with Traveller. Maybe the pervasive cynicism and bleakness of most of the later backgrounds that makes it unappealing to the potential buyer. Reading some of them I must ask the question:
"Would I like to live in these times?"
My answer is more or less "No" for most of them, save for a background that shows the background working towards something more than Rebellion, Viruses, and whatnot. The "Just Add Darkness" formula is just that, a formula.
More focus is put on mechanics than on depth or the power of ideas, it seems to me at times. It's starting to look good, but it needs more than what it has at present to draw new players.
Scarecrow
SOC-14 1K
Interesting. I've never felt that way. I'm not a math or science person. I like the possibilities of science fiction, the way it stimulates the imagination. But I don't really get into the science behind it -- nor, truthfully, do I understand a lot of it.
However, this has never stopped my enjoyment of Traveller. </font>[/QUOTE]That's fair enough and I imagine many Traveller players feel the same way. My point really is that I believe a great many potential new players do not and there is not really anything about Traveller's marketing to suggest otherwise.
As I've said several times, I believe that in order to pull in a large part of that potential audience it really needs to be seen to be totally over the top, 'awesome', 'kewel', 'roxxorz' and full of 'Badassosity'! And it's not and never should be, because it's Traveller.
And Baron, I quite agree about poor science fiction. I read Asimov's 'I, Robot' recently and I thought it was nieve, plot-hole ridden, poorly written and had dialogue that made Lucas look eloquent. If it was a movie it'd be absolutely ripped to shreds. No wonder the Will Smith vehicle resembled it in name only!
I should have realised really, I remember thinking his Foundation and Empire books were excruciatingly dull.
what?
Crow
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Ok. Very interesting stuff.
17 pages of replies there. (Even if sent by a limited no. of people)
The reply I like the most in no. 106...
So, essentially:
People, who are likely to play SFRPGs may know Traveller, but many simply dont like its rules and/or setting. Well, thats personal taste, which hardly could be discussed.
Others just miss "hip" aspects of SF, like nonotech, biotech or weird science.
Those people mostly use alternative systems (Shadowrun, Blue Planet, Fading Suns...)
Hmm satisfying those, who dislike both rules and setting would require to create a new game. Perhaps thats not an option here.
Those, who dislike the available settings could be helped by creating a new one, though I consider this to be quite a hard work and difficult without touching the basic ruleset.
There are other, who miss "hip" SF stuff. Well, this could be corrected by producing appropriate resource books and rule extensions.
Along with the complain, that Traveller is just "too big" it might be an option to create campaign bachground as "Microsettings", which are much more detailed and specific as Traveller stuff usually is (fairly abstract and wide-ranged).
Something like "Rhylanor - HighTech Adventures", dealing heavily with Nano- and CyberTech or "Mindblow - The Edge of PSI", dealing with a hyper-power PSI subculture or "Red Zone - Mutant planet", presenting a weird post apocalyse environment etc....
Trying to get new players means to be bloody commercial and to adress "the young ones". That means, it is neccessary to do exactly give people, what people want.
Is that the job of a current fanbase ?
17 pages of replies there. (Even if sent by a limited no. of people)
The reply I like the most in no. 106...
So, essentially:
People, who are likely to play SFRPGs may know Traveller, but many simply dont like its rules and/or setting. Well, thats personal taste, which hardly could be discussed.
Others just miss "hip" aspects of SF, like nonotech, biotech or weird science.
Those people mostly use alternative systems (Shadowrun, Blue Planet, Fading Suns...)
Hmm satisfying those, who dislike both rules and setting would require to create a new game. Perhaps thats not an option here.
Those, who dislike the available settings could be helped by creating a new one, though I consider this to be quite a hard work and difficult without touching the basic ruleset.
There are other, who miss "hip" SF stuff. Well, this could be corrected by producing appropriate resource books and rule extensions.
Along with the complain, that Traveller is just "too big" it might be an option to create campaign bachground as "Microsettings", which are much more detailed and specific as Traveller stuff usually is (fairly abstract and wide-ranged).
Something like "Rhylanor - HighTech Adventures", dealing heavily with Nano- and CyberTech or "Mindblow - The Edge of PSI", dealing with a hyper-power PSI subculture or "Red Zone - Mutant planet", presenting a weird post apocalyse environment etc....
Trying to get new players means to be bloody commercial and to adress "the young ones". That means, it is neccessary to do exactly give people, what people want.
Is that the job of a current fanbase ?
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I hav e been in sales for 20 years now. If you want to increase sales there is only one solution. See more people. Seeing the right people is always nice but seeing more people is always a better choice. Hell Traveller products already targets people who have been playing Traveller. Now we need to get it in other people's hands. Getting it on the shelves in Game Stores and in Gaming Sections of stores like B. Daltons and Borders is hitting your target audience. The problem is it isn't consistently there.
I found T20 by accident and I have been playing Traveller off and on for over 20 years. It should be there when I am strolling through the store. That is how you sell it.
It seems clear from what I've heard there and elsewhere that people nowadays won't be interested in Traveller unless it changes in focus and style. Again, this is where TNE:1248 could make a big difference. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]
I found T20 by accident and I have been playing Traveller off and on for over 20 years. It should be there when I am strolling through the store. That is how you sell it.
What, actual, targeted marketing and advertising doesn't matter? It's purely a case of making it visible? I doubt that.
Making it more widely available might sell a few more copies, but if people don't want to buy it then it won't help at all. The rpgnet thread seems to indicate that people aren't interested in Traveller as it stands. Shoving a book in their faces won't necessarily make them suddenly be interested in it and buy it.
It seems clear from what I've heard there and elsewhere that people nowadays won't be interested in Traveller unless it changes in focus and style. Again, this is where TNE:1248 could make a big difference. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]
