Why don't new people play Traveller?

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Evo Plurion:
Nor is there anything stopping us. In order to create our own RPG universes, do we need more than a basic set of rules for game mechanics? Can't we invent our own methods of travel, our own alien species, our own political and cultural backdrop?

Originally posted by Bhoins:
But if you want to build your generic universe for your generic RPG then again go ahead. If you live within the limitations that there is no FTL coms and the Jump Drive is the way to FTL travel then you can use Traveller. If you want FTL coms you can fudge those easily enough. All you have to do now is design the physics of FTL travel for the way you want to play. Nothing else on your list is a limitation of the system it is a feature of the OTU and not even a limitation of the OTU.

Well fine. So if you're going to make your own sf universes, then why should anyone use Traveller to do it instead of GURPS Space, Star HERO, D20Future, or anything else that is actually a purpose built generic sf system?

You seem to miss major point about those books - they provide all the alternatives and all the options to make the GM's life easier. Anyone can come up with their own setting from scratch, but that's rather like saying that if you want a car you have to not only build it from all the parts, but you also have to build the parts themselves. Most people - due to lack of time or inclination - would rather at least have a big pile of parts from which to build their setting, than have to come up with everything themselves.

Traveller doesn't provide that. Sticking with the car analogy, it's rather like being given a fully-built car, and then disassembling it down to the framework and rebuilding it to what you want. If you're going to that hassle, then you're arguably better off just building a totally new car from scratch - ie using a truly generic sf game.

But again, my question is - why use Traveller to make your own sf background instead of any other game? So far, it doesn't sound like many people actually use it for that (the most I've ever used Traveller for in my own games was using the rules from the WBH and FF&S to build the worlds and ships in my own GURPS Space setting).

 

[Malenfant]

Actually an Ancient race isn't a limitation it is a feature. They don't play a major role in the actual game just a minor role in the background.

Regardless, it's still something that separates Traveller from say Heavy Gear, or Transhuman Space. It still makes it specific.

Neither is having defined races. Just because there are 6 "major" races and lots of specific minor ones doesn't mean you can't have others.

True, but there's nothing provided in the rules that allow you to come up with those races, and there's nothing that helps you picture what would happen if certain major races were removed (becuase if you did that, it wouldn't be the OTU). Maybe Traveller needs an "alien race creation" book or something (like GURPS Aliens or GURPS Uplift). But right now, you're on your own if you want to create your own alien races for the game (especially from a game mechanics point of view).

 

[Evo Plurion]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
...why should anyone use Traveller to do it instead of GURPS Space, Star HERO, D20Future, or anything else that is actually a purpose built generic sf system?

You seem to miss major point about those books - they provide all the alternatives and all the options to make the GM's life easier. Anyone can come up with their own setting from scratch, but that's rather like saying that if you want a car you have to not only build it from all the parts, but you also have to build the parts themselves. Most people - due to lack of time or inclination - would rather at least have a big pile of parts from which to build their setting, than have to come up with everything themselves.

Traveller doesn't provide that. Sticking with the car analogy, it's rather like being given a fully-built car, and then disassembling it down to the framework and rebuilding it to what you want. If you're going to that hassle, then you're arguably better off just building a totally new car from scratch - ie using a truly generic sf game.

But again, my question is - why use Traveller to make your own sf background instead of any other game? So far, it doesn't sound like many people actually use it for that (the most I've ever used Traveller for in my own games was using the rules from the WBH and FF&S to build the worlds and ships in my own GURPS Space setting).

Because I started with Traveller in 1980 and I've enjoyed the OTU and the rules since then - especially MT. I love hard SF and Traveller has always leaned more toward hard SF than other games. When I feel like playing in the OTU, I use it. When I feel like playing in my own creations (which tend to be hard SF), Traveller provides a fine set of basic rules with which to do it. I have no problem adapting them to my own universe. If Traveller doesn't provide a particular rule or template for something I need, I invent it. And I haven't bought into the notion that I need to buy separate game systems to run different types of games. IMHO, there's no such thing as an RPG system which can't be adapted to different settings within its overall genre (fantasy, SF, etc.).

So if you prefer GURPS or D20 Future for your own SFRPG creations, so be it. But don't try to tell me that Traveller limits my options. I don't let it limit me at all. Why should any of us?

 

[Evo Plurion]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
...why should anyone use Traveller to do it instead of GURPS Space, Star HERO, D20Future, or anything else that is actually a purpose built generic sf system?

You seem to miss major point about those books - they provide all the alternatives and all the options to make the GM's life easier. Anyone can come up with their own setting from scratch, but that's rather like saying that if you want a car you have to not only build it from all the parts, but you also have to build the parts themselves. Most people - due to lack of time or inclination - would rather at least have a big pile of parts from which to build their setting, than have to come up with everything themselves.

Traveller doesn't provide that. Sticking with the car analogy, it's rather like being given a fully-built car, and then disassembling it down to the framework and rebuilding it to what you want. If you're going to that hassle, then you're arguably better off just building a totally new car from scratch - ie using a truly generic sf game.

But again, my question is - why use Traveller to make your own sf background instead of any other game? So far, it doesn't sound like many people actually use it for that (the most I've ever used Traveller for in my own games was using the rules from the WBH and FF&S to build the worlds and ships in my own GURPS Space setting).

Because I started with Traveller in 1980 and I've enjoyed the OTU and the rules since then - especially MT. I love hard SF and Traveller has always leaned more toward hard SF than other games. When I feel like playing in the OTU, I use it. When I feel like playing in my own creations (which tend to be hard SF), Traveller provides a fine set of basic rules with which to do it. I have no problem adapting them to my own universe. If Traveller doesn't provide a particular rule or template for something I need, I invent it. And I haven't bought into the notion that I need to buy separate game systems to run different types of games. IMHO, there's no such thing as an RPG system which can't be adapted to different settings within its overall genre (fantasy, SF, etc.).

So if you prefer GURPS or D20 Future for your own SFRPG creations, so be it. But don't try to tell me that Traveller limits my options. I don't let it limit me at all. Why should any of us?

 

[Evo Plurion]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
...why should anyone use Traveller to do it instead of GURPS Space, Star HERO, D20Future, or anything else that is actually a purpose built generic sf system?

You seem to miss major point about those books - they provide all the alternatives and all the options to make the GM's life easier. Anyone can come up with their own setting from scratch, but that's rather like saying that if you want a car you have to not only build it from all the parts, but you also have to build the parts themselves. Most people - due to lack of time or inclination - would rather at least have a big pile of parts from which to build their setting, than have to come up with everything themselves.

Traveller doesn't provide that. Sticking with the car analogy, it's rather like being given a fully-built car, and then disassembling it down to the framework and rebuilding it to what you want. If you're going to that hassle, then you're arguably better off just building a totally new car from scratch - ie using a truly generic sf game.

But again, my question is - why use Traveller to make your own sf background instead of any other game? So far, it doesn't sound like many people actually use it for that (the most I've ever used Traveller for in my own games was using the rules from the WBH and FF&S to build the worlds and ships in my own GURPS Space setting).

Because I started with Traveller in 1980 and I've enjoyed the OTU and the rules since then - especially MT. I love hard SF and Traveller has always leaned more toward hard SF than other games. When I feel like playing in the OTU, I use it. When I feel like playing in my own creations (which tend to be hard SF), Traveller provides a fine set of basic rules with which to do it. I have no problem adapting them to my own universe. If Traveller doesn't provide a particular rule or template for something I need, I invent it. And I haven't bought into the notion that I need to buy separate game systems to run different types of games. IMHO, there's no such thing as an RPG system which can't be adapted to different settings within its overall genre (fantasy, SF, etc.).

So if you prefer GURPS or D20 Future for your own SFRPG creations, so be it. But don't try to tell me that Traveller limits my options. I don't let it limit me at all. Why should any of us?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Evo Plurion:
So if you prefer GURPS or D20 Future for your own SFRPG creations, so be it. But don't try to tell me that Traveller limits my options. I don't let it limit me at all. Why should any of us?

If you'll notice the title of this thread, it's "why don't new people play Traveller". So far I've not heard a good reason as to why lots of new people should use Traveller to make their own sf backgrounds instead of GURPS Space or anything else.

You want to use it because that's what you've used to for 24 years? Great. That ain't going to attract new people though. When CT came out, there was no generic scifi system to compare it to. Today we have many purpose-built generic systems, which can generally support a much wider range of sf settings than Traveller can.

So again I ask - what does Traveller offer to someone who wants to make their own sf background that GURPS Space, Star HERO, d20 Future and other similar games don't? Right now, it seems to offer a specific, broad background into which many - but not all - scifi settings would just happen to fit. But if I want to make my own sf background, then the one provided in the Traveller books are irrelevant, are they not? And beyond that, I get no support in building my own setting.

Now if I want a setting that's like the OTU, then Traveller is great. But people don't seem to be wanting that sort of thing anymore. Sure, they want Firefly RPGs and Honor Harrington RPGs, and both could fit into the Traveller setting, but if they did that then a good deal would have to change about the OTU to accomodate it. And look at what QLI are doing - they're (sensibly) making a separate setting book for HH that generally uses the same rules as T20 and the OTU - not just shoehorning it straight into the OTU - because people probably wouldn't buy it they took the latter approach and touted it as an HH-like setting in the OTU.

If Traveller is to be truly generic, then if I had control over it I think I would first provide the pure core of the system with no specifics in the corebook (chargen, combat, skills, etc), and then provide sections or books on coming up with technology (like FF&S, and including all the biotech, nanotech, AI and cybernetics options), creating alien races (like GURPS Aliens), creating systems (like GT:First In or WBH), and creating settings (like GURPS Space). While some of them have been released for one version or another, it's not all been done for one single version of the game. That gives you the generic core on which to build.

Then the actual, pre-defined settings like the OTU or 1248 or 2320AD or HH should be released as separate books entirely, with all the above already explicitly explained and defined in them for that specific setting.

This is the kind of approach that QLI are doing, in a way. Though this is generally good, I think the problem here is that (a) although they have very good reasons for not doing so, they're not getting the stuff out on the shelves fast enough to keep people's attention on the game, (b) the corebook isn't generic enough to apply to any setting without changing bits of it (eg races, tech assumptions, history etc), and (c) there's no indication that T20 is evolving into a more generic form.

 

[Evo Plurion]

You're assuming that the reason many new players aren't attracted to Traveller is because it's not a generic system. How do you know? Maybe it's simply because SFRPGs aren't as popular as fantasy RPGs and therefore are not as broadly marketed.

You're also repeating the same question everytime someone suggests an answer or a different viewpoint.

Finally, you're continuing to insist that Traveller somehow limits a player's options:

Today we have many purpose-built generic systems, which can generally support a much wider range of sf settings than Traveller can.

No RPG system can limit my ability to create an alternate setting. Using GURPS, D20 Future or any other system, I could develop just as compelling a campaign as I could with Traveller.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Evo Plurion:
You're assuming that the reason many new players aren't attracted to Traveller is because it's not a generic system. How do you know? Maybe it's simply because SFRPGs aren't as popular as fantasy RPGs and therefore are not as broadly marketed.

No, I'm saying that they don't need to get Traveller if they want a generic system. Because (a) it isn't generic and (b) there are now other systems out there that do it better (ie are more versatile and cover more options).

It's often been said that "Traveller started off as a generic system and you can do anything with it" and that this is one of the good things about Traveller. Except it's not actually true. And people generally can see that and so turn to other things like GURPS Space etc if they want to make their own backgrounds.

You're also repeating the same question everytime someone suggests an answer or a different viewpoint.

That's because I'm not getting an answer to my actual question. For example, when I asked "what is there to attract people to Traveller to make their own sf settings" you replied "becaue that's what I've been using since 1980". That's not a relevant answer.

Finally, you're continuing to insist that Traveller somehow limits a player's options:

That's because it does. I can't run a biotech-based setting (a la Transhuman Space) using the Traveller book, because there are no rules, guidelines, or advice presented in the book to do that. And while there are some cybernetics rules in the T20 book, they are very limited and don't cover most of the traditional cyberpunk options, and again there's no support for running that style of game. Maybe I can come up with my own, but if Traveller is supposed to support all the options for scifi then why should I have to? Clearly it doesn't support all the options - it supports a specific background and a specific kind of game.

No RPG system can limit my ability to create an alternate setting. Using GURPS, D20 Future or any other system, I could develop just as compelling a campaign as I could with Traveller. [/qb]

Yes, but with the other systems you'll have a hell of a lot more help from the books and the published material than you would with Traveller. And that's what people want in generic games - material that helps them to create what they want. Which is why when they want to do that, they turn to other games like GURPS Space instead of Traveller - and I think that is part of the reason why new people aren't picking up Traveller. T20 does cover a lot of things, sure, and some of those things it does very well - but does it offer enough compared to the competition? I don't think it does, as it stands.

 

[kafka47]

Posted by daryen (CID # 447) on September 26, 2004 10:32 PM:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Robert Prior:
The Imperium started out as a remote government, but it gradually became interventionist as more was written. Personally, I blame both the tendency of authors to want to add something (which led to a proliferation of Imperial agencies, laws, and precedents), and also a tendency of many authors to portray the Imperium as America in Space.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course you can place a huge portion of the blame for this at the feet of the vaunted DGP. They were the primary movers and shakers who took it as their mission to make sure there was no corner of the OTU that was not mapped, charted, and described. As for the "Yanks in Space" syndrome, they flat out admitted they intentionally did this in WBH.

Well, I am not entirely convinced that every asteroid or every system was meant to be Charted in Chartered Space in the DGP scheme of things.

Plus, I don't think the Imperium is as grand as Daryen would make it be. It sets the framework for the laws and expects local governments to enact similar laws if membership is to be retained. Granted there are Super-Ministries mentioned in GT: Nobles which I have yet to read but these act as co-ordinating councils IMTU.

It is quite possible for many worlds to not really explore their own backyard...this is one of the consquence of the Jump Drive, why explore a System when the Mainworlds are only parsecs away. Conversely, on almost any given world there are vast tracks of wilderness that need development. The higher the tech, the more the planet may actually insulate itself from Nature prefering the likes of grav cities in the equatorial zones perhaps or even arcologies in the most scenic places...leaving vast tracks to be unexplored...plus, what is the average TL for the Imperium as a whole not what is the TL for the Imperium and I will suspect that number is on the low side therefore leaving lots of room for adventure and intrigue.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
No, I'm saying that they don't need to get Traveller if they want a generic system. Because (a) it isn't generic and (b) there are now other systems out there that do it better (ie are more versatile and cover more options).

It's often been said that "Traveller started off as a generic system and you can do anything with it" and that this is one of the good things about Traveller. Except it's not actually true. And people generally can see that and so turn to other things like GURPS Space etc if they want to make their own backgrounds.

I think the problem is that we are using the term "generic system" in different ways. The original Traveller was "generic" in that there was no setting implied or enforced in the game. (This did change when the authors tried to meet the demands of the market at the time.) But it was never truly generic in the sense of GURPS Space, where you could mix-n-match your technologies and even your base assumptions.

Traveller leaves you free to either pick the OTU or not, and it leaves you free to pick how "cinematic" you want the game to be. But it does impose certain assumptions (e.g. jump, "2D space", etc) on the game.

If you want a truly generic science fiction game system, then don't pick Traveller. Pick GURPS Space or some other already existant system.

That's because I'm not getting an answer to my actual question. For example, when I asked "what is there to attract people to Traveller to make their own sf settings" you replied "becaue that's what I've been using since 1980". That's not a relevant answer.

Actually, I thought the original question was "Why don't new people play Traveller?"

Here is the answer to that question: Get the game as it is out there, in the stores. Give it publicity, flashy graphics. Meet the presentation expectations of the modern gaming audience.

That will give you the best chance to pick up new gamers.

And, quite frankly, I think QLI is doing as good a job as they can on this front, considering the shoestring budget they have to operate under. They are working on "fixing" some of the rules (with the player's handbook) and have a, quite frankly, rather comprehensive settings explanation book (Gateway). If they could just translate several of those TAs into paper, it would give them a chance for some real shelf space.

What will NOT work is trying to reshape Traveller to be something other than Traveller. As someone has already mentioned (scarecrow, I think), Traveller is what it is. I think we need to accept that, and work to spread that.

Is it everyone's cup of tea? Well, obviously not. But there are still lots of people that don't want to play a character who can tackle and defeat and entire droid army despite losing his lightsaber. Make sure they can find Traveller, and you will continue to get new players.

 

[flykiller]

First posting.

welcome aboard.

It is the job of the ref to entice new travellers with the pure joy of the novelty of our game. ... Bring the magic, be the facilitator of the wonder, they'll come.

right on. every new game is an exciting new direction.

 

[Michael Taylor]

Quote: "This is the kind of approach that QLI are doing, in a way. Though this is generally good, I think the problem here is that (a) although they have very good reasons for not doing so, they're not getting the stuff out on the shelves fast enough to keep people's attention on the game,"
This is not fair - I devote every spare minute I have outside my job and family to writing for QLI. So far, since February this year (and with a 2 month break in Aug and Sept) I have written 5 Epics and 1 TA for QLI, with more to come. If you are asking me to do more - which you obviously are - then I'm afraid I cannot devote any more time to this labour of love called QLI.
This has hopefully taken some pressure off MJD so he can concentrate on what he does best - the grand sweep of the sourcebooks. Remember that T20 is a fledging RPG Pocket Empire. But if more people volunteered and then actually *followed through* on their promises to MJD and actually *wrote* (and more importantly *finished*) decent material for the Epic and TA line, there would naturally be more material to post on the website and get into the stores.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by kafka47:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Posted by daryenOf course you can place a huge portion of the blame for this at the feet of the vaunted DGP. They were the primary movers and shakers who took it as their mission to make sure there was no corner of the OTU that was not mapped, charted, and described. As for the "Yanks in Space" syndrome, they flat out admitted they intentionally did this in WBH.

Well, I am not entirely convinced that every asteroid or every system was meant to be Charted in Chartered Space in the DGP scheme of things.</font>[/QUOTE]OK, I overstated this. No, they did not truly try to map every corner of every system. They did, however, try to "map" every system. They pumped out vast quantities unchecked UWPs from Regina to Terra, whether they were need or not.

DGP did do a lot of really good stuff. GS/GC and their child WBH were very good and very useful. From what I understand (I have never seen it), SOM was wonderful (though the Beowolf floorplans, which I have seen, are not good). But they also provided lots of clunkers, both in sloppy editing and in trying to provide those unchecked UWPs. (And weren't they the ones who gave us a large number of TL16 worlds in one of the central Imperial sectors?)

Plus, I don't think the Imperium is as grand as Daryen would make it be.

Uh, unless I am misinterpretting this comment, I haven't commented on how "grand" the Imperium was. Remember, I am one of the ones that would just as soon see an OTU "reboot" so that it can be scaled back and given an actual frontier.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
This is not fair - I devote every spare minute I have outside my job and family to writing for QLI. [/QB]

You'll note that I said "although they have very good reasons for not doing so".

I'm not denigrating the job that QLI have been doing, and I'm not saying you should put more time into it. What I'm saying is that QLI have had a total of three Traveller books out on the shelves, and one was a hardcopy of a PDF product. Hunter explained why this is the case, and it's a perfectly valid reason, but that doesn't change the fact that the releases have been coming pretty far apart. There's not much that QLI can do about that, but it is a problem when it comes to keeping people's attention on the line.

So no offence was intended... sorry if you took it.

 

[Michael Taylor]

I don't take offense to anything - I was just pointing out that I am working hard to ensure the situation improves.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
Quote: "This is the kind of approach that QLI are doing, in a way. Though this is generally good, I think the problem here is that (a) although they have very good reasons for not doing so, they're not getting the stuff out on the shelves fast enough to keep people's attention on the game,"
This is not fair - I devote every spare minute I have outside my job and family to writing for QLI. So far, since February this year (and with a 2 month break in Aug and Sept) I have written 5 Epics and 1 TA for QLI, with more to come. If you are asking me to do more - which you obviously are - then I'm afraid I cannot devote any more time to this labour of love called QLI.

Note what the quote said: "... out on the shelves ..." No one is critisizing you or QLI for not producing material. (Actually, the quoted person wasn't critisizing QLI for anything.) They were simply lamenting the lack of T20 material on the store shelves.

I think everyone understands that QLI is a small concern and that publishing lots of items takes money that QLI just doesn't have. But, if it is to enter the general gaming "consciousness" it needs to be in print and on shelves. Yes, that is a bit of a catch-22 situation, but there you are.

But if more people volunteered and then actually *followed through* on their promises to MJD and actually *wrote* (and more importantly *finished*) decent material for the Epic and TA line, there would naturally be more material to post on the website and get into the stores.

Well, my ability to write adventures is approximately zero. When I GMed, I let the players wander and I did a lot of "winging it". (Too bad I lost all of my notes a long time ago.)

However, I am involved in areas I am able to contribute with, but my stuff is way down the queue.

 

[Spinward Scout]

But again, my question is - why use Traveller to make your own sf background instead of any other game?

I used the background of Charted Space for the game I was working on, starting at year 1111, and I went from there, making it my own. Emperor Strephon is still Emperor, and the Fifth Frontier War happened, but then I start to diverge and it was really comfortable to have a ready made background to work from. Granted, I still don't like the way Jump works and I started to introduce His Majesty's Secret Research Projects, that Strephon had been sponsoring in the background:

a Jump Multi-inductor that multiplies your Jump distance

a Star Transceiver that operates like a TL 6 telegraph.

Immortality Drugs - doubles, triples, or quadruples lifespan

Starship Shields

Plasma Blasters

Miniaturized Drives

Increased Fuel Efficiency

Yes, so it's no longer Traveller, but what a grand history to base MY story around.

Later,

Scout

 

[jasper]

ok my problems with classic traveller was not enough modules. Most newbies dms and players like having preprinted adventures as crutch so they can play in the game and learn the rules.
How about a series of modules which take your pc from first to 20th level. Traveller seem to me to be here is ranking on the poker hands from the Hoyle card deck. It was up to the players to come up with rules for 5 card draw, 7 card stud, indian forehead bluff.

Also look at scific from 1982 + what new sci did we had which improve the market.
Rehash of star trek, different director editions of star wars, b5 the only original one, Stargate bad scific which got a series, Farscape again soft science with story taking over science.
The othe scific did not last long or are not consider scific. Firefly, Small ville etc.
Plus not much marketing and old farts goobers chasing off new blood. Remind me to tell you about the battle tech bounce story later.
Has anyone address my posting from about page 15 ?

 

[Madarin Dude]

One of the things that I always thought diminished traveller a bit was that Earth was not the basis for humanity. Earth was occupied by other powers and I woudl perfer a universe that would have earth as the center of an Empire. Perhaps a Rule of Man setting would be what I would like, 2nd Imperium. But without the background material it is still a no go. (just a mention in Traveller history not enough)

 

[kurtis]

</lurk>
The esteemed Loren Wiseman is developing an Interstellar Wars period setting for GT. Just a matter of time.
<lurk>