Why don't new people play Traveller?

[BetterThanLife]

You want new people to play Traveller. The solution seems obvious to me. Get the books on the shelves.

Get the Players Handbook on the shelves so it is a stand alone product. (So I don't need to buy D&D or other D20 books.) Then get the whole product on the shelves in more places. Get it on the shelves at the local game stores. Get it on the shelves at Borders, Waldenbooks, B. Daltons. Not just occasionally, all the time, not just some of them, all of them.

For example, the South Bend, IN area has 3 game stores, a Borders, a B. Daltons, 2 Wal-Marts, 3 Meijers, 2 K-Marts, 2 Targets and a host of lesser stores. T-20 occasionally is on the shelves at one of the game stores. (And always the same one which isn't the most popular game store of the 3.) Borders, B. Daltons and the other two game stores will order it for you, but if it isn't there for you to look for it, it won't get ordered either. What good is excellent Cover Art if it isn't getting exposure?

The requirement to buy the book plus another book that isn't related is a pain which the Traveller's Players Book will allieviate. Though I think the THB may be why there is a D20 Future now. After all the THB is why I own a copy of D20 Modern.

Since it is one of the most popular games in the history of RPGs then it should be fairly easy to sell the idea to put it on the shelves.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by daryen:
"Imperial culture today is remarkably similar to that of the pre-jump humans on Terra. Many worlds still show their peculiarities, of course (especially those at lower tech levels) - but for all practical purposes, the general mindset of the Imperial population traces its roots back to old Earth, before the contact with the Vilani of the First Imperium in -2422." WBH p.9

Why, thank you, daryen!

I read that maybe 1.5 years ago. About 1 year ago, I was wondering where I'd read it, and I searched and searched through all my TU books, all to no avail, because I wasn't looking in the right place.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel: Except that isn't likely to happen, at least around our games . . .
<snip>

I don't know. I have had a character ask, hey what are ancients and they were pointed at the right page in the Imperial Encyclopedia . . .
<snip>
. . . but to answer the general question it is a wonderful format.

</font>[/QUOTE]I am, personally, behind you 100%. I like all the Library Data encyclopedia style entries all over published materials. but that's the whole point, I've already "bought into" Traveller. I hardly need convincing, for I am the choir.

But my claims and advocacy are directed at the new generation of players who are not, on their own, picking up modern Traveller products (in large enough numbers to make our collective egos feel good and the ledgers of QLI, FFE, and SJG all read like they'll want to print a couple of dozen more sourcebooks) off the shelves and going out and becoming hooked. "Encyclopedia-Type" information delivery is one of the things we believe we have identified (it got mentioned a couple of times by ex-Travellers over on RPG.net) as a "negative" factor in determining whether such naescent players pick up Traveller for good.

Which is why I'd like any core-Worldbook of the OTU to completely avoid all Library Entry type formatting. To go so far and produce a slick top notch book, only to throw back to the old (though personally liked) formatting, it would be, I feel, a mistake.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
<snip>
So maybe its difficult to talk about "maturity" at this place anyway....

<snip>

Apparently, we share similar opinions on the subject.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by hunter:
Dave didn't tell anyone what he had planned.

Many former Traveller fans have been lured back to the fold, maybe yet Dave will decide, on his own, to return. Even if not at the head of the company, he certainly seemed to have an ocean of good ideas and the will to develop them.

 

[etherflyer]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Which is why I'd like any core-Worldbook of the OTU to completely avoid all Library Entry type formatting. To go so far and produce a slick top notch book, only to throw back to the old (though personally liked) formatting, it would be, I feel, a mistake.

I liked the library data format, but not as a way of learning new material. Just as one doesn't learn about the USA only from an encyclopedia...

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by spank:
The Reformation Coalition, What will be know as the Freedom League

Then, in the tradition of Mr. Larsen Whipsnade and his grand Wounded Colossus variant MT-assassination storyline, you could look through the TNE:1248, identify the bits you don't like, and then post to the web (and here, and the TML, etc.) your pro-RC version. Then watch as all those who share your feelings pick up and use your version instead of the official one . . .

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And with this statement, you lose all credibility and sound like a frothy pro-CT nutbag fundamentalist. Your setting? What sense of ownership do you think you have here? Are you one of the TNE authors? Did you actually write some of the books? How the heck can you be justified in calling it your setting??

Originally posted by Malenfant:
<snip>
So bloody what?
<snip>
. . . and frankly it's embarrassing to hear it.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
<snip>
What the hell have you got to be so bitter about anyway? Were you this twisted when GDW closed its doors? Did you think they'd spitefully defied your will by daring to go out of business and not produce any more books?
<snip>

Originally posted by Malenfant:
<snip>
spank is just like those old CT grogs . . . He's exactly the type of person who is holding Traveller back . . . I think that's a blatantly immature and selfish attitude to take.
<snip>

Hmmm, I wish I'd been around to comment a little earlier, but, here goes.


I too sort of blinked my eyes at the "my setting" comment. Honestly though, the claim (and the succeeding responses) did not merit these responses. Especially the name-calling. Are we really reduced to that here?

Well, in many cases, yes we are, but I was hoping things would improve.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
. . . Thankfully though, you're not in a position to do anything about it.

Actually, he is in a position to do something about it.

</font>

• Stop spending money on the game.</font>
• Encourage fellow gamers to avoid Traveller.</font>
• Spread stories about getting attacked on CotI.</font>

One more spark of passion about the game may die out . . .

Originally posted by Malenfant:
. . . is just like those old CT grogs . . .

You mean, like me? <blushes> Aw, shucks! You shouldn't'a've!

 

[Malenfant]

Who's "name-calling"? I called him selfish and immature, because that's exactly how he's coming across. Plus he's spouting all of his opinions based on nothing but ignorance since he hasn't even read the TNE:1248 material that is available and has been for many months now.

Clearly, publishers can't satisfy everyone. I've always said he doesn't have to like it and nothing's forcing him to stop playing his version of TNE and take it wherever he wants it to go. Same goes for any version of Traveller. But to respond like he did when he hadn't even read the material, was just utterly ridiculous, and it's sheer nonsense to claim it's "his" setting. You really expect me to believe that sort of behaviour is indicative of a mature attitude?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Malenfant: Who's "name-calling"? I called him selfish and immature . . .

The question is answered.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
. . . because that's exactly how he's coming across.

And I say, so what? I am arguing for restraint in such matters, not requesting justification.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Plus he's . . . his opinions based on
nothing but ignorance since he hasn't even read the TNE:1248 material that is available and has been for many months now.
<snip>
But to respond like he did when he hadn't even read the material, was just utterly ridiculous, and it's sheer nonsense to claim it's "his" setting. You really expect me to believe that sort of behaviour is indicative of a mature attitude?

Well, I said what I said to get my opinion out.

I feel that the faux pas made by making claims about the TNE:1248 setting that were not true was not the same faux pas made by an apparent declaration of personal ownership of the original TNE setting (somehow, I feel that isn't what sparks meant by "my setting").

Others responded as well, but none quite so, forcefully.

I think that was a lot to face over what, to me, seemed like a couple of small missteps.


No one shot me when it turned out, 150 post into the CSSP main thread, that I'd misidentified which Charted Space location Spica was in. I was thiking it was the sector that Leonidae occupies. By mistake, I'd looked down the wrong row when first looking up Spica, and made a whole series of bad assumptions (leading to a number of completely and totally irrelevant postings and claims on my part).

 

[mike wightman]

I don't think spank was claiming to "own" the TNE setting - just express his opinion that he has developed the game he runs in a certain direction and that 1248 will make a lot of that obsolete.
In much the same way that MT flattened many people's CT campaigns, and TNE obliterated the MT crowd
This upsets some people, and rightly so.

But we want people to buy into the new setting.

How can this be best achieved?

By calmly explaining the potential that 1248 offers (go get the playtest - it is excellent).

Any advancement of the Traveller future history is going to cause waves, but the reward for switching to the new setting is that Traveller is moving forward again, and don't forget Flynn's signature (and its original author):

"We will lay out the 1248 New Era without hiding great setting-changing events or dropping vague hints about them. You can go forward from this point without fear of a great hammer smashing your campaign flat in 2 years' time or whatever."-MJD

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

In order to be productive and to show the rich background of "our" Traveller I thought about a multi-setting adventure series.
What do I mean ?
There was once an article in a Traveller magazin (I do not remember which) about "Timers", people who spend most of the time in cold sleep, and thus "wandering" through the time.
Now I was thinking about a large heavily automated starship, occupied by a community of those people making their journey through different remarkable periods of the TU. E.g. Long Night, Mileu 0, Classic, Rebellion, TNE and finally reaching 1248+.
That might be stuff to get to know the TU and its history a bit better finally ending (?) in the most actual period of Traveller.
It might also be a way to transfer favorit PCs to a new setting...
IMHO that might be a way to show people the 4 dimensional nature of Traveller. Its not just one setting. Its a history.

Is there something similar out there or would it be worth a try ?

Again, just a thought..

 

[mike wightman]

The adventure that "I saw advertised but never saw print" which intrigued me the most was proposed by GDW for the MT rules.
The premiss was a group of people/military from the Interstellar Wars period are forced to enter cold sleep to wait for a cure to their plague/radiation poisoning or whatever.
Every few centuries a small group would be woken to investigate the current state of play and see if a cure was available.

I don't think I dreamed the advert...

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
[QB] I don't think spank was claiming to "own" the TNE setting - just express his opinion that he has developed the game he runs in a certain direction and that 1248 will make a lot of that obsolete.

In much the same way that MT flattened many people's CT campaigns, and TNE obliterated the MT crowd

This upsets some people, and rightly so.

And I can't see how they're remotely justified in being upset.

Nothing prevents them from continuing to run the game in the direction they choose. Is this a difficult concept to grasp? OK, they don't have the support of published material, but so what? It's not like anyone's had "official support" for the past ten years for TNE anyway!

There's this crazy attitude that seems to be peculiar to Traveller that if an official book is written on a subject then that somehow renders any work someone has done on their own campaign invalid. That's just ridiculous. Nobody forces you to use the book. If anyone complains about it in your games, you just say "well, I ain't using it".

When WW's Mage Revised came out, they completely changed the direction and focus of the game. I didn't like the new focus at all. But it sure as hell didn't stop me from shrugging and carrying on running my own campaigns as I'd always done. I didn't get any more Mage books, but I had all I wanted from the Second Edition anyway.

You don't need to buy books to continue to play the game the way you want. Which part of that is so hard for some people to grasp in this community? The books that the various Traveller publishers release are made to support the OTU - not your own TU. If you make the decision to follow the OTU no matter what, then you should accept that it's going to go in directions you may like or you may not like and that you usually will have little control over where it's taken - and if you don't like that, then you have to decide whether you want to swallow it and continue with the OTU or diverge from it into your own TU. But throwing a strop over it isn't remotely useful for anybody.

So let's say 1248 turns out to be wildly different to what you had in mind. Then you basically have the choice of either not buying it and ignoring it and continuing as you are, or buying it to mine for some ideas but not using it as it is, or shrugging your shoulders and accepting it and buying it and using it as is. Again, this is not a difficult concept to grasp, and it's largely pointless to throw a tantrum and make yourself look silly over it. If you don't want to buy it, then don't buy it and carry on doing what you've always done - if nothing else, you've saved some money.

Because if we have to go through this sort of thing every time someone writes a new Traveller book that contradicts what someone's done in their own TU then this is going to get crazy. This is what I mean by some fans holding back the game - publishers shouldn't have to tread on eggshells because some people are too shortsighted to see that the OTU and their TU can actually be different.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:

The question is answered.

If I was name-calling, I'd have just come straight out and called him an "idiot" - and I didn't do that. If I'm not allowed to use any kind of adjective that describes the impression I got from what he said then that doesn't bode well for discussion. I thought what he said was selfish and immature, how else am I supposed to describe it? It sure doesn't strike me as "thoughtful" or "wise".

I feel that the faux pas made by making claims about the TNE:1248 setting that were not true was not the same faux pas made by an apparent declaration of personal ownership of the original TNE setting (somehow, I feel that isn't what sparks meant by "my setting").

Others responded as well, but none quite so, forcefully.

I think that was a lot to face over what, to me, seemed like a couple of small missteps.

If he had actually read the playtest material and said "I don't like the direction that they're taking my favourite setting, I'd have done things differently" then that would have been perfectly reasonable. But to not even read any of it and say "it's my setting, and they're doing it wrong" isn't. And I don't see why I or anyone else should let that sort of comment pass by - it's based entirely on ignorance and he has no justification in claiming that it's "his setting".

People should type exactly what they mean on discussion boards, not leave it to everyone else to guess what they mean or to give them the benefit of the doubt. But then I think spank made it pretty clear that he thought he had some sense of ownership over TNE simply because he'd paid money for it in the past. He had a chance to make himself clear and it seems to me that he did.

No one shot me when it turned out, 150 post into the CSSP main thread, that I'd misidentified which Charted Space location Spica was in. I was thiking it was the sector that Leonidae occupies. By mistake, I'd looked down the wrong row when first looking up Spica, and made a whole series of bad assumptions (leading to a number of completely and totally irrelevant postings and claims on my part).

Everyone makes mistakes like misidentifying things, and they're trivial to correct. Getting something like that wrong is not even remotely close to coming to opinions when you don't know what you're talking about, and claiming that something is "your setting". There's no excuse for that sort of thing, IMO.

 

[spank]

I read it and I have to say, I'm still waiting to be impressed. The preliminary gets a marginal thumbs down from me.

 

[spank]

I'll make my self good and clear about this. I don't like that the 1248 setting is built on top of the flattened remains of 1201, and backed with a promise not to hammer that campaign flat on down the road.

 

[clementk]

Suggestion: since spank now has the 1248 material / 1248 forum access I suggest folk move that part of the discussion to the 1248 board and/or PM since how 1248 affects existing TNE campaigns in detail doesn't have much to do IMO with examining why Traveller doesn’t get new players.

Casey

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by spank:
I'll make my self good and clear about this. I don't like that the 1248 setting is built on top of the flattened remains of 1201, and backed with a promise not to hammer that campaign flat on down the road.

Fine. Well, given that in the space of 24 hours you have apparently fully digested and appraised all the new material (not to mention all the comments on the playtest board), perhaps you could comment on what specific problems you have with the new material on the 1248 playtest board.

While your opinion will be noted, I wouldn't be too hopeful that anyone will do anything about what you want to see though, since the whole point of the exercise is to move the timeline on, and since the states in the TNE era always have been presented as being transitional and dynamic (and it's not the authors fault that you evidently completely failed to notice this) I think it's rather unreasonable to suggest that they should keep it all the same 50 years later.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
The question is answered.

If I was name-calling, I'd have just come straight out and called him an "idiot" - and I didn't do that.
</font>[/QUOTE]That is quite correct, you didn't use the word idiot. You said he sounded like a "frothy pro-CT nutbag fundamentalist", which is name-calling.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
If he had actually read the playtest material and said "I don't like the direction that they're taking my favourite setting, I'd have done things differently" then that would have been perfectly reasonable.

Not everyone is at the peak of their eloquence at all times.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And I don't see why I or anyone else should let that sort of comment pass by . . .

I never said anything about not commenting.

Technically, as a free-speech advocate, I'm even all for saying you can attack anyone in any manner you chose (as long you you don't go past the EULA for this forum, of course). However, as we look to the top of this very webpage, and see the name of this topic, the adviseability of doing so becomes . . . an interesting question.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
People should type exactly what they mean on discussion boards, not leave it to everyone else to guess what they mean or to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, that's true, but it's not going to happen here or anywhere else.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
But then I think spank made it pretty clear that he thought he had some sense of ownership over TNE simply because he'd paid money for it in the past. He had a chance to make himself clear and it seems to me that he did.

I can only say that the same interpretation did not occur to me.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
No one shot me when it turned out, 150 post into the CSSP main thread, that I'd misidentified which Charted Space location Spica was in. I was thiking it was the sector that Leonidae occupies. By mistake, I'd looked down the wrong row when first looking up Spica, and made a whole series of bad assumptions (leading to a number of completely and totally irrelevant postings and claims on my part).

Everyone makes mistakes . . .
</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, everyone does.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
There's no excuse for that sort of thing, IMO.

That's a pretty harsh stance to take given that this is supposed to be one big easy-going community of fellow gamers. You know, like Rodriguez to Blackthorne in Shogun, "We're all Pilots, and we have to stick together!" (I'm paraphrasing, I can't remember the exact quote.)