Which Traveller should I buy?

[apoc527]

Hey everyone,

Long time, no post. I find Traveller to be one of the most supported RPGs online and there is a LOT of material out there. So I have a question:

I recently came into some extra RPG money (graduation from law school...woo hoo) and I want to know what version of Traveller I should spend some money on. I bought (and subsequently sold) most of the GURPS Traveller line (I hate GURPS now, but it wasn't GT's fault per se). I own T20 (but honestly, don't like d20 for sci-fi games, though T20 is quite good actually). I also have owned (at one point, they are gone now), a bunch of T4 materials and several random supplements from MT. I also got the 2300 AD PDF for free on DTRPG.com a few years back. I think I had a copy of TNE for a while too, actually.

My real question is: is CT worth it? I can buy the Basic Books and the 13 supplements from QLI for like $47. Or I can wait for T5...or I could buy any number of PDFs from here or DriveThruRPG for MT, TNE, or whatever.

My main two RPGs right now are D&D 3.5 and Alternity (in my opinion, one of the best sci-fi RPGs produced, though it does have its issues, which is why I'm here actually). I'm awaiting the release of another game, but I've earmarked some funds for it and I'm mostly interested in getting into Traveller (quite late, I might add, given that I'm a hardcore sci-fi RPGer and have never actually played anything but a very short lived T20 campaign).

I imagine a lot of people might feel strongly one way or the other on this question, so I just ask that if you think I should buy a specific version, just briefly say why. I will say that at this point, I'm actually leaning towards CT, but not for any particular reason other than that I know there is a lot of Internet support still and a lot of people seem to love it. How well does it "show" in this modern RPG market? If I try to start a game with my regular D&D/Alternity group, will they take to it or is it likely to feel too old?

Thanks!

 

[Spinward Scout]

I got the CT Reprints (The Books, The Supplements, The Adventures, and The Short Adventures) and even if you don't want to use the system, I doubt you'll find much more extensive background in any other version. MT was reworked CT, but the background revolved around the Rebellion, TNE had the Virus and no Imperium, T4 was the beginning of the Third Imperium, GT was the alternate universe where the Emperor wasn't assasinated, and T20 was a century before that. I would think your best bet is to pick your favorite rules system (probably d20/T20 in your case since you already play it) and just add to the background with what you pick up. Alternity was a fantastic Sci-Fi game, but the system sucked to me. But it had so many great ideas! The same with GURPS - don't like the system, but the attention to detail is FANTASTIC!

The trouble is finding conversions for the different systems. If you could find a 'universal translator' then we could consolidate all of this and not have to worry about the systems.

There lies the rub...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
My real question is: is CT worth it?

There's a lot of versions of Traveller out there. You didn't mention HERO Traveller.

I own many of them.

I only play Classic Traveller.

Not only is it worth it, I think it's the only way to go.

How well does it "show" in this modern RPG market? If I try to start a game with my regular D&D/Alternity group, will they take to it or is it likely to feel too old?

If you use vanilla CT, straight out of the box, why would it feel to old? In vanilla CT, you even allow armor to make yourself harder to hit, just like D&D*.

The only thing I think they might balk at is the slow experience system. They won't be collecting experience points every game session**, and they won't be going up "levels" every other adventure.

If you think they can handle that, then there should be no problem using CT.




There's a lot of Traveller out there. A lot of choice.

I choose Classic.




*There's plenty of mods out there alter this. Try this ONE.

**Consider THIS thread.

The UGM task system can be viewed HERE.

And THIS is a good place to look when considering GMing a Classic Traveller game.

-S4

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by apoc527:
My real question is: is CT worth it? I can buy the Basic Books and the 13 supplements from QLI for like $47. Or I can wait for T5...or I could buy any number of PDFs from here or DriveThruRPG for MT, TNE, or whatever.

No doubt about it; CT is worth it.

In addition to my worn & dusty orginal printings, I own both the "BFB" (Big Floppy Book) reprints and the CD-ROMs (chock full o' PDFs), and would never part with either format. (The only thing I'll part with is the recent BT 1-3 single volume; I buy those to give away to prospective players.)

I'm going to buy lots of T5 when it comes along, but I'll always consider it just an Advanced Sourcebook for CT... which is how I've always viewed MT and T4 and GT anyway...

 

[apoc527]

That is indeed the rub. My problem isn't so much setting related. I have the Alternity setting "Star*Drive," which is good for most of my needs, and I've been kicking around a homebrew one. If neither of those fit my mood, then whatever CT has in it is perhaps what I need.

The real question is the rules. I have T20 actually, I bought one of the first printings, complete with mistakes. I'm not so much a fan of d20 for anything besides high fantasy--hence D&D 3.5 is just peachy, but d20 Modern/Future/etc. just kind of rub me the wrong way. T20 was better, but it still suffers from the same d20 problems as the rest.

What I'm really looking for is a robust game mechanic/system. I don't know if CT is that game, I've been reading on these forums and it seems like in order to be playable, it has to be heavily house-ruled. I don't have a problem doing that, but maybe MT will suit my needs better.

So, between the non-d20 and GURPS Traveller incarnations, which is best? The general consensus seems to be CT or MT, with most people not liking T4. I've seen 2300 AD and I'm not touching that combat system with a 10-in d6 attached to a 10' pole...

 

[apoc527]

Ah well, look at that. I go and reply and 3 more people interject. THanks for the feedback.

So, now that CT has been established as the definitive version, what versions should I be looking for? The CD-ROM seems like a good choice, but I'm not keen on spending a whole bunch of money and then having to print it all out myself. Then again, if they are quite printer-friendly, maybe that's a good deal. People have been mentioning the LBBs and The Traveller Book. The CD-ROM seems to be the most complete. It looks like only the 3 original LBB reprints are available from QLI...any suggestions on this front?

 

[Spinward Scout]

I've only seen The Traveller Book at GenCon (or any other convention in the Chicago area) once and that was 2001. If you're looking for collectability as well, the LBBs, The Traveller Book, or Starter Traveller is the way to go - but you may be searching for a while. Otherwise, most game stores should be able to order the Reprints pretty easily. The Reprints are the LBBs but reprinted with 8 LBBs in one book. Of course you can always try the webpage at:

Far Future

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
I don't know if CT is that game, I've been reading on these forums and it seems like in order to be playable, it has to be heavily house-ruled.

Ya know, I'm a huge CT modder. I've modded all sorts of things for CT.

But, I do it to suit a taste. CT is made to be modded. Heck, it encourages the GM to be creative.

So, I don't know if this will mean anything coming from someone who mods the heck out of CT, but I'll give it a go anyhow.

I think CT is completely playable, as-is, without modding.

Again, I mod it because it's better for me. Some games are modded because they need it. Some parts are broken (like the T4 task system--straight out of the book, it's broken).

CT, straight out of the book isn't broken. Sure, you can change things to taste, but if you play CT as written, it's a pretty doggone good rules system (albeit different from what you see in many other games).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
So, now that CT has been established as the definitive version, what versions should I be looking for?

The thing about CT is that the entire thing grew over the years. The basic game, available in either the LBBs, Starter Traveller, or The Traveller Book, is the main framework you'll need. But, there are official rules that ended up later in other sources. For example, the extended computer rules were released in the JTAS. The extended missile rules were released in a Special Supplement that was originally part of a JTAS. Zero-G rules were expanded upon in Belter. If you want a rule for how much it costs to send an X-Boat message, you'll find it in The Traveller Adventure.

See, official rules were added to the game (along with a lot of alternate and unofficial rules) as the game was played and progressed back in the 70's and early 80's.

Also note that The Traveller Book, Starter Traveller, and LBBs 1-3 all give you about 99% the same information, but there is some variance.

For example, the pulse laser rule is only in Starter Traveller. The Range Band version of Book 2 Starship combat is only in Starter Traveller as well. In LBB 1, if a character runs during the round, he is not allowed any attacks. In Starter Traveller and The Traveller Book, this was changed so that a gun combat attack is allowed, but a brawling or blade attack isn't. The Traveller Book is the only rule book of the three to have cover and concealment and extended Zero-G rules.

And, you see official rules creep up in other sources as well. Adventure 10: Safari Ship has extended hunting rules. The Traveller Adventure has an excellent write-up for the GM when creating die rolls for players. Each of the LBBs, as they progressed, would add and combine skills. Rules for learning by yourself and increasing your skills are included in the LBB 3, but if you want to speed things up and learn using an instructor, you need the rules in LBB 4.

And, if you end up getting an early version of the LBBs, you might find yourself looking at 1st edition Traveller...which has even more differences, especially in weapon damage, from the other rules sets.

What would I do if I were just starting with Classic Trav?

I would definitely, definitely get either the CD-ROM or several of the Big Floppy Books. Sure, that looks like an expensive route, but it's really not if you "get into" the game and try to hunt down everything CT you can find.

Plus, you've got all the stuff right there at your fingertips.

I'd definitely get the BFB of the LBBs, but I wouldn't neglect the three BFB's of the JTAS either. Lots, and lots, and lots of great stuff there.

 

[Supplement Four]

One neat thing about CT, though, is that, if you don't want to get all that other stuff. If you just want a taste. You can just get LBB 1-3 and, really, you have everything you need to play Classic Traveller.

Anything in addition to LBB 1-3 is really just optional rule extensions.

The least expensive way to try out Classic Traveller is to go that route.

I'd probably just buy the CD-ROM or the BFB containing LBB 1-3. If I liked it, and my game took off, I'd get more.

That's probably my best advice in answering your question.

 

[apoc527]

Color me very intrigued. You are looking at a guy who modded so many games, that my buddies started referring to the games as "Jake-XXX." For example, Cyberpunk 2020 became Jakepunk 2020. Mutant Chronicles became Mutant Jakeicles. Etc...

Anyway, modding is not a problem for me.

Here's what I'm looking for in a game system. You let me know if CT might fit this bill:

I need a game system with the following:

1. A functional character generation system that lets people make what they want. This includes alien races with game mechanical differences from normal humans.

2. I need a system for psionics, mutations, and cybernetics. I need a skill-heavy system that puts a lot of stock into training. I don't want highly talented (high basic attributes or whatever CT calls them) being superior in game to highly trained people. I need a system that can use dice mechanics to create tension (the best example of this is Alternity's "complex skill check"--if you aren't familiar with this, I will explain.).

3. A combat resolution system that can be played either fast and loose or with a carefully plotted grid (i.e. tactically). It must be "realistic" (within reason, I hate GURPS now for being too dang slow...in my book these days, playability trumps realism), on the lethal side of things, but not cause too large of a body count (PCs, that is). I apparently bought the BITS book "At Close Quarters" for T4, and it seems compatible with CT without too much difficulty. It intrigues me, even if the Action Point system might run a little slow at first (I'm happy to give a system time before I declare it to be "slow" rather than our execution of it).

4. A useable ship creation system that can be heavily modded to suit the technology of my campaign. If I can't simulate Star Trek or Babylon 5 with it, it doesn't meet this criteria (not that I would, mind you, I just need to be able to define my own technology). For what I consider "unusable," see GURPS Vehicles 2nd Edition and possibly FF&S (I don't remember exactly, but it struck me as almost as calculator intensive as GURPS Vehicles). This needs to be coupled with a playable vehicle and starship combat system or it is useless to me.

5. A world and alien species generation system that works. I'm actually fairly certain Traveller has this in spades already. A working trade model is also bonus.

I will tell you that the main reason I am looking into Traveller right now is that my current sci-fi system of choice, Alternity, has a really bad Progress Level system in place of Traveller's Tech Levels. They are clunky and don't accurately simulate the smaller differences between technology levels in my opinion.

So, for now, that's all I can think of. If you think CT can meet these rather stringent requirements, I'm off tomorrow to buy the supplements. I would also need to know what to buy precisely. Besides the original 3 LBBs (in whatever format I can find them in), what is needed? I hear good things from you guys about Supplements 1-13, but I want to make sure.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[apoc527]

Hmmm...seems that CD-ROM is really the way to go. Oh well, I've got a laser printer and a lot of cheap paper...still, I think I will check out the printed books at my FLGS and see if they have any...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
Hmmm...seems that CD-ROM is really the way to go. Oh well, I've got a laser printer and a lot of cheap paper...still, I think I will check out the printed books at my FLGS and see if they have any...

If you shop on the net, you can ususally find deals on the BFBs.

Don't forget used copies on eBay either.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
Here's what I'm looking for in a game system. You let me know if CT might fit this bill:

I need a game system with the following:

1. A functional character generation system that lets people make what they want. This includes alien races with game mechanical differences from normal humans.

Nope. That's not CT. Not without modding it.

Character generation in CT, IMO, is the best the game industry has ever seen. You actually start with a character, 18 years old, and play his history.

"Ok, you're 18 years old. There's college. Or, maybe you just want to try to sign aboard one of the merchant vessels you see at the starport? Wanna try to sweet talk a free trader captain? Or, maybe the recuiters for the Imperial Navy or Marines are calling you... There's a lot of options. What do you want to do?"

Character generation starts off like this, and your player makes rolls. He'll roll to see if he's accepted to a university, and if he is, then he's got to roll to see how well he did. If he wants to join the Imperial Army, he's got to attempt enlistment with a roll. If he fails, he won't be in the Army unless he submits to the draft and gets lucky.

CT character generation is not about a player getting what he wants. It's about character. It's about living a life--a whole background--before the real game actually begins.

Sure, players have choices. A player can guide his character in certain directions, but just as in real life, we don't always get what we want (to coin the Stones).

Check out THIS thread for ideas for modding and additions to the vanilla CT CharGen system.

But, if your players want to sit down on character creation day and say, "OK, I want a guy who's been in the Army, got's lots of STR and DEX, and is very skilled with several weapons..."

That's probably not gonna happen using CT rules. The character may indeed end up in the Army, but there's no guarrantee he'll be this big, bad-ass, highly skilled, highly stated dude.

That type of gaming is for the points-systems you see in GURPS, or the class systems you see in D&D.

Classic Traveller has a more realistic bent. Your player may very well want his character to go into the Army, but if he misses enlistment, and the draft doesn't put him there, then, if you follow CT rules, that character is going to turn out as something else.

This isn't a negative, though. This is some of the charm of CT. This is one of the big reasons CT is still very popular today, 30 freakin years later.

 

[apoc527]

S4--that kind of chargen system is a double-edged sword I've found. One of my favorite games of all time, Mutant Chronicles, clearly was influenced by CT. It had a generation system very similar to this, where you started with a 16 year old and had to grow him up using 2-year "career repetitions." Very similar to T20, which I assume is based on CT.

A lot of the time, that's a really fun way to play, but as we've grown older, we've gotten more into planning things out, making sure the PCs fit together, and enjoying a very story-based game. That's not to say that such a system wouldn't work.

I think the more serious questions are in points 2 and 4 above. I need flexibility and character options. If CT can't handle cybernetic enhancements, I can't see myself using it. If the ship design system, robust as it is, is really stuck within the bounds of Traveller background, that also begins to lose appeal...

As for the chargen, my players actually loved Mutant Chronicles, so getting them to roll up characters would NOT be a problem.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
1. This includes alien races with game mechanical differences from normal humans.

Traveller prides itself on delivering aliens that just aren't "humans-in-rubber-suits" or "humans-with-a-different-forehead".

Aliens in Traveller are, well, alien. Some are very alien.

Much thought and description is put into describing these aliens. They're not just re-statted humans. There's much to their culture and psychology to learn in order to play them properly.

When I introduce a new player to Traveller, I never let them play an alien right off the bat. Why? It's too much to learn. Too much to consume. Unlike any other sci-fi game I know, Traveller takes aliens seriously. They're not "like Klingons with a honor-bound warrior soceity". On the surface, you could describe the Aslan like that. But, if you read up on the aslan, they're so much more than that.

So, yeah, I think CT's got you covered on that point.

[qb]

2. I need a system for psionics, mutations, and cybernetics.

[qb]

Traveller is very "light" on this stuff. Yes, there is a psionics system in the LBB's basic rules, but I'm guessing it's not what you are looking for.

Psionics are shunned in the Imperium. You're a criminal if you're caught. Most Traveller GMs I know rarely uses psionics in their games. It's more of a novelty and less of an every-day occurence. There aren't any "psionic knights".

You might want to look at using the Zhodani race for your group if you're looking to go this way. They're humans, but they're "alien" humans.

As for cybernetics, mutations, and other "super-human" kinds of things, Traveller is real "light" on these as well.

You don't see nano-technology. Cybernetics exist, but most people don't have them.

Traveller is much less "Star Wars" or "The Matrix" and more like "Aliens, Outland, and Blade Runner"[/b].

You can find rules for these things, but they're usually fan-made, non-official optional rules found in a JTAS article.

Traveller is more about regular humans becoming involved in extraordinary (and sometimes quite ordinary) events. It's definitley not about super-humans with powers and gizmos and cybernetics and nano-tech.

Remember Hicks in Aliens? The marine corporal that takes care of Ripley? THAT's more of a stereotypical Traveller character than Luke Skywalker.

Of course, Traveller (especially Classic Trav) encourages GMs to create. So, if you want to run a very space opera game, don't use the official Traveller universe (or even mod it).

You can create a universe to your own tastes.

When Traveller was first created, there was no official universe. What you see of the OTU (Official Traveller Universe) grew up around the game as it spread like wild fire and got popular. Orignal Traveller, though, was designed so that a GM could read his favorite scifi book and create that universe with the rules.

If that's the type you want to create, then do it.

But, you won't find a lot of support in the form of rules and magazine articles and things like that.

"Typical" Traveller is more hard-science based. Sure, it's space opera. But, it's space opera more akin to CJ Cherryh's books or the Honor Harrington series. Or, even Hammer's Slammers. It's much less like Dune, or the books by Lois McMaster Bujold.

Traveller is not about superheros. It's about regular people.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
3. A combat resolution system that can be played either fast and loose or with a carefully plotted grid (i.e. tactically). It must be "realistic"...

Traveller does have you covered there.

The CT system is quick. It's simple, too.

Here it is:

Roll 2D +mods for 8+.

That's it. If you roll 8+, you hit. If you roll 7-, you miss. There are mods for various things (DEX, weapon, range...etc).

And, vanilla CT is definitley deadly. In fact, if you use the First Blood rule, many characters won't survive (they'll probably be knocked unconscious) the first shot.

I've got an updated mod on the combat system that (A) keep the combat system deadly, (B) allows armor to absorb damage instead of make a target harder to hit a la D&D, and (C) is surviveable if the PCs respect gun fights, move tactically, and use body armor and cover...just like real life. You can view that combat system HERE.

The vanilla combat system in the LBBs is no slouch. It's not bad at all.

And, there's several other options. You've already mentioned ACQ (even though it's designed for T4).

ACQ was modeled after two Classic Traveller games (which can be found in one volumne together as BFB's).

There's Snapshot, which is a tactical point game using the personal combat system seen in LBB 1.

There's Azhanti High Lightning, which is another tactical point system, but it uses a different combat system. It's a version of the system used in Striker. Many people use either the AHL or Striker combat systems with regular rpg personal combat. I don't, but many do.

Striker, btw, is used for squad-level combat in an outdoor environment. AHL was meant as an interior version of Striker (two turns in AHL equal one turn in Striker). And, Snapshot is a tactical point version of the basic combat rules seen in the core LBB game rules.

There's plenty of choice when it comes to combat.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
4. A useable ship creation system that can be heavily modded to suit the technology of my campaign. If I can't simulate Star Trek or Babylon 5 with it, it doesn't meet this criteria (not that I would, mind you, I just need to be able to define my own technology). For what I consider "unusable," see GURPS Vehicles 2nd Edition and possibly FF&S (I don't remember exactly, but it struck me as almost as calculator intensive as GURPS Vehicles).

Classic Trav has two main ship creation engines. The first is seen in LBB 2, and it's designed to build ships up to 1000 tons. These are player-level ships...what your players will come into contact most often in a game in the OTU.

The second engine is seen in LBB 5 High Guard. That one is meant for large military spacecraft--ships 50,000...100,000...300,000 tons.

But...

I don't know about the technology you're wanting to use. Classic Traveller is firmly rooted in mainly "hard science". Ships don't zip around like they do in Star Wars. They accelerate contantly, at maximum G thrust, to the mid-point of their journey, then they flip around and decelerate the last half of the trip.

It's the fast way between two points.

Vector movement is used in the space combat rules, which means, unlike Star Wars, if a ship accelerates for 3 hours in one direction, it can't come to a relative stop on a dime. It's got to decelerate for 3 hours in order to stop.

Babylon 5, I can see, using Traveller rules. Star Trek? Nope. Ain't happenin'.

5. A world and alien species generation system that works. I'm actually fairly certain Traveller has this in spades already. A working trade model is also bonus.

Now, CT does have both of these in spades.

You can get extremely detailed in creating worlds.

There's some nice software out there you might want to toy with called Heaven & Earth.

It will allow you to create all sorts of worlds and sectors using CT rules. You might want to look at it. It can be downloaded HERE.

Take that for a test spin and see if it suits your needs.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
If you think CT can meet these rather stringent requirements, I'm off tomorrow to buy the supplements.

I'll be honest. I'm a HUGE Classic Traveller fan, but I don't think Classic Traveller is for you.

Your "wants" list ask for a more "incredible" high-tech type of game. Traveller is not that.

Traveller is a dude who just completed 8 years in the army and then joins up with a tramp freighter to make some credits.

It's not a bio-enhanced soldier with subdermal weapons looking to find adventure amongst the stars.

Traveller isn't that at all.

To be completely honest, I think you should stick with Alternity.

Or, another game I freakin' love is the D6 version of Star Wars. Lots of action. The Force. Cool speeders and spaceships. Dynamic blaster fights.

But, from what you've been asking for, I don't think Traveller is your answer.

It's just a different type of game.

Thanks for all your help!

No problem at all. Glad to help.

If you change your mind on your requirements, or if Traveller intrigues you (be warned it is a different kind of play than what I think you're looking for), I'll be glad to offer up some suggestions on the booklets you might consider purchasing first.

S4

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by apoc527:
If CT can't handle cybernetic enhancements, I can't see myself using it.

It can handle it. There's just not a lot of info to mine in it. That type of thing is not typically part of the gameworld.

What you'll find is an article or two in some of the support magazines. There's nothing really in the Traveller rules for cybernetic enhancements. Traveller is more about real people--it's more reality based. Less supermen.

If you're dead set on Traveller, the closest version that takes that type of thing into accoutn is Traveller The New Era.

But, if I were you, I'd look for a different game. I don't think Traveller is what you want.

Take a look at Fading Suns. There's both the original version and a d20 version.

Star Wars is another good choice. There's both a D6 and a d20 version.

Also, Traveller 2300 (even though it says "Traveller", it's not set in the same universe...it's set in the future of the Twilight 2000 universe). Back in the day, that game got very "cyberpunk-ish", which might be what you're looking for. A new version of the game has just come out (here, through QLI), called 2320AD. There's a forum for that game here.

But, the new version of the game is d20 based (the original game used a task system similar to the one in MegaTraveller) and has gone back to the game's roots (which is to say the game is not all that "cyberpunk-ish" as some of the older 2300AD supplments were).

Maybe others will have some suggestions for you.

If the ship design system, robust as it is, is really stuck within the bounds of Traveller background, that also begins to lose appeal...

I'm afraid you'll think the later. Yes, many of the Traveller design systems are good, but they are "designed" to produce ships for the OTU.

You're not looking for OTU ships. The closest thing I'd point you to is FF&S, for TNE, but even there, non-OTU tech is given only a little space.

I really don't think Traveller is the game you're looking for.

Hate to turn you away, but I'm being honest based on your requirements.

S4