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Where do all those nukes come from?

LeperColony

Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Battlerider and Brilliant Lances both assume the use of nuclear missiles. While the Imperial Rules of War may not apply anymore, I found it a little odd that rules weren't provided for any other munition, since I figure the majority of missiles produced in Imperial times must have been conventional.

Any thoughts? Has anyone worked up any rules for other munitions?
 
Battlerider and Brilliant Lances both assume the use of nuclear missiles. While the Imperial Rules of War may not apply anymore, I found it a little odd that rules weren't provided for any other munition, since I figure the majority of missiles produced in Imperial times must have been conventional.

Any thoughts? Has anyone worked up any rules for other munitions?

Well, Battlerider and Brilliant Lances both assume Imperial Service ships which are allowed to carry nukes. Civilian craft are not. Superior firepower is one way the Imperium keeps law & order.

Also, during the start of the Rebellion, things get hairy with the Rules of War. All combants try to abide by them but soon there is a venerable black market for premium missiles outside of the Safes fed by the Black War production (and not mention unscrupulous nobles - think Iran-Contra on a Galactic scale).

Lastly, there is the Guild and Virus. The Guild has no problem selling Nukes and Virus has compulsion about manufacturing them (remember Virus also invade many autofacs). In between, there comes politics but in TNE, it is a bleak wasted universe which never did care for you anyway.
 
I certainly understand the point of including the rules for nukes. And, particularly for Battle Rider, assuming nukes are standard. But I'm sort of surprised that neither game had any rules for any other munition. Especially Brilliant Lances, which is supposed to be smaller scale and fashioned for TNE games.
 
I certainly understand the point of including the rules for nukes. And, particularly for Battle Rider, assuming nukes are standard. But I'm sort of surprised that neither game had any rules for any other munition. Especially Brilliant Lances, which is supposed to be smaller scale and fashioned for TNE games.

TNE as an era lacks the strong government to preclude civilian use of nukes... the RC doesn't disallow them, so it wasn't obvious that non-nukes would be needed.

Except for any us who rejected the TNE setting but accepted the rules. But it doesn't appear we were consulted prior to it being published.

Further, the nukes used in TNE are detonated standoff so as to generate a laser burst, not as nukes for nuclear destruction; they still could be used that way, but dropping a few tons of rock from orbit would make as big a boom. So barring nukes really is more a psychological tool, not a practical one.
 
As a house rule, I just use FF+S and pick out some proxemity fuzed warhead, throw it on top of a missile and then use the closing velocity as an adder to the energy of the warhead. A good high closing velocity and you bloody well do not need a nuke to penetrate both sides of an armoured ship and keep going.

Missile needs 4X the accel of the target to be able to overcome defensive agility, then the time delay in the missile's control loop gives you the miss distance that can be generated based on the missile and the ship both thrusting in oppisite directions. If this distance is larger than the warhead's fuze radius, or the missile lacks the 4X accel of the target then the result is a miss.

If a potiental hit is generated then ECM may try to spoof or blind the proxemity fuze, or the tracker or the control loop.
lasers may try to destroy it and repulsors can vector it away from the intercept, and sand casters may try to shoot it down like a giant shotgun. Point defense missiles may also be used to intercept, with the exception to the X4 rule above, the defender knows where the attacking missile must vector towards to generate an intercept, so the point defense missile only needs 2X the attacking missile's vector.
 
There was a discussion on this in one of the challenge mags. Someone at GDW did some calcs and determined that a missile could not get closer than about 30,000km before a point def laser had a 100% lock (based on the missile not being able to evade the laser spot in the time it took for the laser burst to arrive). Therefore no missile would ever hit its target.

This forced all missiles to become bomb pumped lasers and hence all space missiles became nukes.

FF&S allows you to build missiles with any sort of warhead, but using the TNE logic, they would be pretty useless in space combat and were probably ground attack weapons.

Hence no rules for non-nuke missiles in the basic rules.

But this did blow a hole in the old Imperial rules of war that said only the Imperium had nukes (allowed for responsible planetary govts for defence against evil zhodani)
 
While the Imperial Rules of War may not apply anymore...


You're putting too much faith in the so-called "Imperial Rules of War".

As has been repeatedly explained on this forum and others, the rules are general guidelines which allow the Imperium to act when it chooses to do so and not a precise legal code which requires the Imperium to act in all cases. Putting it another way, the rules simply reserve the right of the Imperium to act.

Using the admittedly skewed sample of canon, the rules are observed more in the breach than in actuality. In TTA, for example, the PCs come across a nuked scout/courier and yet the Nuke Squad from the MoJ aren't working the crime scene.

We're not dealing with some D&D treasure table where a roll of 6 always produces the same result. Traveller is different.
 
I always saw the det-nuke lasers as very specialist weapons - they're designed around lazing the focusing rods, and that's it. No entry vehicle for planetary attack, and perhaps even designed to fail in any significant atmosphere. With that there was not as much a problem with the Imperial Rules of War.
 
You're putting too much faith in the so-called "Imperial Rules of War".

As has been repeatedly explained on this forum and others, the rules are general guidelines which allow the Imperium to act when it chooses to do so and not a precise legal code which requires the Imperium to act in all cases. Putting it another way, the rules simply reserve the right of the Imperium to act.

Using the admittedly skewed sample of canon, the rules are observed more in the breach than in actuality. In TTA, for example, the PCs come across a nuked scout/courier and yet the Nuke Squad from the MoJ aren't working the crime scene.

We're not dealing with some D&D treasure table where a roll of 6 always produces the same result. Traveller is different.

With all due respect Mr. Whipsnade, I think you may have missed my point. I presumed that the Imperial Rules of War would have created a strong incentive for the production of alternate munitions, and that such munitions would have been relatively common for vessels relevant to PC scale interaction (say 1000dton and down, perhaps) and not unheard of for larger non-Imperial ships, like colonial squadrons.

Given that nuclear weapons were proscribed, however lax the enforcement or hypocritical the policy, surely it is reasonable to believe that some other munitions must exist, and of course we know they do. But BR and BL assume all missiles are nukes, though nuke-for-laser types. I was wondering if anyone had any house rules for non-nuclear warheads.
 
I seem to recall the nuke proscription is strictly limited to use as a planetary theatre weapon and there is no prohibition to them used in space combat. And on the hypocritical note, isn't it also that the rule applies to everyone except the Imperial Forces? Or are those just old houses rule I'm mis-remembering as official? I'm sure I've asked before, and was probably corrected on it :)
 
what makes them specifically nukes-for-laser ?

there should be other ways of creating intense energy releases sufficient to pump a laser in the next few decades (real world)

Ive always regarded it more as a restriction on long term radiation hazard creation than specifically nuclear fission .... a prohibition on nuclear decay messes
 
what makes them specifically nukes-for-laser ?

there should be other ways of creating intense energy releases sufficient to pump a laser in the next few decades (real world)

Ive always regarded it more as a restriction on long term radiation hazard creation than specifically nuclear fission .... a prohibition on nuclear decay messes

The TNE rules specify them as Detonation-laser missiles.
 
Battlerider and Brilliant Lances both assume the use of nuclear missiles. While the Imperial Rules of War may not apply anymore, I found it a little odd that rules weren't provided for any other munition, since I figure the majority of missiles produced in Imperial times must have been conventional.

It's probably exactly as you think. It's an oversight by GDW.

The TNE era rulesets brought about quite a few fundamental shifts in the technology assumptions of the universe (most notably a shift away from "grav plates" towards heplar but there's others). Due to thinking of GDW about missiles (they should be somewhat small, space combat occurs at super-long ranges requiring the handwave of grav focusing for lasers, and so on), missiles that use blast effects against their targets aren't very useful - they move too slow and are too easily shot down (this doesn't take into account that many smaller ships don't seem to have any way to shoot down missiles, oops). So the only relevant missile type for space combat would be pumped det-lasers which aren't really missiles but more of a stand-off platform for laser shots.

I've always figured that TNE-era had a "we have always been at war with eastasia" type retcon where the Imperial Rules of War meant you couldn't use nuclear weapons as direct blast weapons - using them to pump detonation lasers is fine. Using the same detonation laser in atmosphere for EMP or nuclear blast effects is a no-no.

there should be other ways of creating intense energy releases sufficient to pump a laser in the next few decades (real world)

Actually that might be a more elegant solution. Perhaps around TL11 or something they do come up with non-nuclear high efficiency methods to get a similar effect to detonation laser performance without using nuclear detonations. The development is a technology driven by the Imperial Rules of War. At TL11, they're much less effective than det-lasers and more expensive, however they're not nukes and they have a reasonable performance. At TL12, less effective but getting better and become cheaper and so on. At TL13 they achieve near-parity in effectiveness but not in cost. By TL14 the non-nuclear versions are more slightly effective than nuclear pumped versions but remain expensive and require TL14 industries to build them. At TL15 and beyond, they become increasingly more effective and increasingly cheaper but never as cheap as a nuclear one.

Within a year or so of the Rebellion starting, the unprecedented ferocity of the civil war has meant the former fleets of the Imperial Navy has shot off most of its non-nuclear laser-missiles. With the "one true Imperium" fighting each other, everyone realizes that making these non-nuclear laser missiles isn't a good use for production except on the few TL14+ worlds (where it competes with other wartime production) and such missiles are reserved for primary naval fleets. Secondary fleets don't have enough missiles to fill their magazines. Everyone else can't get them at all.

Of course, with the lapsing enforcement of "rules of space" (as described in Hard Times) everyone knows that nuclear pumped det-lasers are undeniably effective, and a TL10 nuclear laser is as good as a TL13 non-nuke one, a whole lot cheaper and can be fashioned fairly easily even in a "garage" workshop at TL14-15. So secondary squadrons start using nukes. Raiders and deserters do the same (cut off from conventional supply). Merchants operating outside of the Safes start doing the same.
 
When is a missile not a missile?

I'm not sure what the etiquette is for referring to posts in other forums, but I addressed this in the Yahoo TNE list as another example of the "underlap" we sometimes had in TNE in trying to address the storyline, established in-game "facts" vs. retcons, and universal rules at the same time. One of the posts in here refers to the Challenge article where we talked about the "can't miss" range, which is part of the nuke det laser logic, and the other is, "is a Traveller missile like a Terrier on the rail of a Mk 10 launcher (my opinion, "yes") or like one of hundreds of flechettes coming out of a howitzer barrel ("no," although you could build these in FF&S if you wanted, but this is not what CT missiles were)?" Since they were established as the former, they didn't really work.

Then there's the fact that Star Cruiser was believed to be a more current, "realistic," satisfactory approach to space combat, and much of its logic carried forward.

That's sort of the digest version.

Dave
 
Even In Universe, the distinction between tactical and strategic weapons is usually pretty obvious, though the precise line could be arbitrary. City busters = violation. tactical yield = legal. The precise dividing line could be pretty arbitrary but probably somewhere around a megaton, though you could make the argument for anywhere between 100kt and 500kt. None of the nuclear pumped x-ray weapons come close to that (highest is 500kt) and TL8 high explosives can approach those yields anyways (particularly when you get into thermobaric weaponry, etc).

Any fission warheads or deliberately "dirty" weapons should count, as well.

After all, your average Far Trader as a kamikaze could make a mean impact coming in at max acceleration from 100D out... so the simple "nuclear" = bad smacks too much of the 70's environment Traveller spawned from.
 
The precise dividing line could be pretty arbitrary but probably somewhere around a megaton, though you could make the argument for anywhere between 100kt and 500kt.

I'd hope to God it would be quite a bit less than that, although I take your (implied) point that incendiaries did worse than 17 kt at Hiroshima.

After all, your average Far Trader as a kamikaze could make a mean impact coming in at max acceleration from 100D out... so the simple "nuclear" = bad smacks too much of the 70's environment Traveller spawned from.

I suppose I, like Traveller, am a product of my times, which is why I hoped to God the way I did above. However, I think it is logically easier to say, "a nuke is a nuke" when trying to make rules, rather than arbitrary size threshholds that would encourage you to stick your toe across a line and try to get away with it. If the Imperial Law of War Bureau Investigation Team comes in and finds fallout, you're toast. If not, "eh." It's that easy. When simple is easier, it's got a lot to recommend it, especially when you're dealing with bureaucracies.
 
Because bureaucracy is/does anything but simple!

More to the point, bureaucracies don't want to do anything at all, so you have to keep their jobs simple so you can determine if they're doing anything. If you make it complex they'll just keep telling you, "we're performing a study on how many studies we need to perform" until you die.
 
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