When?
- Thread starter kafka47
- Start date
ditto.
There are lots of great products out there compeating for my limited RPG dollars. We need a realistic publishing time line so we can alocate our buying accordingly.
You REALLY do your readers a disservice stringing them along like this. Plus you shoot yourself in the foot.
We get the Traveller feaver, so we wait for a product. The product is late. Meanwhile, some OTHER company comes out with some other game. We get that feaver. We (plus all out friends we play with) buy THOSE products. When the Traveller product comes out, we're all playing something else, and all our RPG dollars have been spent.
"I'd rather have a quality product that's a few months late than a crappy product now," you say.
Well, in EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY customers expect quality products delivered on time (and under budget).
"Our customers don't care about that. They're all 12 years old and buy our stuff with their Mom's credit cards."
Nope. We were 12 back in 1979 when we bought the Little Black Books with out Mom's credit cards. Now we're 35, know how buisness is conducted and how quality compaines are run, and we expect companies to ship products on the ship date.
Sorry about the rant, but GEEZ, for us players it's a hobby but for you guys it's a buisness. RUN IT like a buisness. Some companies crank out a new expantion to their product line every 90 to 120 days. Some companies put out crap, some put out good stuff. That's what separates quality compaines from bad compaines.
When you miss ship dates, it shows us you concider publishing to be "just a hobby."
If you don't care, why should we?
Now, there's no way for us to see the late nights, hours spend proofreading, HOURS and HOURS of playtesting. All we can see is if it's on time or not, and if it's crap of not.
But if it's late, we might not ever bother to find out if it's crap or not. We JUST MIGHT move on the something else.
I won't, but for every guy like me there are 100 new gamers who might try traveller, but who also might pass in favor of Spycraft or some other new D20 "flavor of the month."
There are lots of great products out there compeating for my limited RPG dollars. We need a realistic publishing time line so we can alocate our buying accordingly.
You REALLY do your readers a disservice stringing them along like this. Plus you shoot yourself in the foot.
We get the Traveller feaver, so we wait for a product. The product is late. Meanwhile, some OTHER company comes out with some other game. We get that feaver. We (plus all out friends we play with) buy THOSE products. When the Traveller product comes out, we're all playing something else, and all our RPG dollars have been spent.
"I'd rather have a quality product that's a few months late than a crappy product now," you say.
Well, in EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY customers expect quality products delivered on time (and under budget).
"Our customers don't care about that. They're all 12 years old and buy our stuff with their Mom's credit cards."
Nope. We were 12 back in 1979 when we bought the Little Black Books with out Mom's credit cards. Now we're 35, know how buisness is conducted and how quality compaines are run, and we expect companies to ship products on the ship date.
Sorry about the rant, but GEEZ, for us players it's a hobby but for you guys it's a buisness. RUN IT like a buisness. Some companies crank out a new expantion to their product line every 90 to 120 days. Some companies put out crap, some put out good stuff. That's what separates quality compaines from bad compaines.
When you miss ship dates, it shows us you concider publishing to be "just a hobby."
If you don't care, why should we?
Now, there's no way for us to see the late nights, hours spend proofreading, HOURS and HOURS of playtesting. All we can see is if it's on time or not, and if it's crap of not.
But if it's late, we might not ever bother to find out if it's crap or not. We JUST MIGHT move on the something else.
I won't, but for every guy like me there are 100 new gamers who might try traveller, but who also might pass in favor of Spycraft or some other new D20 "flavor of the month."
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phydaux:
ditto.
There are lots of great products out there compeating for my limited RPG dollars. We need a realistic publishing time line so we can alocate our buying accordingly.
You REALLY do your readers a disservice stringing them along like this. Plus you shoot yourself in the foot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hate to say this, but the delays in the T20 book are relatively standard for the entire gaming industry.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
"I'd rather have a quality product that's a few months late than a crappy product now," you say.
Well, in EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY customers expect quality products delivered on time (and under budget).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please quote me an industry which can consistently deliver product on time and under budget.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
"Our customers don't care about that. They're all 12 years old and buy our stuff with their Mom's credit cards."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is obnoxious. I've never seen any one from any gaming company ever be this dismissive. And certianly never here.
I agree that having the product's delayed is a pain, particularly one so anticitpated. The one thing I'd like to see is better updates from the authors or editors on progress.
Small companies printing a first book, when most of the writers and editors are doing their work part time, are always bound to be delays. And with the book in final production, it won't be much longer.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I won't, but for every guy like me there are 100 new gamers who might try traveller, but who also might pass in favor of Spycraft or some other new D20 "flavor of the month."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The gamers who want the D20 "flavor of the month" don't care if the book comes out in May or a year from May. The gamers who want Traveller will wait, and everyones know it. You seem to be complaining for the D20 players looking for the Sci-Fi experience, latching on to the first one that comes along.
This is the cry of "I want my instant gradification and I want it now!". Have some courtesy for people who are trying to out compete an 800 lb gorrila and 500 other people.
ditto.
There are lots of great products out there compeating for my limited RPG dollars. We need a realistic publishing time line so we can alocate our buying accordingly.
You REALLY do your readers a disservice stringing them along like this. Plus you shoot yourself in the foot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hate to say this, but the delays in the T20 book are relatively standard for the entire gaming industry.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
"I'd rather have a quality product that's a few months late than a crappy product now," you say.
Well, in EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY customers expect quality products delivered on time (and under budget).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please quote me an industry which can consistently deliver product on time and under budget.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
"Our customers don't care about that. They're all 12 years old and buy our stuff with their Mom's credit cards."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is obnoxious. I've never seen any one from any gaming company ever be this dismissive. And certianly never here.
I agree that having the product's delayed is a pain, particularly one so anticitpated. The one thing I'd like to see is better updates from the authors or editors on progress.
Small companies printing a first book, when most of the writers and editors are doing their work part time, are always bound to be delays. And with the book in final production, it won't be much longer.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I won't, but for every guy like me there are 100 new gamers who might try traveller, but who also might pass in favor of Spycraft or some other new D20 "flavor of the month."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The gamers who want the D20 "flavor of the month" don't care if the book comes out in May or a year from May. The gamers who want Traveller will wait, and everyones know it. You seem to be complaining for the D20 players looking for the Sci-Fi experience, latching on to the first one that comes along.
This is the cry of "I want my instant gradification and I want it now!". Have some courtesy for people who are trying to out compete an 800 lb gorrila and 500 other people.
(snip)
I hate to say this, but the delays in the T20 book are relatively standard for the entire gaming industry.
(snip)
2 things:
1) Throwing up your hands and saying "We're late, but everyone else is late, so it doesn't matter" is just that - throwing up your hands. Just because some other company can't meet deadlines doesn't mean OUR company (whoever "we" are) shouldn't or don't have to meet deadlines.
2) Not every company is always late. Steve Jackson Games has a great reputation of rolling products out the door within a week or 2 of ship-date. And they usually ship 4 titles a month.
(snip)
Please quote me an industry which can consistently deliver product on time and under budget.
(snip)
Wel, I worked for a small software company in Cambridge, Mass. We made games, computer games. We knew it took 18 months to produce one title. Between our programmers, artists, designers and QA staff, we always kept 3 products in simultanious development and released one title every 6 months. In all the time I was there, we never missed a ship date by more than 5 days.
It was tough. There was the home office in Seattle looking over out sholder, making damn well sure we shipped on time, under budget and that our titles were profitable.
And there was a price to pay for that. I saw 2 game designers booted out on their ass because their projects were either late or over budget. Like I said, if I play games, it's a hobby but if I MAKE games, it's a business.
I guess that's what makes me so hacked off. I've seen for myself that it can be done and done well.
(snip)
The gamers who want the D20 "flavor of the month" don't care if the book comes out in May or a year from May. The gamers who want Traveller will wait, and everyones know it.
(snip)
Now YOUR being dismissive, just like you said you've never seen anyone be.
I hate to say this, but the delays in the T20 book are relatively standard for the entire gaming industry.
(snip)
2 things:
1) Throwing up your hands and saying "We're late, but everyone else is late, so it doesn't matter" is just that - throwing up your hands. Just because some other company can't meet deadlines doesn't mean OUR company (whoever "we" are) shouldn't or don't have to meet deadlines.
2) Not every company is always late. Steve Jackson Games has a great reputation of rolling products out the door within a week or 2 of ship-date. And they usually ship 4 titles a month.
(snip)
Please quote me an industry which can consistently deliver product on time and under budget.
(snip)
Wel, I worked for a small software company in Cambridge, Mass. We made games, computer games. We knew it took 18 months to produce one title. Between our programmers, artists, designers and QA staff, we always kept 3 products in simultanious development and released one title every 6 months. In all the time I was there, we never missed a ship date by more than 5 days.
It was tough. There was the home office in Seattle looking over out sholder, making damn well sure we shipped on time, under budget and that our titles were profitable.
And there was a price to pay for that. I saw 2 game designers booted out on their ass because their projects were either late or over budget. Like I said, if I play games, it's a hobby but if I MAKE games, it's a business.
I guess that's what makes me so hacked off. I've seen for myself that it can be done and done well.
(snip)
The gamers who want the D20 "flavor of the month" don't care if the book comes out in May or a year from May. The gamers who want Traveller will wait, and everyones know it.
(snip)
Now YOUR being dismissive, just like you said you've never seen anyone be.
Hi,
What's the general opinion of the message board readers on the subject of completion vs. date targeting?
1) I want the book out on time, no matter the state of the book, I don't care if there are 2 pages of errata per 10 pages of book.
2) I want the book out as close to the time of release as possible, less errors are good but even system errors can be corrected with errata. Errata about 1 page per 10 pages of book.
3) I want the system to be fully tested and mostly tester approved, but the spelling and grammar don't matter to me. Errata about 1 page per 50 pages. I want this knowing that the book could slip 2-5 months from target dat.
4) I don't mind waiting 6 months or more if I get a bullet-proof system, tested from the lower levels to the higher levels, with full testing of all the different potential aspects, and the knowledge that the system works at all possible levels of play. Wide scale grammer and spelling sweeps done many times over. Errata about 1 page per 150-200 pages.
I'd be interested to hear what people think.
Esmdev
What's the general opinion of the message board readers on the subject of completion vs. date targeting?
1) I want the book out on time, no matter the state of the book, I don't care if there are 2 pages of errata per 10 pages of book.
2) I want the book out as close to the time of release as possible, less errors are good but even system errors can be corrected with errata. Errata about 1 page per 10 pages of book.
3) I want the system to be fully tested and mostly tester approved, but the spelling and grammar don't matter to me. Errata about 1 page per 50 pages. I want this knowing that the book could slip 2-5 months from target dat.
4) I don't mind waiting 6 months or more if I get a bullet-proof system, tested from the lower levels to the higher levels, with full testing of all the different potential aspects, and the knowledge that the system works at all possible levels of play. Wide scale grammer and spelling sweeps done many times over. Errata about 1 page per 150-200 pages.
I'd be interested to hear what people think.
Esmdev
MichaelL65
SOC-12
#4
It bugs me that even the reprints of the classic adventures have some rather grevious errors in them, such as reffering to the creator of Star Wars as "Gene" Lucus (Suppliment 4, page 430. I mean, these were first printed nearly 25 years before these reprints, you would think SOMEONE could have corrected some of these things.
It bugs me that even the reprints of the classic adventures have some rather grevious errors in them, such as reffering to the creator of Star Wars as "Gene" Lucus (Suppliment 4, page 430. I mean, these were first printed nearly 25 years before these reprints, you would think SOMEONE could have corrected some of these things.
I don't care how long it takes, just so long as the posted release schedules are kept reasonably up to date. It's mid-April and the release schedule on the website still says March.
So it's gone to layout? For the benefit of those of us NOT intimately familiar with the publishing industry, what the hell does that mean in practical terms? Should we expect to see it in our stores next week? Next month? Next year?
[This message has been edited by Mirzabah (edited 23 April 2002).]
So it's gone to layout? For the benefit of those of us NOT intimately familiar with the publishing industry, what the hell does that mean in practical terms? Should we expect to see it in our stores next week? Next month? Next year?
[This message has been edited by Mirzabah (edited 23 April 2002).]
esmdev
Your 4-selection list is a little too simplistic.
This is a human endeavor. There will ALWAYS be errata. If we are LUCKY, errata will be limited to mostly spelling, grammar and clarifying rules that were worded awkwardly.
By the way, clarifying rules that were worded awkwardly is 90% of what the errata does. Just because it's clear in the designer's mind doesn't mean it will always be clear in the player's mind when he reads it.
System errors are errors that occur with the "game engine" - the "this plus that, modified by the other and compared to some dice"
The game engine needs to be FULLY playtested, highest level to lowest level, no matter what. Gamers, particularly the "weedy munchkin" variety, will tear a game apart once they get their hands on it.
A FAQ with 40 - 60 entries of clarifications, particularly in a 300+ page product, is no big deal. Once you put in a "Yeah, we said that, but it works this way now," you have lost your audience.
Also, not all 300-page RPG books are created equal. When SJ games puts out a 64 page rules supplement, it's 64 pages of rules. With other companies, that's not the case.
Hell, there's one company, I don't want to name names, let's call them Albino Varger, if they publish a rule book, in 10 pages you'll get 3 pages of backstory, 3 pages of really BAD art, 2 pages of game fiction that is even WORSE than the art and 2 pages of actual rules.
In defense of the Trav d20 team, they have gone on record saying the reason for the delays has been playtest reasons. That's a totally valid reason to postpone a release, if you ask me.
But there is NO REASON to not update the Web site. NONE! I'm not saying they feel this way, but it projects that they don't give a damn about their customers. That's bad for business.
And like I said before, if I play games, it's a hobby but if I MAKE games, it's a business.
Your 4-selection list is a little too simplistic.
This is a human endeavor. There will ALWAYS be errata. If we are LUCKY, errata will be limited to mostly spelling, grammar and clarifying rules that were worded awkwardly.
By the way, clarifying rules that were worded awkwardly is 90% of what the errata does. Just because it's clear in the designer's mind doesn't mean it will always be clear in the player's mind when he reads it.
System errors are errors that occur with the "game engine" - the "this plus that, modified by the other and compared to some dice"
The game engine needs to be FULLY playtested, highest level to lowest level, no matter what. Gamers, particularly the "weedy munchkin" variety, will tear a game apart once they get their hands on it.
A FAQ with 40 - 60 entries of clarifications, particularly in a 300+ page product, is no big deal. Once you put in a "Yeah, we said that, but it works this way now," you have lost your audience.
Also, not all 300-page RPG books are created equal. When SJ games puts out a 64 page rules supplement, it's 64 pages of rules. With other companies, that's not the case.
Hell, there's one company, I don't want to name names, let's call them Albino Varger, if they publish a rule book, in 10 pages you'll get 3 pages of backstory, 3 pages of really BAD art, 2 pages of game fiction that is even WORSE than the art and 2 pages of actual rules.
In defense of the Trav d20 team, they have gone on record saying the reason for the delays has been playtest reasons. That's a totally valid reason to postpone a release, if you ask me.
But there is NO REASON to not update the Web site. NONE! I'm not saying they feel this way, but it projects that they don't give a damn about their customers. That's bad for business.
And like I said before, if I play games, it's a hobby but if I MAKE games, it's a business.
For the recors, GT IMperial Navy is about 3 years behind schedule. But I digress.
We live or die by this product. Once it's in print, it's there for good. If initial impressions are bad, or it's "broken" then we're finished. Therefore, we can't release until we're sure that we aren't going to sink the entire future of the product line by doing so.
As to a date for actual release, I'm thinking it'll go to the printers end May, and be available for preorder then, and appear a few weeks after that.
We live or die by this product. Once it's in print, it's there for good. If initial impressions are bad, or it's "broken" then we're finished. Therefore, we can't release until we're sure that we aren't going to sink the entire future of the product line by doing so.
As to a date for actual release, I'm thinking it'll go to the printers end May, and be available for preorder then, and appear a few weeks after that.
4 seemed to simplistic? It means that ever class was tested and balanced at every level of play (1-20), each potential background class was tested with each possible exit point, and multi-class combinations were tested and balanced at every level of play. It means that starships were designed and compared at different tonnage, with a wide range of available weapons, defenses, and other options. It means that the trading system was tested, re-tested, and re-tested against hundreds of worlds with a wide range of trade codes. That each race was checked and double checked to see how they impact one another, or if they even fit within the context of the game. It means that all of the modifications to the combat system have been verified in numerous diverse combats using as many possible weapons as possible against as many defenses as possible... I'm sure you get what I mean, so I'll stop.
Bulletproof was a reference to the T20 game engine itself. Star Wars D20 is a great example of a conversion attempt that went way to fast, and a whole new book needs to be released to make up for it. An example of a 300 page book needing 300 pages of errata...
Bulletproof was a reference to the T20 game engine itself. Star Wars D20 is a great example of a conversion attempt that went way to fast, and a whole new book needs to be released to make up for it. An example of a 300 page book needing 300 pages of errata...
Smiling DM
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MJD:
As to a date for actual release, I'm thinking it'll go to the printers end May, and be available for preorder then, and appear a few weeks after that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanx MJD!!
I don't envy you your task and the risk that you and the company are taking on this product - I work at a high tech start-up - I've been in your shoes.
The key to keeping the flames down is information. Not all of us are involved in the play-testing nor the publishing industry. We can't see the progress nor the hard work that goes into making it happen.
I work in Research, and often have to give project milestone estimates to Marketing and our customers. I don't always meet them. In the instances that I don't, I have found that simply keeping my intended audience informed of the actual events/progess/issues, I get a lot less misery.
By making your one, simple sentence, you provided the key information I needed (and will hopefully molify the rest us). I'd hope to see an update to that one sentence in about 2 weeks, whether there are changes or not (hopefully not).
I understand that the ship dates may still change, but now I can push off my need for 'instant gratification' until June and plan on when to start selling the idea of a Traveller game to my group.
As to a date for actual release, I'm thinking it'll go to the printers end May, and be available for preorder then, and appear a few weeks after that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanx MJD!!
I don't envy you your task and the risk that you and the company are taking on this product - I work at a high tech start-up - I've been in your shoes.
The key to keeping the flames down is information. Not all of us are involved in the play-testing nor the publishing industry. We can't see the progress nor the hard work that goes into making it happen.
I work in Research, and often have to give project milestone estimates to Marketing and our customers. I don't always meet them. In the instances that I don't, I have found that simply keeping my intended audience informed of the actual events/progess/issues, I get a lot less misery.
By making your one, simple sentence, you provided the key information I needed (and will hopefully molify the rest us). I'd hope to see an update to that one sentence in about 2 weeks, whether there are changes or not (hopefully not).
I understand that the ship dates may still change, but now I can push off my need for 'instant gratification' until June and plan on when to start selling the idea of a Traveller game to my group.
Antares Administration
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirzabah:
I don't care how long it takes, just so long as the posted release schedules are kept reasonably up to date. It's mid-April and the release schedule on the website still says March.
[This message has been edited by Mirzabah (edited 23 April 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with this much more than any of the "four options" listed above.
"YOU", the game manufacturer, should strive to always meet your targets WHILE delivered the highest possible quality product. Shoot for no errors! Pick realistic-but-aggressive targets and if you're going to miss one, change it and let everyone know.
Even companies with the highest standards of customer service miss target delivery dates. I once ordered a D*** computer, and received a call two days later to tell me that they had just identified that they were using a defective batch of microprocessor chips. They then told me what they were doing about it. I wasn't happy about it, but I was glad that I didn't have to chase them.
It's better to miss a target and tell your customers what you're doing about it, than to miss the target, and just keep toiling away, leaving your customers hanging for a product that isn't going to be out on the date that you told them.
My two credits worth,
Paul Nemeth
AA
[This message has been edited by Antares Administration (edited 24 April 2002).]
I don't care how long it takes, just so long as the posted release schedules are kept reasonably up to date. It's mid-April and the release schedule on the website still says March.
[This message has been edited by Mirzabah (edited 23 April 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with this much more than any of the "four options" listed above.
"YOU", the game manufacturer, should strive to always meet your targets WHILE delivered the highest possible quality product. Shoot for no errors! Pick realistic-but-aggressive targets and if you're going to miss one, change it and let everyone know.
Even companies with the highest standards of customer service miss target delivery dates. I once ordered a D*** computer, and received a call two days later to tell me that they had just identified that they were using a defective batch of microprocessor chips. They then told me what they were doing about it. I wasn't happy about it, but I was glad that I didn't have to chase them.
It's better to miss a target and tell your customers what you're doing about it, than to miss the target, and just keep toiling away, leaving your customers hanging for a product that isn't going to be out on the date that you told them.
My two credits worth,
Paul Nemeth
AA
[This message has been edited by Antares Administration (edited 24 April 2002).]
Smiling DM
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esmdev:
Hi,
What's the general opinion of the message board readers on the subject of completion vs. date targeting?
1) I want the book out on time, no matter the state of the book, I don't care if there are 2 pages of errata per 10 pages of book.
2) I want the book out as close to the time of release as possible, less errors are good but even system errors can be corrected with errata. Errata about 1 page per 10 pages of book.
3) I want the system to be fully tested and mostly tester approved, but the spelling and grammar don't matter to me. Errata about 1 page per 50 pages. I want this knowing that the book could slip 2-5 months from target dat.
4) I don't mind waiting 6 months or more if I get a bullet-proof system, tested from the lower levels to the higher levels, with full testing of all the different potential aspects, and the knowledge that the system works at all possible levels of play. Wide scale grammer and spelling sweeps done many times over. Errata about 1 page per 150-200 pages.
I'd be interested to hear what people think.
Esmdev<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd like #3, but then again I want the game company to make a reasonable estimate on what is required to achieve this level of "perfection", and so be a lot closer than the "3-5 months late"
I don't have a major problem with minor errata given the modern age of the internet. Its easy to check a web-page a print out a page or two of errata for a 300 page plus book.
Now I do balk at seeing a 300+ page errata book (I am SOOOO disappointed, that I probably won't buy the new Star Wars biik just on principal) so I do expect the game company to do their homework, which was obviously not done in the above example.
Hi,
What's the general opinion of the message board readers on the subject of completion vs. date targeting?
1) I want the book out on time, no matter the state of the book, I don't care if there are 2 pages of errata per 10 pages of book.
2) I want the book out as close to the time of release as possible, less errors are good but even system errors can be corrected with errata. Errata about 1 page per 10 pages of book.
3) I want the system to be fully tested and mostly tester approved, but the spelling and grammar don't matter to me. Errata about 1 page per 50 pages. I want this knowing that the book could slip 2-5 months from target dat.
4) I don't mind waiting 6 months or more if I get a bullet-proof system, tested from the lower levels to the higher levels, with full testing of all the different potential aspects, and the knowledge that the system works at all possible levels of play. Wide scale grammer and spelling sweeps done many times over. Errata about 1 page per 150-200 pages.
I'd be interested to hear what people think.
Esmdev<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd like #3, but then again I want the game company to make a reasonable estimate on what is required to achieve this level of "perfection", and so be a lot closer than the "3-5 months late"
I don't have a major problem with minor errata given the modern age of the internet. Its easy to check a web-page a print out a page or two of errata for a 300 page plus book.
Now I do balk at seeing a 300+ page errata book (I am SOOOO disappointed, that I probably won't buy the new Star Wars biik just on principal) so I do expect the game company to do their homework, which was obviously not done in the above example.
But, what about updating the site?
I'm a webmaster, I know that having a complete full working site is difficult but updating a bit, posting an update each week, that is only the time of writting it!!!!
There is no excuse for a out-dated site, there is no excuse for going to tavellerrpg.com and finding them that realese date for T20 still figures as March!!!
Please, it's for your own good, dedicate at least half an hour each week to your website...
I'm a webmaster, I know that having a complete full working site is difficult but updating a bit, posting an update each week, that is only the time of writting it!!!!
There is no excuse for a out-dated site, there is no excuse for going to tavellerrpg.com and finding them that realese date for T20 still figures as March!!!
Please, it's for your own good, dedicate at least half an hour each week to your website...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phydaux:
(snip)
I hate to say this, but the delays in the T20 book are relatively standard for the entire gaming industry.
(snip)
2 things:
1) Throwing up your hands and saying "We're late, but everyone else is late, so it doesn't matter" is just that - throwing up your hands. Just because some other company can't meet deadlines doesn't mean OUR company (whoever "we" are) shouldn't or don't have to meet deadlines.
2) Not every company is always late. Steve Jackson Games has a great reputation of rolling products out the door within a week or 2 of ship-date. And they usually ship 4 titles a month.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The lateness is more due to the fact of fan (like us) demanding release dates months or years in advance of actual ship dates and then being upset that the author/publishers are not precognicient enough to forsee all delays.
SJG has a policy of not announcing product ship dates until the products are basicly at the point where the T20 book is now (i.e. finished writing and playtesting, in final edit and layout).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I guess that's what makes me so hacked off. I've seen for myself that it can be done and done well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good, fast, cheap: Pick two.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The gamers who want the D20 "flavor of the month" don't care if the book comes out in May or a year from May. The gamers who want Traveller will wait, and everyones know it.
(snip)
Now YOUR being dismissive, just like you said you've never seen anyone be.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True, I am being dismissive. Accept an apology?
(snip)
I hate to say this, but the delays in the T20 book are relatively standard for the entire gaming industry.
(snip)
2 things:
1) Throwing up your hands and saying "We're late, but everyone else is late, so it doesn't matter" is just that - throwing up your hands. Just because some other company can't meet deadlines doesn't mean OUR company (whoever "we" are) shouldn't or don't have to meet deadlines.
2) Not every company is always late. Steve Jackson Games has a great reputation of rolling products out the door within a week or 2 of ship-date. And they usually ship 4 titles a month.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The lateness is more due to the fact of fan (like us) demanding release dates months or years in advance of actual ship dates and then being upset that the author/publishers are not precognicient enough to forsee all delays.
SJG has a policy of not announcing product ship dates until the products are basicly at the point where the T20 book is now (i.e. finished writing and playtesting, in final edit and layout).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I guess that's what makes me so hacked off. I've seen for myself that it can be done and done well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good, fast, cheap: Pick two.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The gamers who want the D20 "flavor of the month" don't care if the book comes out in May or a year from May. The gamers who want Traveller will wait, and everyones know it.
(snip)
Now YOUR being dismissive, just like you said you've never seen anyone be.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True, I am being dismissive. Accept an apology?
(snip)
For the recors, GT IMperial Navy is about 3 years behind schedule.
(snip)
Well, for the recore, the whole GURPS:Traveller product line seems to have fallen off the SJ Games radar. They were releasing one product every 3 months for about 2 years, then nothing for the last year or so.
Come to think of it, the G:T products stoped coming right about the time SJ fired his Financial Comptroler and layed off half his staff...
(snip)
We live or die by this product.
(snip)
I hear you. We all do. Thank God YOU have the guts to stick it all on the line and give this a try. We're all cowards.
(snip)
SJG has a policy of not announcing product ship dates until the products are basicly at the point where the T20 book is now (i.e. finished writing and playtesting, in final edit and layout).
(snip)
That's just good buisness.
For the recors, GT IMperial Navy is about 3 years behind schedule.
(snip)
Well, for the recore, the whole GURPS:Traveller product line seems to have fallen off the SJ Games radar. They were releasing one product every 3 months for about 2 years, then nothing for the last year or so.
Come to think of it, the G:T products stoped coming right about the time SJ fired his Financial Comptroler and layed off half his staff...
(snip)
We live or die by this product.
(snip)
I hear you. We all do. Thank God YOU have the guts to stick it all on the line and give this a try. We're all cowards.
(snip)
SJG has a policy of not announcing product ship dates until the products are basicly at the point where the T20 book is now (i.e. finished writing and playtesting, in final edit and layout).
(snip)
That's just good buisness.
This argument keeps showing up. The sad part is that it seems to always get framed as a "quality" vs. "on time" issue. The real issue is not can a product be on time and still be a quality product, despite what some people say it is done in the real world quite a bit. No the real issue is "Can a company plan and forecast time needed to complete a project correctly?".
Many publishing companies must meet deadlines with quality products on a regular bases. Magazines, Trade Journals, Textbooks, Paperback and Hardbound books to be sold on the "book trade" market, Games Day books for sports teams, and packaging for DVD & VHS all must meet deadlines and do. I know because I have worked for such publishers and I am working for a company that must meet every street date because they are so locked in by contracts. Project planing is part art and part craft, but it is always obvious when poor project planning is used.
After the last exchange on this board I decided not to harp on the issue. Bottom line is MJD & Hunter are doing what they believe is best for their company. We must respect their choices even if we do not agree with them. If they wish to hold their work for another six months so be it. It will be them and their company that will have to deal with the effects of their actions. We all need to either move on and buy/play something else or just wait and buy their product once it is out.
dafrca
Many publishing companies must meet deadlines with quality products on a regular bases. Magazines, Trade Journals, Textbooks, Paperback and Hardbound books to be sold on the "book trade" market, Games Day books for sports teams, and packaging for DVD & VHS all must meet deadlines and do. I know because I have worked for such publishers and I am working for a company that must meet every street date because they are so locked in by contracts. Project planing is part art and part craft, but it is always obvious when poor project planning is used.
After the last exchange on this board I decided not to harp on the issue. Bottom line is MJD & Hunter are doing what they believe is best for their company. We must respect their choices even if we do not agree with them. If they wish to hold their work for another six months so be it. It will be them and their company that will have to deal with the effects of their actions. We all need to either move on and buy/play something else or just wait and buy their product once it is out.
dafrca
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phydaux:
(snip)
Well, for the recore, the whole GURPS:Traveller product line seems to have fallen off the SJ Games radar. They were releasing one product every 3 months for about 2 years, then nothing for the last year or so.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So deckplans (the SDB just last month), the Bounty Hunters booklet, and six Planetary Surveys don't count?
You're a tough audience...
(snip)
Well, for the recore, the whole GURPS:Traveller product line seems to have fallen off the SJ Games radar. They were releasing one product every 3 months for about 2 years, then nothing for the last year or so.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So deckplans (the SDB just last month), the Bounty Hunters booklet, and six Planetary Surveys don't count?
You're a tough audience...
Cleon the Mad
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GypsyComet:
So deckplans (the SDB just last month), the Bounty Hunters booklet, and six Planetary Surveys don't count?
You're a tough audience...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay, I guess I'm going to tow the line here...yes, the deckplans including the Dragon class SDB, the six world books and Bounty Hunters do count...but how long has "Humaniti" been "In playtest"? I think the first post in that forum dates back to late May 2001...I suspect it's been done and ready to ship off for a couple of while now, for instance. I do count the deckplans and the 32 page booklets, but at the same time no large suppliment books have came from SJG for GT for a couple of whiles now.
Me
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It is not I who am crazy, it's I who am mad!
So deckplans (the SDB just last month), the Bounty Hunters booklet, and six Planetary Surveys don't count?
You're a tough audience...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay, I guess I'm going to tow the line here...yes, the deckplans including the Dragon class SDB, the six world books and Bounty Hunters do count...but how long has "Humaniti" been "In playtest"? I think the first post in that forum dates back to late May 2001...I suspect it's been done and ready to ship off for a couple of while now, for instance. I do count the deckplans and the 32 page booklets, but at the same time no large suppliment books have came from SJG for GT for a couple of whiles now.
Me
------------------
It is not I who am crazy, it's I who am mad!
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