What were the problems with MT?

[Ranger]

Just to add my two cents worth. MT was a great effort, but I think it missed on a couple of counts which have not yet been mentioned.

First is organization. A big chunk of the rules were not even in the basic set and had to be published in the Referee's Companion.

What was also missing were aliens. After a decade of building up a great library of major and minor alien races, it was all just dropped from the basic rules. I think that was a result of the Rebellion setting, but one of the factions was supposed to be led by a Vargr. It would have been really good to include aliens in the basic rules set (at least the major races) rather than just assume everyone will play the rebellion in the core of the Imperium.

 

[Ranger]

Just to add my two cents worth. MT was a great effort, but I think it missed on a couple of counts which have not yet been mentioned.

First is organization. A big chunk of the rules were not even in the basic set and had to be published in the Referee's Companion.

What was also missing were aliens. After a decade of building up a great library of major and minor alien races, it was all just dropped from the basic rules. I think that was a result of the Rebellion setting, but one of the factions was supposed to be led by a Vargr. It would have been really good to include aliens in the basic rules set (at least the major races) rather than just assume everyone will play the rebellion in the core of the Imperium.

 

[Ranger]

Just to add my two cents worth. MT was a great effort, but I think it missed on a couple of counts which have not yet been mentioned.

First is organization. A big chunk of the rules were not even in the basic set and had to be published in the Referee's Companion.

What was also missing were aliens. After a decade of building up a great library of major and minor alien races, it was all just dropped from the basic rules. I think that was a result of the Rebellion setting, but one of the factions was supposed to be led by a Vargr. It would have been really good to include aliens in the basic rules set (at least the major races) rather than just assume everyone will play the rebellion in the core of the Imperium.

 

[Murph]

MT is a great suppliment, but they took the simple and elegant High Guard rules, and attempted to Strikerize everything. It became too much of a trial to try and design anything. Also the new rules slowed down ships due to space and fuel constraints.

The best thing about MT was that the character generation was brought up to Mercenary/High Guard/Scouts/merchants standards. However, the combat system was much less enjoyable than the Snapshot/Striker system.

AND the most damning thing about whole thing was the Rebellion, the deus ex machina Virus, the exceptionally silly Empress Wave, and the obvious desire of the GDW staff to play "Aftermath! in Space".

 

[Murph]

MT is a great suppliment, but they took the simple and elegant High Guard rules, and attempted to Strikerize everything. It became too much of a trial to try and design anything. Also the new rules slowed down ships due to space and fuel constraints.

The best thing about MT was that the character generation was brought up to Mercenary/High Guard/Scouts/merchants standards. However, the combat system was much less enjoyable than the Snapshot/Striker system.

AND the most damning thing about whole thing was the Rebellion, the deus ex machina Virus, the exceptionally silly Empress Wave, and the obvious desire of the GDW staff to play "Aftermath! in Space".

 

[Murph]

MT is a great suppliment, but they took the simple and elegant High Guard rules, and attempted to Strikerize everything. It became too much of a trial to try and design anything. Also the new rules slowed down ships due to space and fuel constraints.

The best thing about MT was that the character generation was brought up to Mercenary/High Guard/Scouts/merchants standards. However, the combat system was much less enjoyable than the Snapshot/Striker system.

AND the most damning thing about whole thing was the Rebellion, the deus ex machina Virus, the exceptionally silly Empress Wave, and the obvious desire of the GDW staff to play "Aftermath! in Space".

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The 'Feats' idea is an evolutionary appendix, like webbed toes or a vestigal tail. DnD had them, so d20 has them, so T20 has them. Trying to excise them out of the d20 system just for T20 wouldn't work, they're too intertwined.

To me, if you're going to have these, they should offer specializations or extensions of skills, not do things which one probably should be able to with the skill. You should not be able to take a feat in a skill you haven't got (exception: feats not tied to skills). Thus they'd actually become a coherent and sensible item - where you took the feat to add 'stunt driving' to your 'air raft' skill, or 'trick shot' to your 'auto pistol' skill.

Right now, it seems they might cover a lot of the same territory and do so in a confusing way.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The 'Feats' idea is an evolutionary appendix, like webbed toes or a vestigal tail. DnD had them, so d20 has them, so T20 has them. Trying to excise them out of the d20 system just for T20 wouldn't work, they're too intertwined.

To me, if you're going to have these, they should offer specializations or extensions of skills, not do things which one probably should be able to with the skill. You should not be able to take a feat in a skill you haven't got (exception: feats not tied to skills). Thus they'd actually become a coherent and sensible item - where you took the feat to add 'stunt driving' to your 'air raft' skill, or 'trick shot' to your 'auto pistol' skill.

Right now, it seems they might cover a lot of the same territory and do so in a confusing way.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The 'Feats' idea is an evolutionary appendix, like webbed toes or a vestigal tail. DnD had them, so d20 has them, so T20 has them. Trying to excise them out of the d20 system just for T20 wouldn't work, they're too intertwined.

To me, if you're going to have these, they should offer specializations or extensions of skills, not do things which one probably should be able to with the skill. You should not be able to take a feat in a skill you haven't got (exception: feats not tied to skills). Thus they'd actually become a coherent and sensible item - where you took the feat to add 'stunt driving' to your 'air raft' skill, or 'trick shot' to your 'auto pistol' skill.

Right now, it seems they might cover a lot of the same territory and do so in a confusing way.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Ranger:
Just to add my two cents worth. MT was a great effort, but I think it missed on a couple of counts which have not yet been mentioned.

First is organization. A big chunk of the rules were not even in the basic set and had to be published in the Referee's Companion.

Pardon?!!!?

What, prey tell, do you believe that most-valueless of MT products actually contained that was of any use? The research system was... interesting, but hardly necessary. Similarly the ground mass combat system was neither sufficiently well done to be a skirmish wargame nor was it sufficiently abstract as to be very fast and simple. And there were a page or two of other things here and there, but what meaningful rules were here? I think this product was something they wanted to sell and threw all the odds and ends from the bits box into.... rather than a well crafted and coherent product offering significant value.

What was also missing were aliens. After a decade of building up a great library of major and minor alien races, it was all just dropped from the basic rules. I think that was a result of the Rebellion setting, but one of the factions was supposed to be led by a Vargr. It would have been really good to include aliens in the basic rules set (at least the major races) rather than just assume everyone will play the rebellion in the core of the Imperium.

The three books were *already* bigger than the CT three books. And they spanned everything from CT book 0 through book 7 and supplement 4. Now you want them to have added Aliens Modules 1-8. Have you seen how thick the reprints are? They'd have ended up selling the boxed set for $200.

I'd have like Aliens, but I see why they were left out and though I don't have (sadly) Cats and Rats, I do have V&V and thought it was a very well done product and well worth the wait.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Ranger:
Just to add my two cents worth. MT was a great effort, but I think it missed on a couple of counts which have not yet been mentioned.

First is organization. A big chunk of the rules were not even in the basic set and had to be published in the Referee's Companion.

Pardon?!!!?

What, prey tell, do you believe that most-valueless of MT products actually contained that was of any use? The research system was... interesting, but hardly necessary. Similarly the ground mass combat system was neither sufficiently well done to be a skirmish wargame nor was it sufficiently abstract as to be very fast and simple. And there were a page or two of other things here and there, but what meaningful rules were here? I think this product was something they wanted to sell and threw all the odds and ends from the bits box into.... rather than a well crafted and coherent product offering significant value.

What was also missing were aliens. After a decade of building up a great library of major and minor alien races, it was all just dropped from the basic rules. I think that was a result of the Rebellion setting, but one of the factions was supposed to be led by a Vargr. It would have been really good to include aliens in the basic rules set (at least the major races) rather than just assume everyone will play the rebellion in the core of the Imperium.

The three books were *already* bigger than the CT three books. And they spanned everything from CT book 0 through book 7 and supplement 4. Now you want them to have added Aliens Modules 1-8. Have you seen how thick the reprints are? They'd have ended up selling the boxed set for $200.

I'd have like Aliens, but I see why they were left out and though I don't have (sadly) Cats and Rats, I do have V&V and thought it was a very well done product and well worth the wait.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Ranger:
Just to add my two cents worth. MT was a great effort, but I think it missed on a couple of counts which have not yet been mentioned.

First is organization. A big chunk of the rules were not even in the basic set and had to be published in the Referee's Companion.

Pardon?!!!?

What, prey tell, do you believe that most-valueless of MT products actually contained that was of any use? The research system was... interesting, but hardly necessary. Similarly the ground mass combat system was neither sufficiently well done to be a skirmish wargame nor was it sufficiently abstract as to be very fast and simple. And there were a page or two of other things here and there, but what meaningful rules were here? I think this product was something they wanted to sell and threw all the odds and ends from the bits box into.... rather than a well crafted and coherent product offering significant value.

What was also missing were aliens. After a decade of building up a great library of major and minor alien races, it was all just dropped from the basic rules. I think that was a result of the Rebellion setting, but one of the factions was supposed to be led by a Vargr. It would have been really good to include aliens in the basic rules set (at least the major races) rather than just assume everyone will play the rebellion in the core of the Imperium.

The three books were *already* bigger than the CT three books. And they spanned everything from CT book 0 through book 7 and supplement 4. Now you want them to have added Aliens Modules 1-8. Have you seen how thick the reprints are? They'd have ended up selling the boxed set for $200.

I'd have like Aliens, but I see why they were left out and though I don't have (sadly) Cats and Rats, I do have V&V and thought it was a very well done product and well worth the wait.

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ranger:
Just to add my two cents worth. MT was a great effort, but I think it missed on a couple of counts which have not yet been mentioned.

First is organization. A big chunk of the rules were not even in the basic set and had to be published in the Referee's Companion.

Pardon?!!!?

What, prey tell, do you believe that most-valueless of MT products actually contained that was of any use? The research system was... interesting, but hardly necessary. Similarly the ground mass combat system was neither sufficiently well done to be a skirmish wargame nor was it sufficiently abstract as to be very fast and simple. And there were a page or two of other things here and there, but what meaningful rules were here? I think this product was something they wanted to sell and threw all the odds and ends from the bits box into.... rather than a well crafted and coherent product offering significant value.

What was also missing were aliens. After a decade of building up a great library of major and minor alien races, it was all just dropped from the basic rules. I think that was a result of the Rebellion setting, but one of the factions was supposed to be led by a Vargr. It would have been really good to include aliens in the basic rules set (at least the major races) rather than just assume everyone will play the rebellion in the core of the Imperium.

The three books were *already* bigger than the CT three books. And they spanned everything from CT book 0 through book 7 and supplement 4. Now you want them to have added Aliens Modules 1-8. Have you seen how thick the reprints are? They'd have ended up selling the boxed set for $200.

I'd have like Aliens, but I see why they were left out and though I don't have (sadly) Cats and Rats, I do have V&V and thought it was a very well done product and well worth the wait. </font>[/QUOTE]I was thinking more of the in system operations rules. It seemed kind of strange that they gave all of the rules to develope very detailed star systems, and no rules for moving in system. They were in the basic rules going back to the original three books, then they got dropped. Just kind of strange.

I totally agree that unit combat was kind of a waste, and a lot of other stuff in there was just fluf of one form or the other, but there were a couple of critical things that were left out of the basic MT rules.

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ranger:
Just to add my two cents worth. MT was a great effort, but I think it missed on a couple of counts which have not yet been mentioned.

First is organization. A big chunk of the rules were not even in the basic set and had to be published in the Referee's Companion.

Pardon?!!!?

What, prey tell, do you believe that most-valueless of MT products actually contained that was of any use? The research system was... interesting, but hardly necessary. Similarly the ground mass combat system was neither sufficiently well done to be a skirmish wargame nor was it sufficiently abstract as to be very fast and simple. And there were a page or two of other things here and there, but what meaningful rules were here? I think this product was something they wanted to sell and threw all the odds and ends from the bits box into.... rather than a well crafted and coherent product offering significant value.

What was also missing were aliens. After a decade of building up a great library of major and minor alien races, it was all just dropped from the basic rules. I think that was a result of the Rebellion setting, but one of the factions was supposed to be led by a Vargr. It would have been really good to include aliens in the basic rules set (at least the major races) rather than just assume everyone will play the rebellion in the core of the Imperium.

The three books were *already* bigger than the CT three books. And they spanned everything from CT book 0 through book 7 and supplement 4. Now you want them to have added Aliens Modules 1-8. Have you seen how thick the reprints are? They'd have ended up selling the boxed set for $200.

I'd have like Aliens, but I see why they were left out and though I don't have (sadly) Cats and Rats, I do have V&V and thought it was a very well done product and well worth the wait. </font>[/QUOTE]I was thinking more of the in system operations rules. It seemed kind of strange that they gave all of the rules to develope very detailed star systems, and no rules for moving in system. They were in the basic rules going back to the original three books, then they got dropped. Just kind of strange.

I totally agree that unit combat was kind of a waste, and a lot of other stuff in there was just fluf of one form or the other, but there were a couple of critical things that were left out of the basic MT rules.

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ranger:
Just to add my two cents worth. MT was a great effort, but I think it missed on a couple of counts which have not yet been mentioned.

First is organization. A big chunk of the rules were not even in the basic set and had to be published in the Referee's Companion.

Pardon?!!!?

What, prey tell, do you believe that most-valueless of MT products actually contained that was of any use? The research system was... interesting, but hardly necessary. Similarly the ground mass combat system was neither sufficiently well done to be a skirmish wargame nor was it sufficiently abstract as to be very fast and simple. And there were a page or two of other things here and there, but what meaningful rules were here? I think this product was something they wanted to sell and threw all the odds and ends from the bits box into.... rather than a well crafted and coherent product offering significant value.

What was also missing were aliens. After a decade of building up a great library of major and minor alien races, it was all just dropped from the basic rules. I think that was a result of the Rebellion setting, but one of the factions was supposed to be led by a Vargr. It would have been really good to include aliens in the basic rules set (at least the major races) rather than just assume everyone will play the rebellion in the core of the Imperium.

The three books were *already* bigger than the CT three books. And they spanned everything from CT book 0 through book 7 and supplement 4. Now you want them to have added Aliens Modules 1-8. Have you seen how thick the reprints are? They'd have ended up selling the boxed set for $200.

I'd have like Aliens, but I see why they were left out and though I don't have (sadly) Cats and Rats, I do have V&V and thought it was a very well done product and well worth the wait. </font>[/QUOTE]I was thinking more of the in system operations rules. It seemed kind of strange that they gave all of the rules to develope very detailed star systems, and no rules for moving in system. They were in the basic rules going back to the original three books, then they got dropped. Just kind of strange.

I totally agree that unit combat was kind of a waste, and a lot of other stuff in there was just fluf of one form or the other, but there were a couple of critical things that were left out of the basic MT rules.

 

[Elliot]

Reading these boards over the past few years it strikes me that people would like a CT+ or a MT-. That is CT with the Traveller's Digest task system, the full character generation system with the tweak for the basic generation system Snapshot/Striker/AZHL combat system and High Guard. This, all in a few LBB rule books. Is this what T5 should be?

 

[Elliot]

Reading these boards over the past few years it strikes me that people would like a CT+ or a MT-. That is CT with the Traveller's Digest task system, the full character generation system with the tweak for the basic generation system Snapshot/Striker/AZHL combat system and High Guard. This, all in a few LBB rule books. Is this what T5 should be?

 

[Elliot]

Reading these boards over the past few years it strikes me that people would like a CT+ or a MT-. That is CT with the Traveller's Digest task system, the full character generation system with the tweak for the basic generation system Snapshot/Striker/AZHL combat system and High Guard. This, all in a few LBB rule books. Is this what T5 should be?

 

[kafka47]

Elliot:

I think that you have struck the nail on the head. Most individuals on this forum remain wedded to CT. Which is a good thing, as it provided the basic skeleton which to build any successful game.

Some the weird directions that Marc seems to be taking the game, in terms of career paths and complex tasks seem to be responding to what industry dictates.

Keeping It Simple Stupid or KISS seems to be a prefered option. The problem is how to integrate complexity when individuals want to build beyond those simple premises. Also, there are many people who want simply to know how the universe works on this list. That is why they want a rules escalator that will handle all those situations.

For me, and I think you, we want to see the story develop with minimal interference from the rules. So a task system like what DGP envisioned grafted on seamless play would be the objective.

Now can T5 live up to the task? I am beginning to have doubts, as I see a very workable system in T20 but just wish to simplify it to a task based system and I think we are set.

 

[kafka47]

Elliot:

I think that you have struck the nail on the head. Most individuals on this forum remain wedded to CT. Which is a good thing, as it provided the basic skeleton which to build any successful game.

Some the weird directions that Marc seems to be taking the game, in terms of career paths and complex tasks seem to be responding to what industry dictates.

Keeping It Simple Stupid or KISS seems to be a prefered option. The problem is how to integrate complexity when individuals want to build beyond those simple premises. Also, there are many people who want simply to know how the universe works on this list. That is why they want a rules escalator that will handle all those situations.

For me, and I think you, we want to see the story develop with minimal interference from the rules. So a task system like what DGP envisioned grafted on seamless play would be the objective.

Now can T5 live up to the task? I am beginning to have doubts, as I see a very workable system in T20 but just wish to simplify it to a task based system and I think we are set.