What was the concept behind T5

[Blue Ghost]

The title of the thread says it all. I kind of understand MT and the Rebellion, that is to say I understand the concept of shaking up the OTU Traveller-verse and updating the rules. I'm a little unclear on the concepts behind TNE and T4, but figure it was an attempt to update the scope of danger, and I understand GURPS Traveller theory wise to maintain an uninterrupted Imperium and Travellerverse.

But I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around T5. Can someone enlighten?

 

[tjoneslo]

The title of the thread says it all. I kind of understand MT and the Rebellion, that is to say I understand the concept of shaking up the OTU Traveller-verse and updating the rules. I'm a little unclear on the concepts behind TNE and T4, but figure it was an attempt to update the scope of danger, and I understand GURPS Traveller theory wise to maintain an uninterrupted Imperium and Travellerverse.

But I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around T5. Can someone enlighten?

T5's Galaxiad setting?

There are two. The first is to keep the story going forward. That despite multiple world ending events the universe continues. And expand the universe beyond the small corner everyone knows. Demonstrate you can continue to tell interesting stories in this universe.

Second would be to reflect some of the changes in both science and science fiction in the four decades since the original publication of Traveller. GURPS Traveller had a number of whiplash moments during the playtests because trying to reconcile the technology and attitudes of the Classic Traveller universe didn't mesh well with the more modern GURPS sensibilities. It's a complaint I've seen frequently about how GT isn't Traveller.

 

[coliver988]

Pure conjecture on my part: Marc has had a lot of ideas since the original Classic Traveller, primarily around building "modern" tool sets for the various aspects of a science fiction game that would be internally consistent from the get go. Looking over the rule sets (and I admit to not yet looking over the T5.10 rules despite having them, but I figure they are not too far from the BBB) it is a set of tool boxes that can go from light to so deep you can see the stars in broad daylight. They are designed to create as complete a universe as you like that is self-consistent in terms of the mechanics, and as deep as you like, with a more modern take on the Classic Traveller science and ideas.

 

[flykiller]

create as complete a universe as you like that is self-consistent in terms of the mechanics, and as deep as you like

that's a tall order. did it succeed?

 

[Timerover51]

At least with respect to T5.10, here is my take.

First, about a year and a half ago, Marc had a reminder that he was not immortal, and that his time on Earth was getting more limited. A triple by-pass will do that to you. Therefore, if he wanted to get out his complete concept of the Traveller Universe that was in his mind, he needed to get to work and get it out.

Second, T4 and the whole Rebellion Era left a bad taste in a lot of players mouths with respect to Traveller as a whole, and he wanted to correct that damage. The best way to do that was basically start with a entirely new rule set, which is now the Big Black Books.

Third, to keep up a revenue stream. I know, economics is a nasty word to use when it comes to gaming, but without new products on a steady basis, the revenue stream starts to dry up. Kickstarter makes it a lot easier to raise seed money for a new product, and clearly a lot of Traveller fans wanted to see a cleaned up version of T5.0.9. You might as well strike while the iron is hot.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

The title of the thread says it all.

More detailed gaming tools to make and run your own sci-fi universe more detailed than ever before, than previous editions of Traveller were able to provide.

 

[Blue Ghost]

T5's Galaxiad setting?

There are two. The first is to keep the story going forward. That despite multiple world ending events the universe continues. And expand the universe beyond the small corner everyone knows. Demonstrate you can continue to tell interesting stories in this universe.

Second would be to reflect some of the changes in both science and science fiction in the four decades since the original publication of Traveller. GURPS Traveller had a number of whiplash moments during the playtests because trying to reconcile the technology and attitudes of the Classic Traveller universe didn't mesh well with the more modern GURPS sensibilities. It's a complaint I've seen frequently about how GT isn't Traveller.

Other older SF Bay Area types will confirm that the computer tech in CT seemed a bit wonky, if not horribly dated in many ways. The computer tech base, as it developed here in the Bay Area, did seem to plateau on occasion, but it was still very much ahead of what Traveller was writing about. So I get the need to revamp the tech base, but at the same time I wonder if it couldn't be written off as flavor text in that the Vilani are just behind the curve in a lot of things.

The computer tech wasn't too much of an issue, so we played around it, but …. I don't know, I think the game seemed fine for what it was, but the hit / pen mechanic, as I've mentioned in years past, to me at least, seemed like a much needed addition when MT rolled around.

Dinner awaits....I'll post more later.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Other older SF Bay Area types will confirm that the computer tech in CT seemed a bit wonky, if not horribly dated in many ways. The computer tech base, as it developed here in the Bay Area, did seem to plateau on occasion, but it was still very much ahead of what Traveller was writing about. So I get the need to revamp the tech base, but at the same time I wonder if it couldn't be written off as flavor text in that the Vilani are just behind the curve in a lot of things.

The computer tech wasn't too much of an issue, so we played around it, but …. I don't know, I think the game seemed fine for what it was, but the hit / pen mechanic, as I've mentioned in years past, to me at least, seemed like a much needed addition when MT rolled around.

You're confusing our timeline with Traveller's. The two have nothing to do with each other.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I guess what I'm trying to convey is that we felt the computer rules were inadequate at the time, but we lived with them all the same. This was circa 1982 or thereabouts.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Thanks for the replies. I guess if I Were to rework a new edition, I might have gone back to the old 8+ 2d6 mechanic for combat and task resolution, and upscale from there. Include the hit verse penetration mechanic, but otherwise keep the damage system the same. To me Traveller is more of a security lab, and to that end you play retired veterans who take their military and other experiences into the lucrative off world security realm. To this end I might rework chargen by letting people start as either a grade schooler or -re-teen, and create adventures that catered to the likes of rescuing animals, finding lost people, treating someone who had been bitten by some exotic creature or the like.

So, in this way you could start out at 18 (as per D&D and other RPGs), and have advenures oriented towards your experience while serving in the navy r local militia or something. And instead of experience, you'd get money, and maybe something like EXP to be applied to your skills. So that if you were a pre-teen or younger, and were part of a Cub Scout like entity that went out and gave first aid or fending off super sized hyper-wolves of Cygnus Five with Daisy 22s or shotguns, you could gain both something to put on your dossier, money from a grateful family or town, and some kind of skill oriented EXP.

To me, that would epitomize a "final edition" of the Traveller system that could reach out and be more appealing to a broader audience, and also be backwards compatible with T4, ENE, GT and CT.

To this end it could have held onto the old starship rules, the old Alien races without being reworked as per Mongoose (I haven' read any of what Mongoose has done, so I'm not really criticizing whatever they've done, but am perhaps thinking the aliens in their original form might be better off as opposed to being tweaked).

I get the need to update the tech though.

I think this would allow younger players, money would be more well defined as it would be really worth something; i.e. that high school team on an outing is not as wealthy as that boatload of midshipmen who are hunting a small time pirate band that use a type-S for their raiding).

Just my opinion. I'm not happy with chargen for T5. I think Traveller has always been hamstrung by its limitations. But, it is what it is.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

If there are kids that are interested in tabletop role-playing or adventure gaming for sci-fi that isn't Star Wars, they have lots of Traveller editions to choose from. The wiki does a good job of explaining the systems and settings used by each one.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, "back in the day", the game was always at the back of the store with al the other scifi RPGs and scifi warsims in its own black coated rack that held the little black books. People discovered it and played it, and it developed a following. But it's never taken off like a D&D or any of the other big or moderately successful RPGs, or so it appears on the surface.

I bring up kids because other forum members have posted about how they've played with their families, or more specifically their kids. And where you don't need to be a child to play, creating a character that's either eighteen years or younger, and letting them develop like a D&D character, might put the game in a new light for a newer generation.

I kind of get Traveller now after all these decades, and still think the old classic system was robust enough that it only needed a few tweaks to put it into D&D popularity to really keep it thriving. So, that's what I've posted about.

I wasn't quite sure why T5 came around, so I posted this topic.

 

[ThornPlutonius]

I think Traveller has always been hamstrung by its limitations. But, it is what it is.

Traveller's longevity tends to prove that one person's limitation is another's feature.

It is, indeed, what it is, with all of its warts and all of its glory.

Now, about T5.10's Melee Combat rules...(grrrrrrr)

 

[aramis]

Well, "back in the day", the game was always at the back of the store with al the other scifi RPGs and scifi warsims in its own black coated rack that held the little black books. People discovered it and played it, and it developed a following. But it's never taken off like a D&D or any of the other big or moderately successful RPGs, or so it appears on the surface.

I bring up kids because other forum members have posted about how they've played with their families, or more specifically their kids. And where you don't need to be a child to play, creating a character that's either eighteen years or younger, and letting them develop like a D&D character, might put the game in a new light for a newer generation.

I kind of get Traveller now after all these decades, and still think the old classic system was robust enough that it only needed a few tweaks to put it into D&D popularity to really keep it thriving. So, that's what I've posted about.

I wasn't quite sure why T5 came around, so I posted this topic.

CT sold more than 170,000 core set units, not counting the post 2000 reprints.
I don't recall if that's just Book 1-3 boxes, or includes Deluxe boxes, TTB and Starter. (Someone check the BFBs! Marc listed the sales numbers in one of them.)

Pretty much only D&D sold more in the 1977-1987 timeframe of CT. In the 80's, there was no game store I went to that didn't support Traveller to some level. That counts stores in Alaska, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, and Florida.

Traveller was also one of the few games most gamers I met knew of... even if they didn't play it. Most D&D players knew that Boot HIll existed, because there were conversions in the PHB.
Most comic readers were aware of Star Frontiers - it was HEAVILY advertised in Marvel products - and maybe Gang Busters (it was in a few select comics). I don't recall seeing adverts outside of Dragon Magazine for MSH/AMSH, not even in Marvel comics, but I wasn't collecting nor regularly reading at the time it came out.

I'd lay odds that WEG's lifetime sales of d6 Star Wars cores compare closely to Traveller's lifetime sales.

But WEG, MSH, and 2300 all mark a major shift in gaming: A move to single mechanic systems.

Traveller never truly dropped to unknown... But the much smaller print runs of later Traveller show that GDW wasn't hitting the mark with the newer gamers.

T5 is Marc doing rules with a unified mechanic, and the modularity that CT had... but putting it all in one set.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, that explains some things. Back when the game was new and evolving, the two primary game stores I went to, from left to right, had a minis glass display, then the ziplock and peg board games like Task Force and Steve Jackson, then next to that was Traveller in a book rack that was black coated. Then the door to the stock room, and then D&D and its modules, James Bond, FASA and some other stuff I can't remember …. Champions / HERO? It's been too long.

D&D took up the entire back wall with all of its many modules. Below it were things like GDW's board games like Imperium, or the FASA Starport module and starship deckplans. D&D was the big golden boy, and if you looked at shelf space, product placement, and the art put into the D&D modules, it appeared that D&D was just skyrocketing in terms of success.

Star Frontiers was also there, Gamma World too, but they seemed to linger in spite of a really glossy presentation.

I spoke with the guy who runs the Star Frontiers website, and apparently that game is schedule to try and make a come back sometime soon. I never got into it because it seemed like it had issues. I liked Traveller because it was grounded, open ended at the time with an option setting. But now I'm just repeating past thoughts.

Anyway, I'm glad mister Miller is putting out a new revitalized and complete edition. I guess I wasn't sure if there was a new "virus" disaster looming on the frontier, or whatever. Good to hear. Thanks.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

When I was a kid Traveller was sold in any store that also sold board games and model kits and model rockets and cox engine toys. Basically, hobbies/crafts stores.

I had to go to a dedicated GDW dealer shop in town if I wanted to by AHL or Imperium though.

 

[robject]

I know I remember seeing a statement from Marc that was more or less an answer to "why T5".

Part of the answer has to do with absorbing and assimilating a lot of good Traveller concepts that came out over the past years. One example of that assimilation is the essays on "How X Works", which explain starship components in a crunchy amount of depth that reminds me of DGP's SOM.

But that's tangential. I think the root-level question was already sufficiently answered earlier in this thread.

A pat answer would be: what started as fixes to T4 ended up in sweeping changes that resulted in T5. This was apparent relatively early on.

 

[Condottiere]

I've always wondered how you can squeeze sixteen missiles, four launchers, four loaders/elevators, fire control, and an astronaut into fourteen cubic metres.

 

[robject]

I've always wondered how you can squeeze sixteen missiles, four launchers, four loaders/elevators, fire control, and an astronaut into fourteen cubic metres.

Magic.

 

[Blue Ghost]

There's a spell book in T5?