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What TL equals a god?

DaveChase

SOC-14 1K
In another thread of mine a poster was suggestion the technology I listed as being high 20’s or even in the TL 30+ range.

This sparked my curiosity a bit because I did not think that what I listed was that high,. (not disagreeing with the offered suggestions :) )

So, to a TL 1 individual who has never known any other TL levels, what TL level would look like a god to them.

A TL 8 individual, who maybe has read SciFi and dreams, what TL level would look/act like a god to them

I ask because I wonder at what point would a TL advance society stop thinking of more advance societies as god and more as just another over the top advance society.

If the Imperium is average TL 13 with known TL 15 tech, how would it perceive a TL 35 culture.

(I have my own ideas, but I would like to hear what others have to say too. :) )

Dave Chase
 
Warning - long winded drivel follows.

The trouble with the TL scale is that we can only really comprehend what has gone before.

We can make conjecture about how the technologies we have may mature, but a TL jump should represent more than that IMHO.

I've posted this before, but before Maxwell's equations showed the link between magnetism, electricity and light NO ONE KNEW RADIO RAVES WERE POSSIBLE.

Now imagine that for a moment, you are a Victorian scientist/engineer. You understand the steam engine, metallurgy (more on this in a moment), electricity and magnetism. But you do not even know radio waves are a possibility, let alone everything we now have that uses radio, microwave etc.

So assuming we are a TL7 society now - what will TL8 look like? Fusion power plants? Sorry but they are not a TL jump, the scientific theory is well understood it's the engineering challenge that we are currently struggling with.

What will TL9 look like? Gravity manipulation, jump drive?

Hardly a change of world view. And this is the principle failing of the Traveller TL chart - TLs are not world shifting paradigms. I actually think the GURPS TL scale is better, even the TL progression in TSR's Alternity game has bigger advances than the Traveller TL scale.

What actually changes between TL9 and 15?

Jump drives get better, power plants get smaller, these are not breakthroughs.

Nuclear damper technology, "meson" weapons and screens - now these are breakthroughs. Nuclear damper tech allows manipulation of the strong and weak nuclear forces - this is new science the implications of which are hardly even touched on.

The human race existed at TL0-1 for 110,000 years plus or minus a few thousand. Every time you have a major technological breakthrough you have a new way of understanding and manipulating the world around us. The Traveller TL scale could easily become:

0-7 historical through to today.
8 - fusion, bio-engineering, nano materials
9 - grav manipulation, jump drive
10 - nuclear damper tech
11 - "meson" technology

still a way to go before we get to 15 =)
 
I ask because I wonder at what point would a TL advance society stop thinking of more advance societies as god and more as just another over the top advance society.
Probably not fair to lump all people of a TL together. Someone educated in science would possibly have one view while someone else might consider the technology of their own time "magic" that they can't comprehend.

I don't know how to discuss religion and gods without breaking the forum rules and possibly offending people.
 
I am going to go a different route and say this isnt a question of technology but a cultural and philosophical one of understanding your place. I cant go to far into this without breaking rules, but some how I dont think someone showing up saying I am A GOD worship me is going to get to far. This is not because we aren't afraid of their technology but because philosophically we reject it as a possibility unless they follow the idea of A GOD we already worship.

So going into space and opening up Grandfather Tomb and him saying bow down and worship me would get a big laugh, until he blast you with an antimatter time bending sonic screwdriver. The people may bow down in servitude but not in worship. Big difference.

Technology can create aww and it can create terror but it cannot create worship when people understand their place in the environment.
 
I am going to go a different route and say this isnt a question of technology but a cultural and philosophical one of understanding your place. I cant go to far into this without breaking rules, but some how I dont think someone showing up saying I am A GOD worship me is going to get to far. This is not because we aren't afraid of their technology but because philosophically we reject it as a possibility unless they follow the idea of A GOD we already worship.

...

This is along the lines I was thinking.

There is no TL chart or breakdown in social/society thought process/training.

I think, there fore I am, and until you prove to me that you can think more than me, we are equals.

After a point in history and society, it will take more than that to prove that you are a god.

I use the term god, loosely in my question because
1) I was trying to not push the forum rules too hard
2) the stereotypical, god comedies we have seen in movies and books where someone of higher thinking? and technology, oooohhs and aaaahs the local backward people
3) trying to figure out the culture shock that one might exhibit if they were suddenly forced to face that which they believe to impossible (which over time and tech increase, would drop dramaticly in my opinion).

IMO, if some one could fly in space with out any obvious lifesupport in space, could withstand cannon/tank round point blank/5km out, and do several other extremely remarkable things like that, plus know things (tech knowledge) that we don't understand but are actually possible:

In today's world, I do think that a small portion of the population would 'worship' (used very loosely) that individual
Back 50-200 years ago, possibly the same but might instead think that they were the devil (loosely defined evil)
Back 1000 years or more, would consider the individual a god (of sorts depending on culture and how the person acted, TV show Stargate based on this concept slightly).

So taking this forward, this same individual would be thought as a fool, a very powerful fool in 50 years in the future,
100-200 years in the future, they might be consider a dangerous fool but people might play along to try and learn more about the nice tech marvels the individual is displaying

Please note: I am only using the OTU TL charts as a general reference for this discussion. Not as a hard fast, must follow it or show how its inadequate for guaging tech levels.

Again, This thought process got started when some tech background I presented in another thread got the general listing of TL's higher than what I was thinking. It started me wondering what would the general population impression if exposed suddenly to such difference of TL than their daily lives. Speaking of 10 to 20 levels difference.

One of the Star Trek movies briefly touched upon this as a side joke when Bones was trying to heal Chekov in the 20th century.

Dave Chase
 
No discussion of current real-world religions on the forums. Traveller religions are ok.

Ah, but it's hard to discuss anything with out referencing that which we know.

I was hoping to avoid religion per say in this thread, since I was more interested in population reaction to what may or may not be considered a god.

:)

But good reminder for us.

Dave Chase
 
T5 TL33 = indistinguishable from a god...
You can create and manipulate matter
You are effectively immortal - till heat death of universe (and maybe into the birth of the next one)
You can travel anywhere immediately
Fundamental knowledge of the universe is yours
You have reached singularity....
 
what TL a god?

To a teck level 0-1 todays tech would be god like. Because they do not have the knowledge or background for this type of tech.

For Us it is more difficult because of the various ideas around in one form or another. For example Star Trek. So we have some knowledge of FTL travel if not the mechanics. The same for other things. Books will haave other ideas that people will know about - nanoteck,robots, lasers etc.

So much of travellers tech will only be an advance of present 'knowledge'.

so a god like future will need to inlcude things that , we at present, are either dimly aware of or have no knowledge about so in travellers terms as was post earlier tech level 30 or higher with interdimensional travel etc
 
To discuss this at all, we need to define godhood.
IMO this will depend on the eye of the beholder. a TL0 barbarian will accept 'godhood' at a lower TL than a TL7 astronaut.

Here are five simple tests for an 'entity' to see if it's a god. The list is not intended to be exhaustive.

1. Is it immortal? If it has a measurable lifespan, it's not a god.
2. Can it be killed? If a way can be found to kill it, then it is a living being, not a god.
3. Can it perform magic? If it's actions can be demonstrated to be explainable by the laws of nature, it is not a god.
4. Does it hold sway over the environment? Can it control weather, tides, etc? If not, it's not a god.
5. Are all components of its UPP higher than 15 (ie superhuman)? if not, it's not a god.

Now these items can perhaps be mastered by technology, but probably way above TL15 even from the POV of the Barbarian.

1. Anagathics
2. Good question. Armour won't suffice - even the barbarian understands armour, and gods don't need it. An invisible force field would be a minimum here.
3 Clarkean magic is possible, or Psionics.
4 Another good question. You might be able to fool someone with a set piece demonstration, but...
5 Possibly achievable with implants

My guess would be at least 20-30 TLs above the observer, and it may not be linear. We don't have the necessary descriptions above TL15. And with good reason. Anything we TL7ers could conceive of in terms of technological progress would, by definition, fall short of godhood for us - ie if we can put a TL on it it is technology rather than divinity and it would fail test 3.

Having said that (without discussing any religion, just discussing human nature) there are any number of people on Earth today who are perfectly willing to accept that another human is either a god, a son of a god, or speaks on behalf of a god - even when the other person is demonstrably human and of the same TL, so perhaps all bets are off...
 
To discuss this at all, we need to define godhood. ...
Yeah. Especially in the context of Traveller - and one I used in a game before! :devil: - the definition of 'goodhood' is dependent on a culture.

I recall being told (whether truth or not) that the Spanish Conquistadors were seen upon initial contact as gods by native South Americans as they wore reflective armor and had four legs (rode horses) - thus matching religious accounts of 'gods'.

By some definitions 'a god' simply possess 'superhuman powers' and/or controls things and perhaps is not all seeing/knowing or powerful, nor immortal. In all cases, perhaps construed as deserving worship or fear?
 
There's three ways to godhood, I think:

1) Fulfill prophecy (the "Missionaria Protectiva" rule).
2) The massaging of a real person's deeds until they become superhuman. In this case the person can specifically have denied they were superhuman, much less a god but it might happen anyway.
3) By doing "impossible" things that are not well-explained (ignorance).

Since #1 and #2 don't really involve technology, I'll just discuss #3.

I'd like to give a "TL gap" rule ("if you're X TLs above your observer you're a god") but given how "tight" the Traveller TL chart gets past about TL5 or so, I don't think it's possible.

Impossible When beings do something that is considered "impossible" they are on their way to godhood. By "impossible" I mean violation of the "known" natural laws of the time in a fashion that many people in the observing culture would agree is "impossible." A culture where everyone believes with the correct knowledge and resources anything is possible will probably be pretty hard to convince you're a god.

Instantly It helps a lot if your impossible deed is done in a short period of time, preferably "instantly." Being able to de-age someone is impressive enough. Touching an old man, a flash of light, then he's a young man is vastly more impressive than using magic that will de-age him over the course of months.

Ignorance: Also, you can't explain what you're doing, at least in a fashion the people would understand. Of course, the biggest no-no is explaining that with the proper knowledge and tools anyone can do this. You don't even have to speak to your potential worshipers; you can just ignore them and continue to turn mountains into plains (in search of Lanthanum but they don't need to know that). In fact, this helps often helps. Most humans are secretly egotists and masochists, so we love to be spurned or ignored by our superiors who have better things to do than to explain what they're doing, since this is our tendency given the opportunity and envy is a great way to generate worship.

Typical impossible things: Flight through air, manipulation of matter without visible contact, visible "mastery" of natural forces considered uncontrollable (like lightning or driving off the evil spirit eating the sun), knowledge of distant events in "real time", reading people's thoughts, bringing people back from the dead, de-aging, healing of afflictions considered incurable, or perpetual youth.

For instance, in many lower tech cultures, the idea of a person flying through the air is impossible. Therefore, regardless of if that person has a "flying chariot" or not, a being that can fly through the air is on his or her way to godhood. You can explain that your airplane is not really a mechanism of your godhood, you could even show them the physics textbook explaining how it works (provided they don't understand the math), but without fully explaining it they're still in "ignorance." Even in a higher TL culture with airplanes, you could probably impress a lot of people if you could just jump into the air and fly off without any visible equipment.

Please note, some people reading this will say, "you could just be a 'demon' or a 'spirit'" but the dividing line between a 'powerful spirit' and a 'god' gets pretty hazy; both are worshiped and/or appeased. Different cultures will have different names for "gods" - that a being is treated with awestruck reverence/favor currying (worship) and fear of offending the being is my definition of godhood.

1. Is it immortal? If it has a measurable lifespan, it's not a god.
2. Can it be killed? If a way can be found to kill it, then it is a living being, not a god.

I agree with most of your points except these two. While forum rules forbid me from mentioning specific religions, we had (and have) religions on this Earth where their higher beings are specifically able to be killed or die through other means.

In some cases they may be reborn, but in others once they die, that's it. This does not prevent them from being considered higher beings, however and indeed their deaths may be necessary as part of some "end times" battle or the regeneration of the cosmos.
 
Thanks for the discussion. This is good food for thought.

I have nothing to add right now, but wow, I do enjoy reading people's thought on this.

Dave Chase
 
I think part of the issue here is once a culture reaches a certain TL and has a scientific view of the universe the belief in gods becomes a matter of faith for the individual.

Having an alien arrive on the scene with unexplainable powers wouldn't make them seen as a god, just a super advanced alien with technology we need to "borrow".
 
I think part of the issue here is once a culture reaches a certain TL and has a scientific view of the universe the belief in gods becomes a matter of faith for the individual.

Having an alien arrive on the scene with unexplainable powers wouldn't make them seen as a god, just a super advanced alien with technology we need to "borrow".

If the alien is seen to perform its magic with technology, yes. I think an important factor in godhood is being able to work magic without tools.
eg instead of arriving in a ship (TL0 have ships, if only coracles) the being appears with a personal Jump field.
Instead of killing someone with a fire-stick, the being kills with a gesture.
Instead of flying in an 'air-boat', the being levitates (grav belt under his robe)
Instead of his wearing armour, weapons aimed at the being hit an invisible barrier.

Clarkean godhood would probably depend on technology not looking like technology - hence my thought that if we can conceive of the technology, we wouldn't assume it to be divine.

'Divine' technology has to be inconceivable for the observer.
 
What you describe could easily be achieved by a Culture TL suit.

And all of it has rules in CT, you have to borrow from the psionics section for some of it though.

I'm pretty sure that an android could be grown with all the technology internalised.

Above TL15 definitely, but a god?

A "psionic" android.
 
Then perhaps the Culture TL is the 'divine TL' the OP was looking for.

The fact that it has rules in CT probably means that a TL7 observer would 'disbelieve' the being's divinity, even if a TL0 observer would accept it.

Interesting that you perhaps have to go with a non-human to achieve the desired effect. AI androids being worshipped as gods has been done in sci fi before.

Are psionic androids possible?
 
Please note, some people reading this will say, "you could just be a 'demon' or a 'spirit'" but the dividing line between a 'powerful spirit' and a 'god' gets pretty hazy; both are worshiped and/or appeased. Different cultures will have different names for "gods" - that a being is treated with awestruck reverence/favor currying (worship) and fear of offending the being is my definition of godhood.
Witches, warlocks, zombies, werewolves, vampires, cult leaders, one of a kind athletes.... Perhaps there is room for someone/something to be specially different and worshiped or feared without being a god and this can include inconceivable acts and abilities due to TL difference.

1. Is it immortal? If it has a measurable lifespan, it's not a god.
2. Can it be killed? If a way can be found to kill it, then it is a living being, not a god.
3. Can it perform magic? If it's actions can be demonstrated to be explainable by the laws of nature, it is not a god.
4. Does it hold sway over the environment? Can it control weather, tides, etc? If not, it's not a god.
5. Are all components of its UPP higher than 15 (ie superhuman)? if not, it's not a god.
Hmm, I wonder why Superman isn't depicted as a god.

For one non tech culture, being able to fly in a chariot would be cause to be considered a god because only a god could create and use such a device. In another non tech culture, they may wish they possessed the magical device used to fly and may fear the person who possesses an array of magical devices but don't otherwise think them special. In yet another, the person flying and their device are thought of as evil abominations.
 
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Then perhaps the Culture TL is the 'divine TL' the OP was looking for.

The fact that it has rules in CT probably means that a TL7 observer would 'disbelieve' the being's divinity, even if a TL0 observer would accept it.

Interesting that you perhaps have to go with a non-human to achieve the desired effect. AI androids being worshipped as gods has been done in sci fi before.

Are psionic androids possible?
Well I was going to suggest bio-engineering the machinery into a human.

IMTU it goes something like this (apologies if you've seen this before)

jump drive in ships

jump drives in battle dress

jump drives worn as an article of clothing or jewellery

jump dive implants

jump drives hidden in junk DNA and automatically replicated upon reproduction.

As you can see the TL jumps are a bit steep. For jump drive you can substitute just about any Traveller technology you care to mention. And it should be obvious from this that IMTU psionics aren't magic, they are molecular sized machines built into our DNA by the Ancients.
 
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