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What is the CEP of traveller beam weapons?

There are quite probably millions of asteroids out there that are similar in mass to a ship that would give you quite a confusing picture. And as far as we can tell, gravity (or at least information about changes in space-time distortion) also travels at the speed of light like EM radiation.

Granted, most asteroids won't be emitting other forms of radiation though ;).

Incidentally, neutrinos from a fusion reaction will also be emitted radially, so even if one could distinguish the neutrinos from a ship's fusion reactor from the background noise emitted by the local star (and other reactors, not to mention the ship's own reactor which is right next to the neutrino detector), there probably wouldn't be enough to actually be detectable at interplanetary distances anyway.

Yes I was thinking the same thing about neutrinos, though there could be a general "intensity" factor or maybe not, I don't know. I'm not so arrogant to say I'm doing anything more than a semi-educated guess, I have taken university level physics however.

About mass distortions, the asteroids would not be as likely to be moving in the velocity of a ship, or a fleet for sure. One thing I haven't seen in Traveller is having to avoid any asteroids, planetismals or such. Even dust would be a major hazard, I just think of handwavium that ships have a thin replusor field that clears small objects away from it.
 
There are quite probably millions of asteroids out there that are similar in mass to a ship that would give you quite a confusing picture. And as far as we can tell, gravity (or at least information about changes in space-time distortion) also travels at the speed of light like EM radiation.

And plenty of those might be reflective false targets as heat sources, but probably not many. But that's something else to confound those IR sensors.


Incidentally, neutrinos from a fusion reaction will also be emitted radially, so even if one could distinguish the neutrinos from a ship's fusion reactor from the background noise emitted by the local star (and other reactors, not to mention the ship's own reactor which is right next to the neutrino detector), there probably wouldn't be enough to actually be detectable at interplanetary distances anyway.

Which is why I pointed out a meson screen designed to mask the OUTGOING emissions from the reactors would possibly work to help hide the ship since meson screens to stop INCOMING mesons exist. And canon from other sources do point out a meson sensor as sensing and targeting systems in this game.

Some people just don't have an imagination and also don't seem to realize we are talking about an RPG in the genre of sci-fi....where, if we can imagine it, it can exist (to paraphrase Descartes - oh, look I have an education!).

As it is we are arguing here over concepts that either don't exist yet as they do in the game (or not at all, or never will) where no one seems to have a problem imagining talking starfish and uplifted German Shepherd pirates. Seems a little odd to me that with that in ind the knives come out when the more imaginative people want to add another imagined (albeit quite reasonable and rational) technology to the game in order to add another dimension to some part of it. Even if its just as a gednakenexperiment.

Which uplifted doggies and space-faring centaurs surely are.
 
One thing I haven't seen in Traveller is having to avoid any asteroids, planetismals or such. Even dust would be a major hazard, I just think of handwavium that ships have a thin replusor field that clears small objects away from it.

Curious omission, that, I noticed that especially after HG came out and still lacked any kind of force field other than the BG. Maybe there's extra armor on the nose that has to get repainted once in a while after all the pounding and sanding it gets. ;)
 
Curious omission, that, I noticed that especially after HG came out and still lacked any kind of force field other than the BG. Maybe there's extra armor on the nose that has to get repainted once in a while after all the pounding and sanding it gets. ;)

Yes it's quite odd, but not serious. Better to focus creative energies towards more interesing ends. Though in general, Traveller starships are doing an enormous amount of tasks, pretty amazing if you think about it. Ah day dreaming about starships.
 
Curious omission, that, I noticed that especially after HG came out and still lacked any kind of force field other than the BG. Maybe there's extra armor on the nose that has to get repainted once in a while after all the pounding and sanding it gets. ;)

MT addressed this issue with having ships have a minimum of 40 armor to deal with micrometeors.
 
MT addressed this issue with having ships have a minimum of 40 armor to deal with micrometeors.

I don't play MT.....but the armor factor of 40 is exactly the factor for an unarmored ship's hull in Striker so I figured that. But there isn't anything to cover all those pesky details on it: like velocity and mass of the micrometeors relative to the ship's....number of them (what about a really dense amount of them - can there be a degradation effect over time? Bonded superdense probably will put up with more over time than crystaliron).....

...too niggling to worry about anyway. I just had a picture flash in my mind of hundreds of sailors in vaccsuits out polishing and repainting the nose of a battleship after it gets all the paint worn off flying around when Dragoner mentioned the oddity.
 
I just had a picture flash in my mind of hundreds of sailors in vaccsuits out polishing and repainting the nose of a battleship after it gets all the paint worn off flying around when Dragoner mentioned the oddity.

Yep, I don't think paint would be regular feature on ships. Sandblasting is right.
The space shuttle has to replace its windshield after every flight due to this.
 
And plenty of those might be reflective false targets as heat sources, but probably not many. But that's something else to confound those IR sensors.

Well they're not really emitting heat on their own anyway (unless they're very young and loaded with still-decaying short-lived radioisotopes in their interiors perhaps). Most asteroids are going to be far from their star and inert though.

Which is why I pointed out a meson screen designed to mask the OUTGOING emissions from the reactors would possibly work to help hide the ship since meson screens to stop INCOMING mesons exist. And canon from other sources do point out a meson sensor as sensing and targeting systems in this game.

Except that neutrinos aren't mesons, so meson screens wouldn't help much ;). That said, neutrinos don't generally like interacting with any matter at all (unless there's a lot of it, like a huge underground chamber shielded from other radiation and filled with liquid and lined with sensors). They need to somehow be forced to interact with matter that they'd otherwise pass straight through, probably using some kind of nuclear damper technology (even then, are neutrinos affected by strong or weak nuclear forces?). I wonder if it's even possible to identify neutrinos that come from a star vs neutrino that come from an artiificial fusion reactor.

Some people just don't have an imagination and also don't seem to realize we are talking about an RPG in the genre of sci-fi....where, if we can imagine it, it can exist (to paraphrase Descartes - oh, look I have an education!).

I was under the impression that the OP actually wanted to discuss the physical realities (as we currently understand them) of how to target lasers and sense targets. That in itself is a very interesting subject I think, and I think we would be well served to actually think about it realistically so we can understand where the flawed/incorrect assumptions are being made. After that, then by all means break out the imagination to attempt to get around such issues.

Even 'gravitic focussing" of lasers and beam weapons is highly suspect. What's being focussed exactly? How is that preventing the beam from naturally widening with distance from the source? You'd need a massive gravitational field running the whole length of the laser beam itself to warp space enough to keep it as a linear beam. And even if you turn a spotlight-like laser source into a pinpoint beam at its source, it's still going to disperse with distance. While it's mentioned in TNE, the technology isn't really described there at all, it's just stated that it is required to magically keep the beam tight enough to do damage at great distance.
 
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Well they're not really emitting heat on their own anyway (unless they're very young and loaded with still-decaying short-lived radioisotopes in their interiors perhaps). Most asteroids are going to be far from their star and inert though.

Well, I suppose the reflective heat I was thinking of wouldn't be enough then.


Except that neutrinos aren't mesons, so meson screens wouldn't help much ;). That said, neutrinos don't generally like interacting with any matter at all (unless there's a lot of it, like a huge underground chamber shielded from other radiation and filled with liquid and lined with sensors). They need to somehow be forced to interact with matter that they'd otherwise pass straight through, probably using some kind of nuclear damper technology (even then, are neutrinos affected by strong or weak nuclear forces?). I wonder if it's even possible to identify neutrinos that come from a star vs neutrino that come from an artiificial fusion reactor.

Oh crap...that's what I meant: neutrino sensor....they are sensors and seeker packages for missiles in various places in Traveller (like the special missile supplement)! I got it confused with meson communicator . Sorry about that. Oh, so many particles - so little time.


I was under the impression that the OP actually wanted to discuss the physical realities (as we currently understand them) of how to target lasers and sense targets. That in itself is a very interesting subject I think, and I think we would be well served to actually think about it realistically so we can understand where the flawed/incorrect assumptions are being made. After that, then by all means break out the imagination to attempt to get around such issues.

No doubt - I just wasn't referring to the original poster. I have done similar examinations and "symposiums" on threads I started or participated in involving biology, evolutionary biology, genetics, and things I can discuss with a lot less hand waving and "oh, can't we just say it does this and play the game" being involved without everyone going to guns over it.

For some reason it's the starship stuff that really gets everyone's blood boiling.

Even 'gravitic focussing" of lasers and beam weapons is highly suspect. What's being focussed exactly? How is that preventing the beam from naturally widening with distance from the source? You'd need a massive gravitational field running the whole length of the laser beam itself to warp space enough to keep it as a linear beam. And even if you turn a spotlight-like laser source into a pinpoint beam at its source, it's still going to disperse with distance. While it's mentioned in TNE, the technology isn't really described there at all, it's just stated that it is required to magically keep the beam tight enough to do damage at great distance.

I agree and go further: it the gravitic beam is that powerful then why not just use it as the weapon and forget the laser - just pound the enemy to pieces with a series of gigantic replusor arrays alternating firing? Between that and meson guns going off inside no ship could be armored (buffered planetoid or not) enough before it fell apart. It would even contribute to it's own destruction by dodging around at high G - that would just add even more stresses to the ship's integrity.

Well, as a great man said, "Science sufficiently advanced will appear as magic to the less advanced." I think at TL-15 it's sufficiently advanced for any kind of magic we want. We just don't need to shoot each other over pet ideas is all I was getting at.
 
Taking it a step further, so far we have:

Flux density of 1GW reactor at 1 AU: 3.54e-15 W/m²
Flux density of 1GW reactor at 100,000 km: 7.96e-9 W/m²
Flux density of G V star at 4.3 ly: 1.87e-8 W/m²

Now, how do sensors work? They detect photons. To detect something, your detector needs to be able to absorb enough photons from the source to get a meaningful signal.

How many photons per square metre (per second) do these numbers translate to?

Watts are Joules per second. We can find the energy of a single photon easily enough, using E= hc/lambda where h = Planck's constant (6.626068e-34 m².kg/s), c = speed of light (3e8 m/s) and lambda = wavelength of the photon (assuming it's all IR, let's call it 500 nm, or 5e-7 m).

So the energy of an IR photon is 3.976e-19 J.

Taking the 1GW reactor, each square metre of detector at 1 AU distance receives 3.54e-15 Joules per second. Divide that by the energy of a photon and we'll get the
number of photons striking the detector. That turns out to be about 8900 photons per square metre per second.

For the 1GW reactor with a sensor at 100,000 km, that goes up to... rather a lot. 2e10 photons per square metre per second.

For Alpha Centauri, it's even higher of course - 4.7e10 photons per square metre per second.

Putting it that way, I suspect that Alpha Centauri, and a ship with a 1 GW reactor at 100,000 km distance should show up pretty well on a metre-scale IR sensor.

I'm not so convinced about a 1 GW reactor at 1 AU distance though. This is where my understanding of sensors breaks down though. 8900 photons per second per m² isn't a lot, and spreading that out over a square metre would mean that each individual pixel of the CCD sensor would be getting very few (if any) photons.

Heck, I'm not even sure that 2e10 photons/s/m² is that high when it comes to detectability. There are all sorts of factors involved - diffraction, dark current, signal to noise, conversion of photons to electrical signal to register on the sensor, etc. I did find a very technical document about how sensors work at http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12896&page=23 which may be of some use to people with more background in that topic.

Detectability aside, there are clearly other concerns here. The sensor would need to be kept supercool to be able to detect anything. The detector would have to be rather large too (and probably have some means of focussing photons, like a big telescope). As it happens, the NASA Spitzer telescope is essentially a big IR detector, and that's four metres tall, kept supercool, and has a mirror about 85 cm in radius. But that's on a stable platform in orbit, with very few stresses on it. Put that on a spacecraft that's accelerating all over the place and it's probably not going to last that long.

And again, it's a matter of knowing where to look for your IR-emitting target in the first place. A telescope has a limited field of view, and a full sweep of the sky won't be possible to do on a mobile spacecraft in a short time at the required resolution.

It may not be impossible to detect spacecraft via IR (and I never claimed that it was), but I think this and my other calculations show that they aren't necessarily blindingly obvious, and that more often than not at long ranges it certainly will be very difficult to do from a sensor mounted on a spacecraft in Traveller.
 
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<phew> Ok so with all the postings that were off track over with now, let's see if we can come to an agreement on the subject of a reasonable CEP for a beam weapon using today's technology and then extrapolate from there.

Examples of beam foccussing: CERN collider nanometer scale accuracy over the distance of a few meters from the focussing magnets to the collision chambers.
Airborne laser platforms foccusing lasers on specific spots on an aircraft or missile, demonstrated range in the 10's of KM, able to hit the leading edge of a wing or control surface. This one is particularrly germain to the issue as it's a mobile platform. They actually use 4 laser systems with different frequencies to achieve the shot, one to map the hull, and a 2nd to keep exact range and bearing, a third to ionize the beam path, and then the 4th is the actual weapon shot. The ionized path is actually used to maintain the focus and intensity of the weapon beam.
 
Ya'know - even without all the math just common sense will bring you to the same conclusion.

Space is kinda big and you can't look everywhere at once, and at the distances we are talking about from Trav's combat rules (which I intuit might be a bit whacking too far, but whatever) I would be amazed that until everyone was either so close they could hear each other without the time and distance lag (which then relative velocities would bodge up further),

or you knew EXACTLY where to look in that vast spherical area I don't see how you would ever even know a fleet was out there until it started shooting, or was so big it was practically it's own gravity well.
 
Just remember: cosmic background is 3.01E-06 W/m^2... (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/class/P3401Hw3.html)

Fusor's calculation (which looks correct, but I'm not double checking his math) gives (3.54e-15 W/m²) for a 1Gw ship emission... 1E9 less than background.

Even in deep space, at 1 AU, you're not going to see it against the background except in certain frequencies with very sensitive instruments. Now, it's also going to radiate in visual...
 
Airborne laser platforms foccusing lasers on specific spots on an aircraft or missile, demonstrated range in the 10's of KM, able to hit the leading edge of a wing or control surface. This one is particularrly germain to the issue as it's a mobile platform. They actually use 4 laser systems with different frequencies to achieve the shot, one to map the hull, and a 2nd to keep exact range and bearing, a third to ionize the beam path, and then the 4th is the actual weapon shot. The ionized path is actually used to maintain the focus and intensity of the weapon beam.

So what atmosphere are you ionizing in a vacuum to focus the central beam with?

This method is basically just "burning a hole" through which the central beam can pass through without the atmosphere diffusing it. Its not like having some gigantic gravity focussing system to keep the beam tight as it crosses vacuum.
 
Even in deep space, at 1 AU, you're not going to see it against the background except in certain frequencies with very sensitive instruments. Now, it's also going to radiate in visual...

So does everything else out there that emits the slightest amount of reflectance let alone heat, so that just brings us back to the "you gotta know precisely where to look" thing again.
 
Just remember: cosmic background is 3.01E-06 W/m^2... (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/class/P3401Hw3.html)

That's also a longer wavelength than IR. If the IR sensors aren't sensitive to photons with CMB wavelength then they shouldn't make much of a difference.

Even in deep space, at 1 AU, you're not going to see it against the background except in certain frequencies with very sensitive instruments. Now, it's also going to radiate in visual...

Yes, I would imagine that there would be a lot of 'noise' to remove from the signal too. None of this is making it easier to detect a distant object though ;).

And with respect to the OP, I think the sensor issue is somewhat related to the laser focussing issue. While it may seem tangential, we're looking at similar practicalities (targeting, focussing, ability to track targets, etc).
 
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Ya'know - even without all the math just common sense will bring you to the same conclusion.

Yes, but it's nice to have numbers to back you up too :)

EDIT: I think what this all boils down to is that combat ideally should take place at somewhat shorter ranges than generally assumed in Traveller.
 
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EDIT: I think what this all boils down to is that combat ideally should take place at somewhat shorter ranges than generally assumed in Traveller.

Yeah that's why I'm leaning towards the stealth drones that provide target locks and terminal guidance to long range missiles launched from outside the target's sensor envelope.
As far as beam combat goes, iF you are big and slow you'd better be tough, cause once the range drops all of the beams will be hitting you. A tigress with 60 cm of bonded superdense would fit my description of big and tough.
 
mcsnippety...


so even TL 16 can't hit a fighter at 80 hexes, and concidering that's a 16 second command loop at 80 hexes, the evading fighter is entirely outside of the CEP, now that Tigress at 80 hexes has a problem, it's hull is measured in km.

A Tigress is 500,000 dton, correct? And this is the volume, so to find the radius of said 500,000 dton ship we take ((500,000*14*3)/(4*PI))= ~120 METERS, not kilometers, in radius. This gives a target of ~46000 square meters in area, or .046 square KM. No where near your KM measurement in either the length or in the area.

You can't target the entire volume of the sphere, just the part facing you, and since you can only target from one direction you can only target the area of the circle that is created by the radius of the Tigress
 
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