What if T5 development was stopped?

[EvilDrGanymede]

A PURELY HYPOTHETICAL question, based on a discussion going on at rpg.net.

What if MM suddenly decided - for reasons of his own - to completely stop developing T5? How would people here who want to see a T5 react to this news? Anger? Apathy? Betrayal? Bitterness? Disappointment? Joy? Relief? Something else?

I'm not asking about how you'd pick up the baton and continue writing it yourself, I'm just asking how such a turn of events would make you feel.

Again, this is a hypothetical question, so don't get your knickers in a twist - as far as I know MM is still developing it and has shown no sign of changing his mind.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Again, this is a hypothetical question, so don't get your knickers in a twist - as far as I know MM is still developing it and has shown no sign of changing his mind.

Yes this is QUITE hypothetical, Marc is still developing it and has not given any indication he plans to quit.

BTW Doc, this isn't meant to blast you or anything, I just want to make it clear The topic itself is fine.

Hunter

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

I figured making it explicitly clear twice (once in ALL CAPS, once in bold) would have been enough. But you chipping in should remove all ambiguity completely

 

[Bill Coffin]

Personally, I'd be fairly bummed. I've recently gotten back into Classic Traveller, and I'd love to see a new take on the game by the guy who invented it in the first place, but with a quarter-century of additional perspective under his belt.

 

[mad13142000]

It would suck.

We need a good sci-fi RPG in the universe, and Traveller is it. There are many of us who don't wish to spend hundreds of dollars to learn a new system (Gurps or D20) to play Traveller...Yeah, I would spend the money on T5, but I own CT through TNE now - it would only be a continuation. Like my D&D collection before it...If I'm playing D&D, I'm spending money for 3rd Ed, but if I'm playing Everquest, it would be a waste of money...
Sorry, Hunter - I'll continue to buy your sourcebooks, like I buy G:T sourcebooks...but the core for me is still always going to be Traveller...If MWM wants to give up on it, then that would be a serious loss to the world....

-MADDog

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

OK, disappointment has been expressed so far...

How about long term... would you feel bitter about it, or even betrayed? Would you be cursing Marc Miller's name til the day you died? (which is what some people seem to be doing with the people behind TNE )

Or would you just shrug and move on?

I'm not looking for a specific answer, I'm just curious to see how people would take it if it ever happened.

 

[TWILIGHT]

probably just shrug and move on. After all, its not like there isnt a precedant. GDW, Imperium Games, WEG, LUG, etc...its becoming quite the norm now to see games companies bite the dust...we'd all probably just sigh and say "oh, well....". For me, I own CT,MT (my favourite),TNE,T4, and GT it would have to be something simple and unique for me to bother buying it. New streamlined (easy and not clunky!) rules (possibly BRP or something similar) and a DEFINATE progression in the traveller/imperium tmeline. It's a chance to take this epic saga forward for the next few hundred years. I'd have all new artwork, new ships, new weapons, new religions, new politics, new governments. Also, Im a huge fan of the initial mock-up of the T5 ringbinder idea!

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Well, we've been waiting for it for, what, five years, so I'm not really expecting to see it before the next ice age anyway.

I'd like a new 'real' edition, but part of me feels there are already too many versions. There are two separate, incompatible versions currently in print, and many people still play the previous four versions. I'm not convinced there's really a market for another.

That said, I'd still buy it, and I'm actually using T4/T4.1/T5 for my current PBEM game.

 

[Cymew]

So, there are more than me that read that thread on rpg.net today...

I for one wouldn't mind a bit if Marc stopped developing T5. Traveller have entered the halls of gaming greats by it's long life in whatever form it takes. It don't need a new version in a long time.

It reminds me of how we sometimes say about Glorantha, that Greg Stafford can't be trusted to tell us about it!. We know just about as much about it as he does.

But, sure it would be sad to see Marc stop. Even though I'm not sure I think he can actually do anything interesting with the game, ruleswise.

Then it's that question about if there's a market at all. I don't think so, but maybe in some years on.

 

[kaladorn]

I have to admit to not being terribly interested in T5 (I own and don't play TNE, T4, GT and T20... I still use MT CT). OTOH, if *all* traveller development were to stop, I'd feel kinda sad. Hell, very sad.

I can maybe undertand someone who has had their life wrapped up in something for a long time wanting to take a hiatus or be shut of it entirely, even if it was good.

But I'd hope at the same time that such a person would arrange for others to carry on (and not feel compelled to say 'I own all the rights but I can't be dealt with...' <unlike someone who gets flamed a lot by our community...>). I hope the game is larger than one man, no matter how big of an influence he has had on it. AD&D survived when Gygax and his crew left TSR to go form their offshoot. Hopefully Traveller could even outlive (figuratively) Marc. Marc had probably contributed more than anyone to its development, but if he wants to go to do something else with his life/time, then I wish him all the luck. Just try to leave it in the hands of some other competent folks.

Would I feel betrayed? Nope. People have a right to have a life - writing a successful game doesn't obligate you never to stop writing stuff for it. We don't pay designers for ownership of their souls. Would I flame him and take his name in vain? Well, that might have a little to do with what he allowed in terms of future development after he left. He-who-shall-no-be-named apparently has arisen much ire 'gainst himself by the problems he has created in allowing others to procede when he himself appears not to be doing so. Thus he is flamed. So I think there might be a lesson to Marc (and others in similar positions) about how to leave gracefully, if one wants to.

25+ is a long time to spend even on something you love. If he wants a break or even an outright end to his part, fine and good. Just go out with class and let the project live on and have a life of its own without you. That's leaving with class.

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
A PURELY HYPOTHETICAL question, based on a discussion going on at rpg.net.

What if MM suddenly decided - for reasons of his own - to completely stop developing T5? How would people here who want to see a T5 react to this news? Anger? Apathy? Betrayal? Bitterness? Disappointment? Joy? Relief? Something else?

I'm not asking about how you'd pick up the baton and continue writing it yourself, I'm just asking how such a turn of events would make you feel.

Again, this is a hypothetical question, so don't get your knickers in a twist - as far as I know MM is still developing it and has shown no sign of changing his mind.

Hmm, no offense but this strikes me as a slightly odd hypothetical to pose, so might I ask why are you asking?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
... Would I flame him and take his name in vain? Well, that might have a little to do with what he allowed in terms of future development after he left. ...

Ya know, I am willing to bet that Marc will get MORE flames by releasing T5 than he ever would by announcing T5 development stopped. (Assuming Traveller licensing doesn't stop.)

There are just so many divergent, yet fervent, wishes for what T5 looks like and contains and covers, that he has no chance to satisfy even a small portion of them.

 

[robject]

If Mr. Miller ceased developing T5, I would be disappointed, and be generally bummed about it for as long as I'll care about gaming. Sort of a melancholy regret kind of thing.

There's a bit of historical fiction that C.S. Lewis began in the early 1960's, soon before he died, that has been published with a few of his short SF stories. He had the first two chapters and the last chapter done, and it looks like it would be such a cool work. It's a retelling of Odysseus, and starts out with the Achaeans in the Trojan Horse, a really spectacular bit of writing. But... it'll never be finished, to my lasting regret.

That's the feeling I'll have if T5 isn't finished. It's already been started, and I daresay the whole thing is more or less already there, in Mr. Miller's head. I would like him to complete it.

In a way, the first increment of T5 has already been released. The playtest material is rich and fresh, and tops the material under the main Traveller line to date, including MT.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by daryen:

Ya know, I am willing to bet that Marc will get MORE flames by releasing T5 than he ever would by announcing T5 development stopped.

[...]

There are just so many divergent, yet fervent, wishes for what T5 looks like and contains and covers, that he has no chance to satisfy even a small portion of them.

Daryen makes good points. Marc probably won't get flames for stopping T5. And he's more likely to get complaints about feature XYZ if T5 is completed.

(I do think that if T5 has a good release then most of the 'petty' preferences, such as Book(let) Format, will go away.)


First, I think T5 has a chance precisely because it's Marc's vision, not ours. I think it's going to have a consistency and 'CT-true' genuineness, because it's being written carefully by the same guy.

Second, most of the preferences I've heard expressed are modular enough to be patched in as house rules, so I'm not worried about being dissatisfied. For example, he maps the task rolls and target numbers to probabilities for us, so we can trivially use percentile dice or map values to the DGP task system.

Third, to directly address the issue of satisfaction, the playtest rules are out there for all of us to test. He wants feedback now. So if you don't like T5, skim the playtest material and give him something tangible to think about. Tell him to put task rolls in the chargen system, for example.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Gallowglass:
Hmm, no offense but this strikes me as a slightly odd hypothetical to pose, so might I ask why are you asking?
[/QB]

I'm curious to see if people would react in the same way to this 'death of Traveller' as they did when TNE came out - i.e. froth about it lots, go into a strop, take it as a personal affront, curse Marc Miller to the end of time and/or want to set him on fire, and generally act like it was the end of their world.

So far people seem to be surprisingly restrained, but perhaps that's because the question is hypothetical.

Oh, I agree with Daryen - I'm sure if T5 ever came out we'd still have people who wouldn't be satisfied and will be waiting to see a T6.

 

[Falkayn]

Well, I wouldn't care <shrug>, I like T20 so I'm unlikely to want to see another version of Traveller come along and steal it's thunder.

Perhaps in 5-10 years if the whole d20 idea seems passe and wrong, then I would like T5 to come out, but I'd want it to have the appeal that T20 does (i.e. of allowing non-Traveller gamers to get easy access to Traveller).

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
but I'd want it to have the appeal that T20 does (i.e. of allowing non-Traveller gamers to get easy access to Traveller).

Uh, I thought the appeal of T20 was to give access to Traveller to D&D players too narrow minded to learn a new system?

I can only hope that D20 will be dead in 5-10 years, but AD&D lasted ten years longer than in my most sordid nightmare. And I admit D20 is better than AD&D. *sigh*

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
I'm curious to see if people would react in the same way to this 'death of Traveller' as they did when TNE came out - i.e. froth about it lots, go into a strop, take it as a personal affront, curse Marc Miller to the end of time and/or want to set him on fire, and generally act like it was the end of their world.

Ah, so it was pointless muck raking...

The hypothetical is incorrectly posed however: it should be "How would you re-act if MM ended T5 development and instead launched an SF RPG that used the Traveller name but a rules system only distantly related to the CT mechanics and re-wrote the setting in a way that some of you felt massively devalued what had gone before, written in a dictatorial style that many of you found insufferably smug and patronising." And the analogy is further flawed by the fact that MM had left GDW by the time of T:TNE... so perhaps it should be Hunter or MJD; mind, for either to be believable, both would require personaility transplants as far as I can tell, but we are being hypothetical .

So far people seem to be surprisingly restrained, but perhaps that's because the question is hypothetical.

And also because one can hardly get annoyed if MM decides not to something which he has no moral or contractual obligation to do! Disappointment is understandable, but anything else would be unreasonable. The reactions to T:TNE were stronger, but then T:TNE changed (and it seemed to some people wilfully damaged) a setting and rules system that many fans had cherished (and both emotionally and financially invested in) for many years. At the very least it was spectacularly inept PR; compare how well WotC manged the introduction of both 3e and even 3.5 (and yes, I know they have caught some flak).

Oh, I agree with Daryen - I'm sure if T5 ever came out we'd still have people who wouldn't be satisfied and will be waiting to see a T6.

Oh, probably (it's our god given right dammit!

), although it must be said it is possible for a rule system to stabilise to a point where it doesn't require major revision anymore (they are only necessary when the bean counters are involved...). Chaosium's Basic Role Playing hasn't substantially changed in twenty odd years (1d10 for experience instead of 1d6, unified Offensive and Defensive weapon skills to simplify combat), GURPS 3 looks very like GURPS 1 (although I haven't played it much) and although a different game to TFT the family resemblance is at least as closs as CT to T4. It's really only Traveller, and D&D, of the major RPG's that have had this torrid history of rule sets (ignoring for the moment C&S et al). In fact I do wonder whether if Imperium Games had handled things better (and had better financial footing) T4 might not have evolved in much the direction that many of the pro-T5 fans appear to want. Ah well...

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Gallowglass:
Ah, so it was pointless muck raking...

Nope. I was actually just curious.

The hypothetical is incorrectly posed however: it should be "How would you re-act if MM ended T5 development and instead launched an SF RPG that used the Traveller name but a rules system only distantly related to the CT mechanics and re-wrote the setting in a way that some of you felt massively devalued what had gone before, written in a dictatorial style that many of you found insufferably smug and patronising." And the analogy is further flawed by the fact that MM had left GDW by the time of T:TNE... so perhaps it should be Hunter or MJD; mind, for either to be believable, both would require personaility transplants as far as I can tell, but we are being hypothetical .

Nope. You're mistaking a comparison for an analogy. I was wondering if people would... well, react exactly as you've perfectly illustrated for TNE if T5 was cancelled. I know the situations are different and I wasn't saying that one was equivalent to the other - just wondering whether the reactions would be similar.
(and why is it that people can't just say 'I don't like TNE?' even after about 10 years? Do we have to get the standard rant about it all the time?!)

And also because one can hardly get annoyed if MM decides not to something which he has no moral or contractual obligation to do! Disappointment is understandable, but anything else would be unreasonable. The reactions to T:TNE were stronger, but then T:TNE changed (and it seemed to some people wilfully damaged) a setting and rules system that many fans had cherished (and both emotionally and financially invested in) for many years.

I do think it's a bit odd that you should claim that one wouldn't get disappointed if MM stopped T5 because he has no moral or contractual obligation to write it, yet at the same time you evidently are still angry about TNE when GDW weren't under any moral or contractual obligation to develop it in any specific way. (yes, they could have done it differently, but they didn't).

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gallowglass:
Ah, so it was pointless muck raking...

Nope. I was actually just curious. </font>[/QUOTE]So, satisfying your idle curiosity by simply reminding lots of people about how annoyed something got them has intrinsic value? To me it sounds largely devoid of value and certainly involves stirring up past resentments, but YMMV...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
The hypothetical is incorrectly posed however: it should be "How would you re-act if MM ended T5 development and instead launched an SF RPG that used the Traveller name but a rules system only distantly related to the CT mechanics and re-wrote the setting in a way that some of you felt massively devalued what had gone before, written in a dictatorial style that many of you found insufferably smug and patronising." And the analogy is further flawed by the fact that MM had left GDW by the time of T:TNE... so perhaps it should be Hunter or MJD; mind, for either to be believable, both would require personaility transplants as far as I can tell, but we are being hypothetical .

Nope. You're mistaking a comparison for an analogy. I was wondering if people would... well, react exactly as you've perfectly illustrated for TNE if T5 was cancelled. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, if you re-read what I posted, I was pointing out that comparison was flawed - GDW didn't just drop MT, they produced a new game that many people reacted to badly.

And please don't put words in my mouth: I never said anything about how I felt about T:TNE (For the record: great concept, hated the execution and rule system, made my excuses early and left...)

I know the situations are different and I wasn't saying that one was equivalent to the other - just wondering whether the reactions would be similar.
(and why is it that people can't just say 'I don't like TNE?' even after about 10 years? Do we have to get the standard rant about it all the time?!)

Well, again I am puzzled. You are the one who started drawing parralels with the T:TNE, but how reactions to two such differing situations could be usefully compared I'm not sure. As for the standard rant, well I'm glad it was recognisable (that was partly the point): but the main point was to draw attention to what I saw as fairly important differences between your original hypothetical (MM stopping T5) and what you appeared to want to compare peoples reaction against(their reactions to the dropping of MT and the Rebellion and it's replacement with T:TNE)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And also because one can hardly get annoyed if MM decides not to something which he has no moral or contractual obligation to do! Disappointment is understandable, but anything else would be unreasonable. The reactions to T:TNE were stronger, but then T:TNE changed (and it seemed to some people wilfully damaged) a setting and rules system that many fans had cherished (and both emotionally and financially invested in) for many years.

I do think it's a bit odd that you should claim that one wouldn't get disappointed if MM stopped T5 because he has no moral or contractual obligation to write it, yet at the same time you evidently are still angry about TNE when GDW weren't under any moral or contractual obligation to develop it in any specific way. (yes, they could have done it differently, but they didn't). </font>[/QUOTE]*sigh* read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I see the two situations as different, and where on earth you get the idea I am angry about TNE from I have no idea (sarcastic about it, especially as published, guilty as charged, but angry?). My rhetoric against the editorial tone and the GDW house rules inheirant in TNE may have got a bit robust at times, but as I stated above, I wasn't automatically hostile.

The fact is that in the TNE situation GDW took an existing setting and rules system and made large scale changes in both that we know, as a matter of record, many fans did not like. In the T5 situation MM has said that he is working on T5 as a definitive Traveller rules set: he has not garunteed a delivery date, nor does development of any part of the OTU depend on it. I repeat, I fail to see any useful commonalities in the two situations.

The curious things is that I don't remember (but was much lesss connected to Traveller fandom at the time) the same furore over MT as compared to CT. The rules changes were less (more an editing job than anything else) but the Rebellion itself was quite a swipe at the established setting.

Sadly that is the danger of a large, loyal and creative fan base: it becomes increasingly tricky to keep all portions on board and requires ever more adroit PR to avoid offending (or rather, being percieved to have offended) some portion of the fans and in this day and age, that perception can spread like wild fire via the net. But then "fan" is a conraction of "fanatic"...

Cheers,

Nick Middleton