What are the Navy fleet support ships?

[Tobias]

IMHO, destroyers and escorts are, courriers aren't, scouts and minesweepers probably not (in fact, the scouts I envision are very lightly armed, if at all, to avoid some maverick capitain to engage combat, even with the lightest forces). About ortillery, as stated above, I see it as a mission of the main fleet squadrons (and its fighter complement), not as specialized ships.

Well, we do have one canon example of a specialized ship for ortillery: The strike cruiser in Sup9.

By the way, since you also mention them: What do you see minesweepers being or doing? It has never even occurred to me that there would be such vessels because I thought that even if there are space mines of some kind, regular escort ships would fight them.

The types of auxiliary ships I'd have are:
- Replenishment vessels (wet, dry and dromedary)
- Transports (troops and materiel)
- Repair ships
- Hospital ships

Other support ships:
- Couriers (often handled by multipurpose escorts)
- Scouts/Pickets (ditto)
- Bombardment vessels
- Armed merchantmen

Regarding hospital ships, you'd also want to have them because of wartime humanitarian concerns. Few of the Imperiums prospective enemies are so bitter or so callous that they'd ignore a suggestion to mutually agree not to target hospital ships. They'd be separate from other auxiliaries, and they'd be unarmed for the same reason.

 

[HiverLord]

Can you ship low berths in cargo as just so much freight? Or do they need specialized power taps and monitoring?

iirc, don't low berths have their own internal power supplies, as in very long duration batteries? I seem to remember at least one case of a 'derelict ship' being found decades (if not at least a century) later, with at least one person surviving in a low berth for the duration. Though for the life of me I can't remember the source(s). (Must have failed another aging throw... )

 

[Selandia]

True, though it might be best to describe these vessels as Q-Ships: their disguise is their main asset. They would not be operating as an obvious combat vessel, as a Patrol Cruiser or Close Escort would.




That would be the viewpoint of the Royal Navy - we have the Royal Fleet Auxilliary to man the vessels which support the Royal Navy's combat vessels.

Each wet navy has its rules ansd history, although there is some common denominators. Combat, support and auxilliary tend to be functionnal designations subject to historical evolution, legal and semantical issues.

The RN use auxilliary first to refer to ships that are flying the Blue ensign. They are not commissionned under the White ensign (where you will find both support and combat ships) and are civilian manned (save for an occasionnal naval specialist) yet belong to the Crown. They do escape the jurisdiction of the Ministery of transportation that applies to merchant ships flying the Red ensign. The RN also use the term to refer to merchant ships converted to fight under the White ensign. Such a ship is called an "auxilliary warship".

Q-ships (and auxilliary commerce Raiders for that matter) have to be on the " naval list " of a country to avoid the charge of piracy and are combat ships even if they are considered "auxilliary" because they were not designed as warship but converted from merchant. Granted, some wwi ships were built as Q-ship from the start using civilian lay-out and might escape the definition of converted merchant ship and should not be "auxilliary".

Conversion of merchant ships for war seems to be common denominator of nearly every navy when they refer to an "auxilliary warship". Otherwise, auxiliary seems to refer to non combat support.

BTW the nomenclature aboves seems to have skipped the Depot ship (a combo storage, repair and maintenance, accomodation, flotilla HQ ship) and the Accomodation ship.

Has to hospital ships, they are either the Evac hospital or the "base" where the freezer med evac casualities, or the Evac ship for patients that would not survive the freezing-defreezing.

Selandia

 

[Garyius2003]

Do the Navy ships provide orbital strikes for smaller Marine formations, and the Army takes care of more serious needs?

The 21128th Orbital Artillery Brigade consists of one craft battalion flying hardened modified troop transports to spot firing units and sensors, a maintenance bat to service the units, a supply and munitions bat, a fighter company, a HQ and targeting unit, and a ground liaison unit. It is designed to hook its orbital work units into existing high ports or Army expeditionary high ports.

 

[rancke]

'Combat vessel' appear to be a technical term in the Classic Era. I quote again:

"Each sector of the Imperium theoretically has a group of fleets numbering about 1000 ships. This number includes combat vessels such as cruisers, carriers, battleships, and some escorts. It does not include auxiliaries, support ships, and scouts." [RbS:27]​

Obviously, if 'some escorts' are combat vessels, others are not[*]. Thus it is evident that there are fighting ships that are not combat vessels in the technical sense.

[*] My own take is that there are a few experimental designs of fighting ships that are as big as cruisers (light cruisers, anyway) yet do not carry a spinal, and that these are classed as escorts, but still counted among 'combat vessels'. Most escorts are considerably smaller, such as the 5,000T Sloans. YMMV.​

Hans

 

[far-trader]

iirc, don't low berths have their own internal power supplies, as in very long duration batteries? I seem to remember at least one case of a 'derelict ship' being found decades (if not at least a century) later, with at least one person surviving in a low berth for the duration. Though for the life of me I can't remember the source(s). (Must have failed another aging throw... )

Know what you mean

I think that'd be TNE, they were called... Relics? I played one in a game long ago.

My take was that lowberth passengers stayed viable with a dead ship power plant by being hooked into the ship's emergency power. Normally good for about a week of emergency systems. TNE's Relics survived longer by having the ship power plant operating at idle to preserve fuel. Just enough juice flowing to maintain the emergency power capacitors... at least until the fuel finally ran out.

Without external power istr lowberths only having hours of power (in MT?), primarily for transfers between ships. To tie into an expanded idea of shipping lowberths where a low passenger only went in once and was revived upon final arrival, even if the voyage was several jumps aboard different ships. For example traveling across 12 parsecs by J4 would cost the low-passenger 3 tickets but they would not be revived at each stop and may very well arrive on a different ship than the one they started on.

I also envisage warehouses with power taps and racks to store lowberths in transit when a ship isn't immediately available.

 

[tanksoldier]

That would be the viewpoint of the Royal Navy - we have the Royal Fleet Auxilliary to man the vessels which support the Royal Navy's combat vessels.

The USN has similar vessels. They aren't commissioned so they use USNS instead of USS.

In USN usage auxiliaries are vessels who's role is not primarily combat.

Historically there's two uses of "auxiliary": Support vessels, or vessels converted for a combat role which were not originally designed as combatants. In the second case the term is usually applied to whatever combat role they're been modified to perform, ie: auxiliary cruiser, auxiliary corvette, etc.

 

[aramis]

The use of Auxiliary has 3 major uses in Naval parlance

1) Merchant ships converted to combatant roles.
2) government owned civilian crewed vessels (Esp. US and UK.)
3) vessels designed to support combatant vessels, especially tankers, colliers, supply/replenishment, "mobile yards", non-combat-capable tenders, and research craft.

a fourth use is rarer...
4) civilian vessels pressed into fleet use.

 

[rancke]

The use of Auxiliary has 3 major uses in Naval parlance

1) Merchant ships converted to combatant roles.
2) government owned civilian crewed vessels (Esp. US and UK.)
3) vessels designed to support combatant vessels, especially tankers, colliers, supply/replenishment, "mobile yards", non-combat-capable tenders, and research craft.

a fourth use is rarer...
4) civilian vessels pressed into fleet use.

Looks to me like the Imperium has a new, fifth use. Since 'support ships' are a separate category, it's not (3), and if some (most?) escorts (Gazelles, Chrysanthemums, Sloans(?)) are auxiliaries, it's not (1), (2) or (4).


Hans

 

[warwizard]

I envision rescue and recovery ships to appear at starports and at naval and scout bases deployed in two ship detachments. A major fleet deployment may have a squadron of these vessels deployed with the fleet train.

The ships are not set up for long duration flights with survivors, figure life support sufficient for 8 hours if all of the seats and cargo are filled with survivors.

In general these are craft, not starships, a squadron deployed with a fleet would operate from a tender or hospital ship equipped with rapid launch facilities.

The rescue mission entails matching vector, stopping the dead man tumble, docking with any intact airlocks or conducting vacuum rescue operations. Limited space is provided for survivors, as it is expected that more generalized small craft would be available to take off survivors for transport while the rescue operations continue.
To perform these tasks the rescue craft has a very hi g rating and (for rule sets that require reaction drives) fuel reserves, specialized missile rack with rescue drones loaded, also specialized missile to clamp onto a hull and de spin it. Facilities would include oversized airlocks to facilate handling casualities, casuality treatment facility (autodoc and emergency low berths), medics and rescue technicians, and spaces to feed and care for survivors for short durations (galley, cramped seats, cargo bay).

The recovery mission poceeds after the rescue mission has concluded, and entails placing the derelict into a stable orbit, placing navigation hazard beacons securing any special munitions, safeing the power plants, providing auxillary power/ lights. The job of long distance movement of the derelicts falls to the specialized fleet tugs.

 

[aramis]

Looks to me like the Imperium has a new, fifth use. Since 'support ships' are a separate category, it's not (3), and if some (most?) escorts (Gazelles, Chrysanthemums, Sloans(?)) are auxiliaries, it's not (1), (2) or (4).


Hans

Support can be direct combat support... such as littoral combat craft (=PT and PHM boats)

 

[rancke]

Support can be direct combat support... such as littoral combat craft (=PT and PHM boats)

I didn't get the impression that this was the kind of support the definition you provided referred to: "...especially tankers, colliers, supply/replenishment, "mobile yards", non-combat-capable tenders, and research craft".

But the point I was trying to make is that the Imperium seems to distinguish between 'auxiliaries' and 'support ships'. If 'support ships' include ships providing direct combat support, what's left to put into the category 'auxiliaries'?


Hans

 

[aramis]

I didn't get the impression that this was the kind of support the definition you provided referred to: "...especially tankers, colliers, supply/replenishment, "mobile yards", non-combat-capable tenders, and research craft".

But the point I was trying to make is that the Imperium seems to distinguish between 'auxiliaries' and 'support ships'. If 'support ships' include ships providing direct combat support, what's left to put into the category 'auxiliaries'?


Hans

Think "Primary Combattant"="Ship of the line"≅Spinal Mount + armor

in some uses of auxiliary, anything not a Primary Combattant is an auxiliary. Littoral Combat ships and Littoral Zone Patrol Craft are auxiliaries without the A_ coding in modern US/UK use, but are military flagged and crewed

The A_ coding also implies strongly "no armor". An AD, like an AC, probably should be unarmored and lacking spinal mounts. A DE lacks spinal mounts, and by some reckoning is a support vessel - in the battle line, it dies quick. It's part of the screen, not the line.

 

[rancke]

Think "Primary Combattant"="Ship of the line"≅Spinal Mount + armor.

I'm thinking "Combat Vessel"="cruisers, carriers, battleships, and some escorts", because that's what the text I've already cited twice tells me. That text then goes on to exclude auxiliaries, support ships, and scouts, so I also think that (in the Third Imperium) "auxiliary" and "supply ship" fall into two different categories.

The A_ coding also implies strongly "no armor". An AD, like an AC, probably should be unarmored and lacking spinal mounts. A DE lacks spinal mounts, and by some reckoning is a support vessel - in the battle line, it dies quick. It's part of the screen, not the line.

Carriers are considered combat vessels. Two out of the three carriers we see in FS lack spinals. 'Combat vessels' include some escorts (emphasis mine). So some combat vessels do not have spinals (and presumably aren't expected to stand in the battle line).

But that's still a tangent. I'm not puzzled by what is and what isn't a combat vessel. I'm puzzled by what is the difference between an auxiliary and a support ship.

Combat vessels = Badass/big fighting ships.
Support ships = tankers, colliers, supply/replenishment, "mobile yards", non-combat-capable tenders, research craft, and the like.
Auxiliaries = Not so badass/small fighting ships (i.e. most escorts), perhaps?​

Hans

 

[aramis]

You're not separating the multiple meanings out, Hans, that's the confusion.

Only certain types of auxiliaries are A_ coded. Looking at http://www.nvr.navy.mil/class.htm

• Underway Replenishment
  Ammunition Ship AE
  Combat Store Ship AFS
  Oiler AO
  Fast Combat Support Ship AOE
  Dry Cargo and Ammunition Ship AKE
• Material Support
  Submarine Tender AS
• Surveillance
  Surveillance AGOS
• Salvage Ships
  Salvage Ship ARS
• Fleet Ocean Tugs
  Fleet Ocean Tug ATF
• Seabasing Support*
  Mobile Launch Platform MLP
  Dry Cargo/Amunition T-AKE
  Offshore Petroleum Distribution System T-AG

The A-code is the "Auxiliaries" in mode non-combat support. Almost all of which could function as civil cargo ships.
combat support auxiliaries would be combattants that can't stand up in the line of battle, but can (in theory) at least damage line ship

Given the strong basis in USN labels on the Bk5 code list... I think you're making a distinction from an inclusion.

 

[mike wightman]

Isn't an auxiliary a civilian ship that is militarised in the event of war?

 

[Dragoner]

Isn't an auxiliary a civilian ship that is militarised in the event of war?

That is what I thought and I generally don't think of support ships in combat.

 

[rancke]

You're not separating the multiple meanings out, Hans, that's the confusion.

You're not accepting that in the Third Imperium, one meaning (quite possibly one out of many) is "not a combat vessel and not a supply ship but <something that is neither a combat vessel nor a supply ship>".

You can keep repeating contemporary definitions of 'auxiliary' till you're blue in the face, but it won't explain the way the term is used on p. 27 of Rebellion Sourcebook any better than the first time you tyrotted them out.


Hans

 

[Tobias]

Well, in FSSI, you have:
Auxiliaries are supposed to be the noncombatants of the fleet. They linger on the fringes of the battle area and resupply the fighting ships with fuel, missiles, and provisions.
All the example ships are gigantic tankers, resupply ships or dromedaries.

 

[rancke]

Well, in FSSI, you have:
Auxiliaries are supposed to be the noncombatants of the fleet. They linger on the fringes of the battle area and resupply the fighting ships with fuel, missiles, and provisions.
All the example ships are gigantic tankers, resupply ships or dromedaries.

Yes, that would be one of the difinitions we're already familiar with and mean that there is no differenc ebetween auxiliaries and supply ships..

One could also decide that the puzzling example in RbS is an error and ignore it forthwith, of course. That would be an easy way out. But if one does not want to dismiss this bit of canon as wrong, some other explanation is required.


Hans