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Wet Navy Ship Design

Timerover51

SOC-14 5K
I have been reading the articles that appeared in Challenge Magazine 53, 54, 60, and 61 on Wet Navy ship design and naval combat. I was wondering if anyone tried to design Tech Level Zero through Tech Level 8 ships in accordance with those rules and then compared the designs to ships that were built on Earth during those periods. Alternatively, has anyone ever tried to determine what an HMS Dreadnought from 1906, a US Fletcher-class Destroyer from World War 2, frigate USS Constitution of 1797, or a Venetian Galley of 1571 would be like if designed using the given design parameters?
 
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Looks like either no one has attempted to do so, or is they did use the rules, it was for ships greater than Tech Level 8. Basically, the idea was to get feedback from others as to the validity of the design process from actual ships for which a comparison can be made.
 
I am sadly Challenge-less and unable to help. Sorry:(

Maybe I need to expand the possible design universe and include ground vehicles and aircraft designed under the rules contained in MegaTraveller Referee Manual. Again, I am looking for designs for Tech Level 8 and lower, to check against existing Real World Designs.

I already pointed out one problem with the design rubric to you as it pertains to radar equipment. I am wondering if I posted a few more of those in the main discussion thread if I would get more response. More likely I might just get nuked, but I have dealt with a lot more than online nuking in my life.
 
You are looking for more graininess in the design system than is possible to include.

Traveller doesn't differentiate cost etc for equipment depending on your progress through a TL.

A TL6 radar set could be a set on a WW2 destroyer or a 1970s warship.

If I want to use a TL7 or less weapon system in Traveller that has a real world historical example I don't bother trying to design it - I just use the game system to describe it.

Neither the Striker or MT designers remembered a really important rule in LBB4 - in the ironmongery section it mentions the discounts you get for buying stuff in bulk - up to 60% if you are buying really big lots.

Still not exactly the real world example you gave but a bit closer to reality.
 
I keep going through the Wet Navy articles, amoung other things looking at their power supplies. They show steam power units, using solid hydrocarbon fuel, and give a few minutes to start up a cold steam unit, but I do not find any mention of boilers to supply the steam. Am I totally missing something, or did they not include steam boilers to supply steam to steam power units? I must admit, I would love to see someone start a steam reciprocating plant by feeding it large chunks of wood.

Am I also correct that I find no size limit to wooden-hulled vessels? Or hide-covered ones for that matter? Nor does there seem to be a size limit on man-powered vessels. Also, there does not seem to be any mention of gas turbines as power units. Again, am I missing something, or is this simply not there?
 
I keep going through the Wet Navy articles, amoung other things looking at their power supplies. They show steam power units, using solid hydrocarbon fuel, and give a few minutes to start up a cold steam unit, but I do not find any mention of boilers to supply the steam. Am I totally missing something, or did they not include steam boilers to supply steam to steam power units?


Did you ever stop to think that boilers are part of the "steam power unit" package? That the term "steam power unit" refers to boilers and the engines they supply?

Look at the game's fusion plants for example. Is there any mention just what equipment produces all the megawatts listed? Using your "logic", fusion plants somehow magically transform fuel into electricity because nothing is explicitly listed as producing that electricity.

Am I also correct that I find no size limit to wooden-hulled vessels? Or hide-covered ones for that matter? Nor does there seem to be a size limit on man-powered vessels.

That's beyond the scope of the rules. They didn't expect someone would want to build a man-powered coracle the size of a CVN so they didn't place caps in the text.

Also, there does not seem to be any mention of gas turbines as power units.

Seeing as the Challenge wet navy articles were meant to be an addition to MT's regular vehicle construction rules, did you ever stop to think that you might find gas turbines in those rules? Along with all the other weapons and electronics the articles also don't list?

Again, am I missing something...

Oh, you're definitely missing something and it isn't in the rules. :rofl:
 
That's beyond the scope of the rules. They didn't expect someone would want to build a man-powered coracle the size of a CVN so they didn't place caps in the text.

Someone, somewhere, will try it - and it might actually be fun: "The Heroic And Yet Tragic Expedition of the Great God-King of the Tiklikan, Wherein We Learned to Our Dismay that Even God-Kings Have Their Limits." Chapter 1: "The Great God-King Has a Vision," ...

Oh, you're definitely missing something and it isn't in the rules. :rofl:

I would say you're missing something too ... somewhere in the "common courtesy" department, I think.
 
I keep going through the Wet Navy articles, amoung other things looking at their power supplies. They show steam power units, using solid hydrocarbon fuel, and give a few minutes to start up a cold steam unit, but I do not find any mention of boilers to supply the steam. Am I totally missing something, or did they not include steam boilers to supply steam to steam power units? I must admit, I would love to see someone start a steam reciprocating plant by feeding it large chunks of wood.

Am I also correct that I find no size limit to wooden-hulled vessels? Or hide-covered ones for that matter? Nor does there seem to be a size limit on man-powered vessels. Also, there does not seem to be any mention of gas turbines as power units. Again, am I missing something, or is this simply not there?

The boiler is part of the steam power unit.
In the same way, the cylinders are not accounted for in Reciprocating Internal Combustion, and the turbine chamber isn't for the turbine diesel.
 
Steam Power Plants

With respect to boilers, as near as I can determine from the various steam reciprocating plants the following appears to be the formula:

Primitive Steam Reciprocating Plant:
1 cubic meter of volume will generate 0.12 Megawatts of Power (120 kilowatts or 150 horsepower) for a weight of 4 metric tons and a fuel consumption of 120 liters per hour, but since either wood or coal will be used, wood consumption would be 600 liters per hour, and coal would be 240 liters of coal per hour.

The HMS Warrior, built 1859, which I have been on as it is still in existence, has engines in excess of 5,000 horsepower (my source does not give a specific number), engines and boilers together weighed 920 long tons (935 metric tons), and looks like the hull volume occupied by the engine rooms and boiler rooms combined is about 40% of her underwater volume or roughly 3600 displacement tons. Now, using the above formula, the volume necessary to generate in excess of 5,000 horsepower would be say 35 cubic meter (5000 horsepower would require 33.34 cubic meters), and weight 140 metric tons.

Based on this, I would say that boilers are not included in the computation for steam power plants. Now, I do have a LOT of other ships to give as examples.

Further Note: Wrought Iron, which the early steam engine were built from, has a specific gravity of 7.7, so a cubic meter of wrought iron would weight 7.7 metric tons per cubic meter. The above formula uses 4 metric tons per cubic meter for the power plant. It would appear that the power plant in the formula is in excess of 50% wrought iron. That does not allow for a whole lot of space for moving parts.

Fuel Consumption: My engineering handbook gives the heat value of dry wood at between 8300 and 10,000 BTU depending on wood type, coal is rated at 14,000 BTU for an average, and fuel oil runs about 20,000 BTU. Wood and coal are normally measured in pounds rather than volume, as the weight per volume can be highly variable.

Boiler Types: Ship boilers range from a very simple square metal box, to fire tube to large water-tube to small-water tube, each type increasing the efficiency of the fuel use. The Warrior's boilers, and therefore engine, operated at 20 pounds pressure. The standard US Navy boiler in WW2 operated at 850 degree Fahrenheit and 600 pounds pressure. Hand-fired coal boilers needed a lot of room for the stokers to work.
 
I think you also have to allow that Traveller's design systems must include some allowance for empty volume around specific design elements like engines for working room, maintenance access, cooling, etc...

...try not to aim for or expect too high a degree of accurate correlation to reality, it'll drive you crazy too :oo:
 
Based on this, I would say that boilers are not included in the computation for steam power plants.


And you would be wrong.

If the text you quoted only referred to the actual engine, why is there a fuel requirement? Reciprocating engines require steam, not coal, so why is coal explicitly mentioned if there isn't a boiler in the mix?

Now, I do have a LOT of other ships to give as examples.

I'm sure you do, just as I'm sure you've many more names to drop, books to quote, life events to mention, and other such "gems" to share with us.

What you've failed to realize here is what you've continually failed to realize in every other thread of this type you've began. Traveller is a role playing game and can only be judged by that standard. Traveller is not Springsharp or any other historical vehicle modeling system and cannot be judged by those standards.

Traveller's various design systems are not meant to accurately model historical vehicles but are instead meant to provide quick approximations suitable for use in a role playing session. You are asking too much from the design systems, you seem completely unaware of that fact, and that it decidedly odd if you really have been involved in game design for as long as you allege.

You complained that the convoy document wasn't a historical dissertation because you failed to comprehend it was a role playing aid, you posted a mono-block of text concerning chemical weapons because you failed to comprehend Andy Slack's use of quotes, you quibbled over radar sets in MT because you failed to comprehend the breadth of tech levels, you failed to comprehend that Traveller maneuver drives are volume based just as you failed to comprehend that Traveller cargoes are measured by volume, and you've exhibited a failure of comprehension in a great many of your ninety or so posts I've checked.

So, what's going on here? Why don't you understand a game you say you've been involved with since the 1970s? Why can't you comprehend the difference between a design system created for the needs of a RPG and one created to produce accurate historical results? What kind of game are you playing? Are you playing us?
 
Further Comments

The article state that for primitive vessels, Tech Level 0-3, a gun must have a one crew member for every kilogram of each guns weight, or one crewman for every kilogram of projectile weight of the guns carried by the ship. Tech Level 4 for MegaTraveller starts at 1900, so all ships built prior to 1900 would come under this rule.

The British Ironclad "Alexandra", generally viewed as the finest example of a belt-and-battery ship ever built, had a broadside (one side battery only) of 2,573 pounds, or 1167 kilograms. By the above formula, she would require a gun crew of 1167 men. However, that is only one broadside, so it really should be doubled, so she should carry 2334 men to man her guns. Her actual complement, 674 all told.

Actually, it gets even better. Her three wrought iron masts carried 27,000 square feet of sail, and weighted all told with spares, sails, and 24 miles of rope rigging 150 long tons (152.4 metric tons). Top speed under said, 6 Knots, or about 11 kilometers per hour. The sail spread of 27,000 square feet equals 2,508 square meters, and by another formula, a ship must carry one crewman for every 10 square meters of sail. So, the "Alexandra" should also be carrying 251 crew to handle the sails.

Note, the 2,585 crew that we are up to now does NOT include any engine room crew, stokers are conspicuously absent in his engine room crews. bridge crew, marines, or additional personnel.

The "Admiral" class of pre-dreadnoughts/ironclads, mounted four 13.5 inch main battery guns, each firing a 1250 pound projectile. By the given crewing formula, that would mean a gun crew, for main battery only, of 2268 men. That would be 567 men per gun. The "Admiral" class did carry additional guns besides the main battery weapons. The actual crew, 525 to 536.

Speaking of guns, the article states that only at Tech Level 5, corresponding to 1930, did naval rifles larger than 30cm, or about 12 inch, appear. The HMS Inflexible, started in 1874, mounted four 16 inch muzzleloading guns, the Italian battleships, "Italia" and "Lepanto", mounted four 17.72 inch (45cm) guns each in 1878, while the British ships "Victoria", "Sans Pareil", and "Benbow" mounted 16.25 inch guns in the mid 1880s. World War One British ships mounted 12 inch, 13.5 inch, 15 inch, and in 1918 an 18 inch gun was mounted on the light battlecruiser "Furious". The US was building ships with 14 and 16 inch guns in 1916, as was Japan. The first British 16 inch gun ships were the "Nelson" and the "Rodney", completed prior to 1930.

For hull materials, Iron becomes available at Tech Level 4, or 1900, soft steel (presumably mild steel) at Tech Level 5, or 1930, and hard steel (high-tensile strength steel?) at Tech Level 6, or 1950. Not sure where to start on this one. The "SS Great Britain", still in existence as a museum ship, was completed in 1843 as an iron-hulled merchant ship. The question of using iron or mild steel is extensively discussed in Admiral King's "Warships and Navies of the World" published in 1880. Hard steel armor was being tested in the late 1870s, both as steel plate, and in the form of compound armor, with a hard steel face welded to a wrought iron back. High-tensile strength steel was used extensively by the British in shipbuilding prior to and during WW1, along with the US and most other countries. Apparently, the author simply took the armor types from MegaTraveller (I have no idea where the authors of that work got their ideas) and tossed it in as hull material, without looking at what actually was being used.

Lastly, at least for this post, according to the article, powered undersea craft, i.e. submersibles, are available as of Tech Level 5, or 1930. Hmmm, I wonder if the British Admiralty in 1917 would have agreed with that statement. I suspect that they would have prayed, most devoutly, that that was really the case.

For those who wish to check, most of my data on the Victorian-era ships comes from Oscar Parkes' "British Battleships". I do have a copy of Admiral King's work in reprint, along with Howard Chapelle's "History of the American Sailing Navy", which is very useful for wooden warship construction and masting, Archibald's "The Wooden Fighting Ship in the Royal Navy", again very useful for wooden warships, Jack Coggin's "Ships and Seamen of the American Revolution", probably the best one volume work on wooden sailing ship warfare that I have ever found, along with a fair number of other works. I need to get out my volumes by Admiral Rodgers covering oar-powered ship warfare to look more thoroughly at the muscle-powered ships.
 
And you would be wrong.

If the text you quoted only referred to the actual engine, why is there a fuel requirement? Reciprocating engines require steam, not coal, so why is coal explicitly mentioned if there isn't a boiler in the mix?

The weights and volumes used for the Warrior included engines and boilers, but did not include coal bunkers. The two boiler rooms occupy about twice the volume of the engine room. Edit Note: According to Ballard's "The Black Battle Fleet", the Indicated Horse Power of the Warrior is 5,267. Allowing the 920 tons for machinery, this would give her an output of 5.725 IHP per ton of machinery. I should add that her machinery weight would also include her shafting and propeller. As stated, the boiler pressure was 20 pounds, generated by box boilers, and her engines were single expansion, using the steam only once for cylinder power before it was exhausted.

As for being a game, Classic Traveller, i.e. the Little Black Books, does not pretend to give you detailed design systems for anything but space and star ships. When a game starts giving design data for existing or historical equipment, I expect some sort of correlation with reality. The MegaTraveller articles for naval vessels do not come close to meeting that standard. Therefore, if they cannot be used to even remotely accurately design historic vessels, why should they be given any validity for designing anything in the future.

That is one of the reasons why I am not a fan of MegaTraveller, and have major problems with the design sequence in Space;1889. There, I break out my reference materials, and figure out what really would work.
 
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Ok I'll bite.

Just how big should a fully functioning fusion reactor be at TL8? ;)

And by the way I would take those MT TLs with a pinch of salt, the approximate historical dates are a bit too late IMNSHO. Also note that different technologies achieve TL breakthroughs at different times
 
As for being a game, Classic Traveller, i.e. the Little Black Books, does not pretend to give you detailed design systems for anything but space and star ships. When a game starts giving design data for existing or historical equipment, I expect some sort of correlation with reality.

And when did MT provide design data for historical equipment? Tell us where MT said "This is a M60 tanks in Traveller terms, this is a M16 rifle in Traveller terms, and this a F-16 fighter jet in Traveller terms".

The MegaTraveller articles for naval vessels do not come close to meeting that standard.

While Orr already pointed this out at length, I'll try to get through to you too. You're applying the wrong standards here. Traveller is not Springsharp or Harpoon. Traveller is not an economics text either, much to the chagrin of the folks trying to cobble together Imperial budgets from various jots and tittles.

Therefore, if they cannot be used to even remotely accurately design historic vessels, why should they be given any validity for designing anything in the future.

Score a laugh point. You're complaining that Traveller designs involving fantasy technologies aren't valid? Tell us, oh wise one, just what is the mass and volume of a TL15 fusion plant, how does such a plant work, what does such a plant need, and how can we build one?

That is one of the reasons why I am not a fan of MegaTraveller, and have major problems with the design sequence in Space;1889.

You're complaining about the accuracy of a design system for a game that has interstellar aether and anti-gravity wood? Good Sweet Mother of Christ...

There, I break out my reference materials, and figure out what really would work.

Given the continually incomprehension you've shown at COTI thus far, I'd take bets you couldn't figure out how to pour urine out of a boot. After all, you weren't able to read Andy Slack's chem warfare article and understand why the phrase "antique equivalents" was in quotes.

Orr's right. There's something about you that doesn't add up. You bloviate about being involved in gaming and game design for decades and then exhibit this level of incomprehension regarding the needs of a game versus the needs of a model?

By the way, thanks for the latest data dump. As usual, it added nothing to the discussion at all. ;)
 
Ok I'll bite.

Just how big should a fully functioning fusion reactor be at TL8? ;)

And by the way I would take those MT TLs with a pinch of salt, the approximate historical dates are a bit too late IMNSHO. Also note that different technologies achieve TL breakthroughs at different times

The guy the navy co-opted/hired had one that might fit in a typical 1000sf (93m²)apartment... if he could get the recapture efficiency up by about 3%. At which point, you're looking at a few kilowatts.
 
Morning timerover51,

Sorry to be late to the party.

I have been reading the articles that appeared in Challenge Magazine 53, 54, 60, and 61 on Wet Navy ship design and naval combat. I was wondering if anyone tried to design Tech Level Zero through Tech Level 8 ships in accordance with those rules and then compared the designs to ships that were built on Earth during those periods. Alternatively, has anyone ever tried to determine what an HMS Dreadnought from 1906, a US Fletcher-class Destroyer from World War 2, frigate USS Constitution of 1797, or a Venetian Galley of 1571 would be like if designed using the given design parameters?

Back in 2005 I began to create a spreadsheet for the Wet Navy design system using the HMS Hood, Titanic, and the WW II Flower Class Fast Frigate. My efforts stalled at Step 12. Determine power transmission agent (paddle, wheels, propeller(s)/screw(s), hydrojets, gravitic drive units). I couldn't get either the Hood's or Titanic's propeller/screw diameter to match close enough to the real world specifications that I felt okay with. Unfortunately, I'm not sure on how close the Flower Class screw diameter matched since I seem to have misplaced the file I saved to my computer.

In 2011, I appear to have decided to restart my efforts because Harry Bryan took up a project to consolidate the three articles into a single electronic document for FFE. Unfortunately, I got distracted and let my review process lapse. Hopefully, he is still working on the project and I apologize for dropping the ball.
 
Morning timerover51,

Sorry to be late to the party.



Back in 2005 I began to create a spreadsheet for the Wet Navy design system using the HMS Hood, Titanic, and the WW II Flower Class Fast Frigate. My efforts stalled at Step 12. Determine power transmission agent (paddle, wheels, propeller(s)/screw(s), hydrojets, gravitic drive units). I couldn't get either the Hood's or Titanic's propeller/screw diameter to match close enough to the real world specifications that I felt okay with. Unfortunately, I'm not sure on how close the Flower Class screw diameter matched since I seem to have misplaced the file I saved to my computer.

In 2011, I appear to have decided to restart my efforts because Harry Bryan took up a project to consolidate the three articles into a single electronic document for FFE. Unfortunately, I got distracted and let my review process lapse. Hopefully, he is still working on the project and I apologize for dropping the ball.

Yeah, that Bryan guy, where the hell has he been......

I got distracted a bit myself trying to work "Wood, Wind, Steel, and Steam" into the Referee's Manual.

I finished updating the first 4 rulebooks with the 2.20 Errata & then of course Errata 2.21 was released.

Up until this month, Nautical Force Command was a 59 pg PDF - It included the 3 Wet Navy articles, HIWG Document 2128 (Nautical Characters) and the Equalizer Project out of Challenge Magazine #61.

I have started retypsetting COACC, and decided to use that as a guidepost for reworking NFC (since Terry McInnes was the author of both.)

McInnes did all of the hard work, I have just retypeset it, and made some grammatical corrections and standardizations.

1 chapter at a time, 1 chapter at a time......
 
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