Weber's Honorverse
- Thread starter zonk
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Supplement Four
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Absolutely.
Don't forget that CT was originally created as a generic set of sci-fi game rules so that players could make up their own backgrounds. The Imperium came later.
I find the rules lend themselves (speaking of CT specifically) to more "hard sci-fi" or "hard space opera" types of backgrounds. Things like Dune, and Aliens, and Larry Niven's Known Space is highly "do-able" with CT.
Star Trek and Star Wars tend to be a little less "do-able" because they're not based as much on "hard" science.
Weber's Honorverse? Tom Clancy in space? You bet. Should be fairly easy to mold the rules into what you need them to be.
Ganidirsii O'Flynn
SOC-12
Is the Honorverse Traveller?
You betcha. It's got captial ships blasting each other, sword fights, devious politics, strategies coming to naught because of command personalities... yep, it's Traveller.
You ask, 'what do you need to do to make it happen?'. Well, that depends on what you want to do. If you want to run a game, pick one of two of the novels and tell your players to read them. This puts everyone on a firm footing. Run a campaign, and then figure out if the players are gearheads, gun-bunnies, trader princes, political manipulators, or out-and-out crooks. Modify from there.
It's pretty basic Traveller refereeing, whether you're playing in the OTU, or cobbling together something else.
Here are the Three Key Flavors in Traveller:
1. The Three Key Technologies:
FTL Drive
Unlimited Power
Anti-Grav
2. Aliens have Motives All Their Own
3. Most Big Things Need Grown-Ups To Do Them.
Good Luck!
You betcha. It's got captial ships blasting each other, sword fights, devious politics, strategies coming to naught because of command personalities... yep, it's Traveller.
You ask, 'what do you need to do to make it happen?'. Well, that depends on what you want to do. If you want to run a game, pick one of two of the novels and tell your players to read them. This puts everyone on a firm footing. Run a campaign, and then figure out if the players are gearheads, gun-bunnies, trader princes, political manipulators, or out-and-out crooks. Modify from there.
It's pretty basic Traveller refereeing, whether you're playing in the OTU, or cobbling together something else.
Here are the Three Key Flavors in Traveller:
1. The Three Key Technologies:
FTL Drive
Unlimited Power
Anti-Grav
2. Aliens have Motives All Their Own
3. Most Big Things Need Grown-Ups To Do Them.
Good Luck!
Just try not to create characters as boring as most of Weber's.
I kind of like his SF but at times what to bash him over the head for using the same character types ad infinitum.
The absolutely, utterly perfect female lead who is so flawless she is totally unrelatable to by anything even remotely human, the blundering dastardly incompetent who hates her on sight and would never have risen to power in any competent military and the evil, scheming (gasp!) socialists (AIEEEE!) who plot to rob the honest, hardworking, capitalistic monarchists....
I liked the weber stuff at first, but got a little weary of the same 2d characters and black and white sociopolitical propaganda over and over again.
If anyone tried to bring a HH clone into a game I was running (So perfect anfd flawless she was a more of a parody of a 3d character) I'd tell him his character had reached a level of perfection beyond the limits of the universe and had transcended to a higher plane. Now go try to make a more plausible character....
I kind of like his SF but at times what to bash him over the head for using the same character types ad infinitum.
The absolutely, utterly perfect female lead who is so flawless she is totally unrelatable to by anything even remotely human, the blundering dastardly incompetent who hates her on sight and would never have risen to power in any competent military and the evil, scheming (gasp!) socialists (AIEEEE!) who plot to rob the honest, hardworking, capitalistic monarchists....
I liked the weber stuff at first, but got a little weary of the same 2d characters and black and white sociopolitical propaganda over and over again.
If anyone tried to bring a HH clone into a game I was running (So perfect anfd flawless she was a more of a parody of a 3d character) I'd tell him his character had reached a level of perfection beyond the limits of the universe and had transcended to a higher plane. Now go try to make a more plausible character....
Bob Weaver
SOC-12
Now, Thing. In fairness to Weber and to HH, she didn't start out as Uber-woman. In On Basilisk Station she displayed no superhuman combat abilities whether personal or starship. She had, IIRC, one flash of intuition regarding the navigation of a ship maneuver, which was darn cool in my opinion, but she was certainly not perfect, or a caricature either. Compare Honor with her quasi-namesake Horatio Hornblower in Mr Midshipman Hornblower. Has he been accused of being a 2D caricature? I've never heard it.
Having said that, as the series progressed, Weber did keep adding to her storehouse of powers, so it's not unfair to say she became a caricature. But by book 7, Weber's prose had gotten so bloated with exposition that I stopped reading the series for that reason, rather than weak character development.
So to Zonk, I would say I agree with Mr. O'Flynn. Read the books, but stick with the first three or so. Take the universe in a different direction from the books if you want to, 'cause that makes it your Traveller Universe.
Best Regards,
Bob W.
Having said that, as the series progressed, Weber did keep adding to her storehouse of powers, so it's not unfair to say she became a caricature. But by book 7, Weber's prose had gotten so bloated with exposition that I stopped reading the series for that reason, rather than weak character development.
So to Zonk, I would say I agree with Mr. O'Flynn. Read the books, but stick with the first three or so. Take the universe in a different direction from the books if you want to, 'cause that makes it your Traveller Universe.
Best Regards,
Bob W.
I find that the main HH line got to stale in the latter half. Honor the killbot + weapon of the week.
For gaming, you're best bets are the Worlds of Honor books plus Crown of Slaves and Shadow of Saganami. These provide a lot of different viewpoints and detail. Plus, you get Anton Zilwicki, who I find is a more interesting character.
For gaming, you're best bets are the Worlds of Honor books plus Crown of Slaves and Shadow of Saganami. These provide a lot of different viewpoints and detail. Plus, you get Anton Zilwicki, who I find is a more interesting character.
The characters may get a little stale, but the setting is interesting. The technology of interstellar flight in the Honorverse would take a little work, although a copy of Fire, Fusion and Steel might help with that. You're NPCs are what you make them and I'm sure your players will manage to be "different and unexpected", mine always do...
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Zonk, I think the fleet-scale combat rules in LBB5 will be particularly useful to a Honor Harrington game.
Probably the only way to do a Honorverse fleet action.
I agree that Weber did the character inflation Ad infinitum. As has been noted Honor is his Hornblower... but I never had the same problem with Horatio. Maybe it's because the Weber books are so huge, or maybe it's because I read Forester's books long ago. Whatever.
I enjoyed the first few quite a bit. I enjoy the ones that don't have Honor in them. I even like the bits that are about the Havenites, both the 'good' ones and the 'bad' ones. Anyone, as long as it's not :nonono: Honor
But my question, answered by the above quote, should have been more specific. Fleet level actions I'm not really interested in doing, except as background. Single ship, or few ships, is more interesting, to me at least, and better RPG material.
Can Traveller do single ship actions as in the Honorverse? It seems, to me, that the emphasis is totally different. Missile attacks are the weapons of the Honorverse. TNE and FF&S introduced the X-ray laser missiles from 2300AD (or at least made them available in FF&S). Laser's as anti-missile systems are in all versions of Traveller. Spinal mounts are covered as well. The high G rating and ECM/ECCM would seem to be stickier.
Am I being pessimistic how Traveller can cover these aspects?
hmm, also wall shields... directional force screens that are weaker or non existent in certain sections?
Really, Traveller's tech is a poor fit to the Honorverse. The tech progression treats increases in tech almost as magic. At least for the first 5 books.
If you adapt the Starfire (2nd or 3rd ed) to traveller, however, you can get a really close feel. I suspect that it is due to David Webber having been the Line Developer for Starfire late 2nd and early 3rd ed.
If you adapt the Starfire (2nd or 3rd ed) to traveller, however, you can get a really close feel. I suspect that it is due to David Webber having been the Line Developer for Starfire late 2nd and early 3rd ed.
HH is just so flawless, so righteous, so fearless, so incorruptible, so honorable, so nobel, so....blech, can't go on.
It's bad enough to make the main character just so perfect that the scent of lilacs must fill the area when she defecates, but then to make the manticore navy so full of incompetents, psychopaths, rapists, traitors, etc just makes it even worse.
To top it off, I'm tired of weber constantly going on with his social views: "Ugh! Socialism bad! Me hate! Ugh! Capitalism good! Me love! Yum!" that I really quit reading his stuff after "in fury born".
Ganidirsii O'Flynn
SOC-12
I can see what folks are saying about HH after book 4. I'm a Kathryn Kurtz fan, and her characters have more than a bit of that 'uber-mensch' thing going on too (Duke Alaric Morgan being the super-dude here).
Here is the big difference between Horatio Hornblower and Honor Harrington. Horatio admits mistakes (although he plays them off) and has to pull a rabbit out of his (often-pawned) hat quite alot of the time. Honor (especially after she whacks a nemesis in one of the early books) never does. Could you imagine Honor dancing nude around the quarterdeck of HMS Indefatigueable as a bunch of Jack Tars hose her off with seawater for her shower every morning? Or forcing her officers to play bridge with her just before HMMS Chimera goes to battle stations just to handle her own pre-combat stress? Oh, wait, she's got a 'SUPER-KITTY'! She doesn't HAVE pre-combat stress....
But the main question was: Is the Honorverse Traveller? Yep, it sure as hell is. IIRC, the only two other series of novels that goes into such detail about a ship and her crew (or a fleet and her squadrons) are Roland Green's Starcruiser Shenandoah and Dave Drake's Lt. Leary/RCN series. And with all due respect to my fellow graduate of the Blackhorse Cavalry School Hard Knocks, I never really bought the idea of interstellar Jolly Jack Tars in the topgallants of an FTL ship.....
And Thing, socialism really does suck.... :rofl
Here is the big difference between Horatio Hornblower and Honor Harrington. Horatio admits mistakes (although he plays them off) and has to pull a rabbit out of his (often-pawned) hat quite alot of the time. Honor (especially after she whacks a nemesis in one of the early books) never does. Could you imagine Honor dancing nude around the quarterdeck of HMS Indefatigueable as a bunch of Jack Tars hose her off with seawater for her shower every morning? Or forcing her officers to play bridge with her just before HMMS Chimera goes to battle stations just to handle her own pre-combat stress? Oh, wait, she's got a 'SUPER-KITTY'! She doesn't HAVE pre-combat stress....
But the main question was: Is the Honorverse Traveller? Yep, it sure as hell is. IIRC, the only two other series of novels that goes into such detail about a ship and her crew (or a fleet and her squadrons) are Roland Green's Starcruiser Shenandoah and Dave Drake's Lt. Leary/RCN series. And with all due respect to my fellow graduate of the Blackhorse Cavalry School Hard Knocks, I never really bought the idea of interstellar Jolly Jack Tars in the topgallants of an FTL ship.....
And Thing, socialism really does suck.... :rofl
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BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
I admit having to phase into skimming mode every time David Drake starts into another "trimming/walking the masts" set... it is a little too too, you know.
Good series, though, even though Leary, Mundy, et al are also getting a bit infallable, now aren't they?
I liked the Shenandoah series too.
Good series, though, even though Leary, Mundy, et al are also getting a bit infallable, now aren't they?
I liked the Shenandoah series too.
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
Hmmmm..... converting HH tech to/from Traveller.
You'll need LBB5 and/or FFS. Make the Manties TL14 or 15, with the Peeps 2 tech levels below the Manties.
For the weapons, I'd make Traveller turret weapons the "countermissile launchers (CM)/point defense laser clusters(PD)" of HH. The missile launchers of HH would be bay missile launchers. Make bay plasma guns the broadside laser mounts, and bay fusion guns the broadside grasers. Smaller ships (up to CLs) use 50-dton bays while the big ships use 100-dton bays. If you later want to have battleships and superdreadnoughts fighting you might want to invent bigger, more powerful bay weapons (or look here: http://home.comcast.net/~steveosmanski/New_HG_weapons_mounts.htm). Play around with the ranges so that missiles really (by a factor of 10) outrange beam weapons, but beam weapons get a small range bonus if firing at the bow or stern of the target (no sidewalls there, at least at first). Turret weapons can't damage ships that have armor or sidewalls, but can be used against unarmored/unshielded targets.
For defenses, armor is armor although you might want to create a simple system to allocate armor to the six sides of the ship (top, bottom, bow, stern, port, starboard). The drive wedge makes the top and bottom invulnerable as long as the drive is up.
The sidewalls are something you'll have to invent. Their strength is always proportional to the ship size (until the uber-tech of later books) and they degrade gracefully (one hit won't take out all your sidewall on one side) and don't seem to take up much space. They must be fairly expensive since civilian ships don't usually bother.
As for the drives, the Traveller jump drive can become the hyper generator of HH, although there's no need for jump fuel in HH. Each level of jump becomes about 1.5 levels of hyperspace the ship can reach. Most warships carry a hyper generator that lets them reach the Theta hyper bands.
Traveller maneuver drives can be the impeller drive of HH, just remember to adjust the "G" ratings accordingly and also remember that the drive is always split up between two drive rooms (forward and aft) and is subdivided into "nodes," some of which are bigger and more necessary (alpha nodes) than the more numerous beta nodes. The "inertial compensator" that keeps getting shot in the HH books could be bought as part of the maneuver drive but is located separately and can be hit on its own.
As for converting ship sizes, I'd use the "one bay weapon or 10 turrets per 1000 dtons" rule of LBB5 and build ships that way, getting the weapons numbers from the HH books and/or Ad Astra's "Saganami Island Tactical Simulator" game, if you have it.
Rough weapons fits/ship sizes:
early LAC - 4 missiles, 4 beams, 6 PD = 9000 dtons
Chanson-class DD - 10 missiles, 6 lasers, 12CM, 12 PD = 19,000 dtons
Apollo-class CL - 14 missiles, 14 lasers, 14CM, 14PD = 31,000 dtons
Star Knight-class CA - 20 missiles, 12 beams, 26CM, 26PD = 38,000 dtons
Reliant-class BC - 52 missiles, 34 beams, 32 CM, 32PD = 93,000 dtons
Peep ships tend to have more missiles, fewer CMs and more PDs.
For small craft, there's really only two: the "cutter" and the "pinnace/assault shuttle." HH cutters are about the size of Traveller cutters (50 dtons) but can only accelerate slowly (no impeller drive). Pinnaces are at least the size of Traveller shuttles (95 dtons) and have impeller drive so they are quite fast (not as fast as ships) and they have room for a full platoon of troops in battledress.
You'll need LBB5 and/or FFS. Make the Manties TL14 or 15, with the Peeps 2 tech levels below the Manties.
For the weapons, I'd make Traveller turret weapons the "countermissile launchers (CM)/point defense laser clusters(PD)" of HH. The missile launchers of HH would be bay missile launchers. Make bay plasma guns the broadside laser mounts, and bay fusion guns the broadside grasers. Smaller ships (up to CLs) use 50-dton bays while the big ships use 100-dton bays. If you later want to have battleships and superdreadnoughts fighting you might want to invent bigger, more powerful bay weapons (or look here: http://home.comcast.net/~steveosmanski/New_HG_weapons_mounts.htm). Play around with the ranges so that missiles really (by a factor of 10) outrange beam weapons, but beam weapons get a small range bonus if firing at the bow or stern of the target (no sidewalls there, at least at first). Turret weapons can't damage ships that have armor or sidewalls, but can be used against unarmored/unshielded targets.
For defenses, armor is armor although you might want to create a simple system to allocate armor to the six sides of the ship (top, bottom, bow, stern, port, starboard). The drive wedge makes the top and bottom invulnerable as long as the drive is up.
The sidewalls are something you'll have to invent. Their strength is always proportional to the ship size (until the uber-tech of later books) and they degrade gracefully (one hit won't take out all your sidewall on one side) and don't seem to take up much space. They must be fairly expensive since civilian ships don't usually bother.
As for the drives, the Traveller jump drive can become the hyper generator of HH, although there's no need for jump fuel in HH. Each level of jump becomes about 1.5 levels of hyperspace the ship can reach. Most warships carry a hyper generator that lets them reach the Theta hyper bands.
Traveller maneuver drives can be the impeller drive of HH, just remember to adjust the "G" ratings accordingly and also remember that the drive is always split up between two drive rooms (forward and aft) and is subdivided into "nodes," some of which are bigger and more necessary (alpha nodes) than the more numerous beta nodes. The "inertial compensator" that keeps getting shot in the HH books could be bought as part of the maneuver drive but is located separately and can be hit on its own.
As for converting ship sizes, I'd use the "one bay weapon or 10 turrets per 1000 dtons" rule of LBB5 and build ships that way, getting the weapons numbers from the HH books and/or Ad Astra's "Saganami Island Tactical Simulator" game, if you have it.
Rough weapons fits/ship sizes:
early LAC - 4 missiles, 4 beams, 6 PD = 9000 dtons
Chanson-class DD - 10 missiles, 6 lasers, 12CM, 12 PD = 19,000 dtons
Apollo-class CL - 14 missiles, 14 lasers, 14CM, 14PD = 31,000 dtons
Star Knight-class CA - 20 missiles, 12 beams, 26CM, 26PD = 38,000 dtons
Reliant-class BC - 52 missiles, 34 beams, 32 CM, 32PD = 93,000 dtons
Peep ships tend to have more missiles, fewer CMs and more PDs.
For small craft, there's really only two: the "cutter" and the "pinnace/assault shuttle." HH cutters are about the size of Traveller cutters (50 dtons) but can only accelerate slowly (no impeller drive). Pinnaces are at least the size of Traveller shuttles (95 dtons) and have impeller drive so they are quite fast (not as fast as ships) and they have room for a full platoon of troops in battledress.
lightsenshi
SOC-12
I'm going to suggest that you wander over to my Traveller website for some Harrington-eque ideas on how to it. I've toyed a bit with the concept and even put some of it on paper (so to speak).
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I picked this up a few times, but I've heard from three other people that it was crap.
Was I mis-informed?
I've read only the first three HH books. So far, I've enjoyed them. They're not great literature, by any stretch. And, I think Weber's scenes where a bunch or admirals or politicians are sitting around a table dicussing the "big" issues reads like an expository scene from a computer game. But, he does write the battle scenes well. And, the books do have a great atmosphere to them--a nifty mix of 1800's sailing ships and Tom Clancy high tech.
I bought the whole series. Its there, waiting on my shelf, when I'm ready to pick up the next book. I'm sorry to hear that many think its crap in the future.
I was looking forward to continuing with the series.
Hey, what about Mike Shepherd's Kris Longknife series. The first book is Muntineer. I saw it at the bookstore the other day.
Anyone have an opinion on that one?
Where have you seen the Roland Green stuff? It's been in none of the bookstores I visit!
I liked it up until about the eighth book, and then the exposition-love got to me. But read it for yourself, it's the only way to make sure.
Did you notice that her name is basically two forms of stabbing instrument? :devil: I haven't read it, and there are books I would rather read first.
I've read all the Kris Longknife ones so far. Easy reading, and things are generally a bit too pat, but they are enjoyable if quick reads. One interesting thing about them is that they have FTL but no artificial gravity: the space stations spin for grav, and they have none on-board the ships. They have to strap down for maneuvers and stuff like that.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
For Roland Green's Starcruiser Shenandoah, look in used bookstores... the series started in the late 1980s and has not been reprinted recently.
The Kris Longknife ones are fun, but the "very competent heroine-haters" here won't like it either.
Mostly it all depends on what you are looking for, and whether you want everyone to be deeply flawed and succeed only through chance, or if you like protagonists that are decent, self-disciplined, competent people who do a good job at creating standards for themselves and living up to them.
The Kris Longknife ones are fun, but the "very competent heroine-haters" here won't like it either.
Mostly it all depends on what you are looking for, and whether you want everyone to be deeply flawed and succeed only through chance, or if you like protagonists that are decent, self-disciplined, competent people who do a good job at creating standards for themselves and living up to them.
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