Wanted: CT/MT Stats for Mac SMG
- Thread starter plop101
- Start date
In what way do you suspect these differ significantly from the standard SMG in the game?
To my observation, they have:
1) potentially a lower sonic signature if a suppressor is attached
2) Potentially larger caliber rounds (11mm vs. 9mm, but then again, that's still 3 damage)
3) Similar ROF/AF targets
4) Perhaps greater concealability without the suppressor, but we don't really rate that anyway
5) Firing on probably the Handgun chart for difficulty and using the SMG skill
6) Having a variety of magazine capacities, such as 25, 30, 32, 40.
The Ingram MAC-10 or 11 is probably a lot like the standard SMG. It might have a different weight and nominal length, but weapon stats in MT are fairly course and most bullets do 3 damage. Penetration might or might not argue for being one better than a 9mm auto pistol, probably not without the suppressor on anyway for barrel length. Maybe not even then. And attenuation will be the same.
Hope that helps.
To my observation, they have:
1) potentially a lower sonic signature if a suppressor is attached
2) Potentially larger caliber rounds (11mm vs. 9mm, but then again, that's still 3 damage)
3) Similar ROF/AF targets
4) Perhaps greater concealability without the suppressor, but we don't really rate that anyway
5) Firing on probably the Handgun chart for difficulty and using the SMG skill
6) Having a variety of magazine capacities, such as 25, 30, 32, 40.
The Ingram MAC-10 or 11 is probably a lot like the standard SMG. It might have a different weight and nominal length, but weapon stats in MT are fairly course and most bullets do 3 damage. Penetration might or might not argue for being one better than a 9mm auto pistol, probably not without the suppressor on anyway for barrel length. Maybe not even then. And attenuation will be the same.
Hope that helps.
I generally agree with Kaladorn here.
For all Macs use autopistol dex mods and range matrix. I suggest using the shoulder stock makes the range matrix -2 +2 0 -6 no
Mac 10 use SMG Weapons maxtrix
Mac 11 is in .380 ACP, essentially a body-pistol round. Autopistol dex mods and range table. But the MAC-10 should use this Weapon's Matrix:
+4 +4 -1 -4 +4 +2 -6
Sorry I took so long to respond
For all Macs use autopistol dex mods and range matrix. I suggest using the shoulder stock makes the range matrix -2 +2 0 -6 no
Mac 10 use SMG Weapons maxtrix
Mac 11 is in .380 ACP, essentially a body-pistol round. Autopistol dex mods and range table. But the MAC-10 should use this Weapon's Matrix:
+4 +4 -1 -4 +4 +2 -6
Sorry I took so long to respond
Well, I can go along with most of what you guys have said. I dug up the old Small Arms Guide from Twilight:2000, and the damage and penetration {armor} are exactly the same as the UZI, which in CT book one is one of the default examples for the submachinegun.
I guess my question revolves around ROF. The Small Arms Guide lists Mac-10 as having ROF of 11, as opposed to the Uzi's [4] ROF and the Sten Mk II's [3] ROF. Similarly, GURPS materials I've seen lists Mac-10 as having ROF 19 and Uzi as having ROF 10. So I guess I'm wondering if having more ROF (at least double) will make a difference in the stats?
Just pondering.
I guess my question revolves around ROF. The Small Arms Guide lists Mac-10 as having ROF of 11, as opposed to the Uzi's [4] ROF and the Sten Mk II's [3] ROF. Similarly, GURPS materials I've seen lists Mac-10 as having ROF 19 and Uzi as having ROF 10. So I guess I'm wondering if having more ROF (at least double) will make a difference in the stats?
Just pondering.
From an MT PoV, you generally get a number of autofire target based on burst size, the assumption being you aren't engaged in fire at cyclic rates, but aimed bursts.
This means your burst, being a 4 round burst, will grant you two additional AF targets. To get 3 additional AF targets, I believe you need 10 round bursts. That'd drain a MAC mag real quick.
However, I do think the MAC should have the /R modifier in MT to allow it to have 'rapid fire'.
This would let you reflect its ability to drain the mag quite quick.
These cyclic differences are overrated in most games - you don't often take any real advantage of them. The only sensible spot I saw was a defense of giving the german G11 caseless AR some better stats because of its superfast ROF - this meant that the final shot of a burst was out of the barrel before the gun really started to climb. But otherwise, this kind of distinction rarely plays in except perhaps in sustained fire weapons like MMGs or HMGs.
You've only got a 25 or 30 round mag... do you really care that your cyclic rate is 3000 rpm? You can blow the mag off fast even in an UZI, and still hit sweet FA for the most part.
This means your burst, being a 4 round burst, will grant you two additional AF targets. To get 3 additional AF targets, I believe you need 10 round bursts. That'd drain a MAC mag real quick.
However, I do think the MAC should have the /R modifier in MT to allow it to have 'rapid fire'.
This would let you reflect its ability to drain the mag quite quick.
These cyclic differences are overrated in most games - you don't often take any real advantage of them. The only sensible spot I saw was a defense of giving the german G11 caseless AR some better stats because of its superfast ROF - this meant that the final shot of a burst was out of the barrel before the gun really started to climb. But otherwise, this kind of distinction rarely plays in except perhaps in sustained fire weapons like MMGs or HMGs.
You've only got a 25 or 30 round mag... do you really care that your cyclic rate is 3000 rpm? You can blow the mag off fast even in an UZI, and still hit sweet FA for the most part.
Uzi has a rof of 600 rpm. Mac 10 amd 9/10 1100 rpm, Mac11 1600 rpm.
I didn't note any of this because CT isn't this granular. Actually both MACs are famous for emptying their magazines in 1 or 2 bursts.
Other SMGs
M1928A1 Thompson -- 700 rpm (M1921 1000 rpm)
M3 "Grease Gun" -- 450 rpm
MP38 "Schmeisser" -- 500 rpm (and yes, I know Hugo didn't design it)
Sten gun -- 450 rpm
PPSh-41 "Burp gun" --900 rpm
m/45 "Swedish K" -- 600 rpm
HK MP5 -- 800 rpm
M16A1 -- 750 rpm
AKM -- 600 rpm
I didn't note any of this because CT isn't this granular. Actually both MACs are famous for emptying their magazines in 1 or 2 bursts.
Other SMGs
M1928A1 Thompson -- 700 rpm (M1921 1000 rpm)
M3 "Grease Gun" -- 450 rpm
MP38 "Schmeisser" -- 500 rpm (and yes, I know Hugo didn't design it)
Sten gun -- 450 rpm
PPSh-41 "Burp gun" --900 rpm
m/45 "Swedish K" -- 600 rpm
HK MP5 -- 800 rpm
M16A1 -- 750 rpm
AKM -- 600 rpm
Kaladorn and Uncle Bob:
Belated Thank yous Guys, I really did appreciate your take on the issue.
I remember seeing the Mac-10 in a John Wayne movie, can't recal the name of it, it was one where he was trying to out do Clint Eastwood. Anyway, there is a car chase on a beach, and bad guys car pulls up next to JW's car. The Duke, one hand on the stearing wheel, picks up the Mac-10 with the other, and shreds the bad guys car. Probably WAY to cinematic, but ever since then I always had an affection for the Mac-10.
Again, thanks guys. If your PC's ever wind up at Arba/Spinward Marches, the SPA guys will give you a one time free ship refueling.
Belated Thank yous Guys, I really did appreciate your take on the issue.
I remember seeing the Mac-10 in a John Wayne movie, can't recal the name of it, it was one where he was trying to out do Clint Eastwood. Anyway, there is a car chase on a beach, and bad guys car pulls up next to JW's car. The Duke, one hand on the stearing wheel, picks up the Mac-10 with the other, and shreds the bad guys car. Probably WAY to cinematic, but ever since then I always had an affection for the Mac-10.
Again, thanks guys. If your PC's ever wind up at Arba/Spinward Marches, the SPA guys will give you a one time free ship refueling.
jchurchill
SOC-12
I think that movie was called "McQ" or something like that...Wayne is an American policeman in London but I vaguely recall the scene.
Having had the opportunity to fire both the MAC 10 and it's smaller cousin the MAC 11 I can report that they are highly impractical and roar through entire magazine in the blinkof eye...whether the shooter wishes to or not. They are also wildly inaccurate and can be prone to jam. Other than that they are great fun to shoot.
If your target is about the distance of a good dining table you should have no problems. Just make sure that anything you do not wish to hit is directly behind you.
The MAC makes the Sterling or the Kulspruta ["Swedish K" beloved of the CIA in the 1960's and 1970's] look like sniper rifles. Both are a good bit bigger but are much more easily controlled, much less prone to jamming and the accuracy is not affected by the greater kick of the .45 cal.
[I also had a chance to fire both of these on another occ.] The best of the SMG's in my humble and limited exp. is the H&K MP-5. Accurate, lightweight and easy to control.
Having had the opportunity to fire both the MAC 10 and it's smaller cousin the MAC 11 I can report that they are highly impractical and roar through entire magazine in the blinkof eye...whether the shooter wishes to or not. They are also wildly inaccurate and can be prone to jam. Other than that they are great fun to shoot.
If your target is about the distance of a good dining table you should have no problems. Just make sure that anything you do not wish to hit is directly behind you.
The MAC makes the Sterling or the Kulspruta ["Swedish K" beloved of the CIA in the 1960's and 1970's] look like sniper rifles. Both are a good bit bigger but are much more easily controlled, much less prone to jamming and the accuracy is not affected by the greater kick of the .45 cal.
[I also had a chance to fire both of these on another occ.] The best of the SMG's in my humble and limited exp. is the H&K MP-5. Accurate, lightweight and easy to control.
What's the hex coords and subsector letter for Arba?
I'll have my PCs in the Haaka Vilaaru (Star Wind) drop by....
(and has it a landgrab?)
On a note to Bob, I recall seeing 3000 rpm cyclic for something which I thought was the MAC-10, but it might have been the XM-177 or the G-11. Or, alternative 2, I could be utterly confused.
At any rate, the point is the same: The difference between 1000 rpm and 600-800 rpm isn't much if you're firing 3-5 round bursts, the way you are supposed to.
And in MT, Rapid Fire is rapid fire
I'll have my PCs in the Haaka Vilaaru (Star Wind) drop by....
(and has it a landgrab?)
On a note to Bob, I recall seeing 3000 rpm cyclic for something which I thought was the MAC-10, but it might have been the XM-177 or the G-11. Or, alternative 2, I could be utterly confused.
At any rate, the point is the same: The difference between 1000 rpm and 600-800 rpm isn't much if you're firing 3-5 round bursts, the way you are supposed to.
And in MT, Rapid Fire is rapid fire
Except it is a lot harder to squeeze off 3-4 rd bursts at 1000 rpm, it usually comes out 5-6.
SecretAgent, I concur about McQ and the MP5. A friend of mine had a MP5SD which was incredibly fun. I popped 3 one gallon jugs at 20m from the hip with three busrts, about 12 rounds. (First burst 6 rd "walked" onto the 1st jug, then thp-thp-thp and thp-thp-thp for 2nd and 3rd.)
For some reason my friends didn't believe me when I told them I hadn't fired one before.
SecretAgent, I concur about McQ and the MP5. A friend of mine had a MP5SD which was incredibly fun. I popped 3 one gallon jugs at 20m from the hip with three busrts, about 12 rounds. (First burst 6 rd "walked" onto the 1st jug, then thp-thp-thp and thp-thp-thp for 2nd and 3rd.)
For some reason my friends didn't believe me when I told them I hadn't fired one before.
Kaladorn writes:
Ring-Ray 9928-62735
subsector letter K
Smack dab in the middle of the Marches.
Arba 1721 Lunion subsector Spinward Marches
Ring-Ray 9928-62735
subsector letter K
Smack dab in the middle of the Marches.
It does. There are two versions. The original 1.0 version can be accessed at the TML landgrab site. Basically, its the version using Mr Eaglestones Starport stuff, and is set in 1105. Version 3.0 was posted here at COTI on the Imperial Scout forum. It used GT Far Trader, GT Starports, and a few other programs. You should be able to find that using the COTI search feature. Oh yeah, its set in 1106; after the big starport disaster. Gotta make room for the new starport; blow up the old one.
You're confusing two JW movies, Brannigan set in London, and McQ set in Seattle and featuring the MAC-10
The .45acp MAC-10 fires between 1000-1200 rpm, depending on ammunition. With its 30 rnd magazine, that's still 1.5 seconds. It is in fact, quite easy to get off several bursts. It is certainly not an accurate weapon, but one of it's chief virtues, besides size, is that it is one of the most relaible SMGs ever made.
I've never understood why the MP-5 has so many fans once you shoot it. It ceratinly has a 'coolness factor' but it's close bolt function effectively increases the recoil compared to simpler open bolt guns. It's great of you want a 9mm carbine, but as an SMG it has it's drawbacks. It's rate of fire is much too high as well, IMHO. The K and Madsen both have more reasonable rates of fire, as does my own personal favorite, the Sterling. I own a PAWS ZX-5, a US made copy of the Serling. It is one of the few SMGs one can comfortably fire while lying prone.
For those who might be interested, we have a full auto shoot twice a year here in western Oregon, May and December. Some photos for your amusement are at:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/shooting/dec00-shoot/index.htm
jchurchill
SOC-12
SecretAgent, I concur about McQ and the MP5. A friend of mine had a MP5SD which was incredibly fun. I popped 3 one gallon jugs at 20m from the hip with three busrts, about 12 rounds. (First burst 6 rd "walked" onto the 1st jug, then thp-thp-thp and thp-thp-thp for 2nd and 3rd.)
For some reason my friends didn't believe me when I told them I hadn't fired one before.
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Uncle Bob,
That's the remarkable thing about the MP5...it takes fairly little training and practice to use it in an effective manner.
For some reason my friends didn't believe me when I told them I hadn't fired one before.
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Uncle Bob,
That's the remarkable thing about the MP5...it takes fairly little training and practice to use it in an effective manner.
jchurchill
SOC-12
You're confusing two JW movies, Brannigan set in London, and McQ set in Seattle and featuring the MAC-10
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DOH! Then again his non western roles all tend to blend together to me.
It is in fact, quite easy to get off several bursts. It is certainly not an accurate weapon, but one of it's chief virtues, besides size, is that it is one of the most relaible SMGs ever made.
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I must admit I fired one particular one on one day but my initial impression [other than "this is fun wasting lots of expensive ammunition"] was that it was hard to get defined bursts from it. Perhaps it was just my inexperience with it. The one I used did not jam but the owner told me that it had jammed on him before. Actually, he told me that it had failed to feed properly on the first shot as opposed to jamming mid burst.
I've never understood why the MP-5 has so many fans once you shoot it. It ceratinly has a 'coolness factor' but it's close bolt function effectively increases the recoil compared to simpler open bolt guns.
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I was again limited to a one time use but I found it easier to control. It is used or was used by the SAS and the SEALS and those people seem to know what they are doing when it comes to these things. I don't know of any SF or other people who use the the MAC or have chosen it as an issue weapon...??
The K and Madsen both have more reasonable rates of fire, as does my own personal favorite, the Sterling. I own a PAWS ZX-5, a US made copy of the Serling. It is one of the few SMGs one can comfortably fire while lying prone.
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Never fired the Madsen but I did get the chsnce to fire the K and the Sterling. I thought both of those were excellent. Never tried firing the Sterling prone but of course it makes sense that it would be easy to do.
I have always been curious to try the classic WWII SMGs to see how they compare to the 4 modern ones [MAC, Sterling, K, and MP5] that I have fired:
wish list
STen
Thompson
M-3
MP-40
Lanchester
PPSH 41
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DOH! Then again his non western roles all tend to blend together to me.
It is in fact, quite easy to get off several bursts. It is certainly not an accurate weapon, but one of it's chief virtues, besides size, is that it is one of the most relaible SMGs ever made.
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I must admit I fired one particular one on one day but my initial impression [other than "this is fun wasting lots of expensive ammunition"] was that it was hard to get defined bursts from it. Perhaps it was just my inexperience with it. The one I used did not jam but the owner told me that it had jammed on him before. Actually, he told me that it had failed to feed properly on the first shot as opposed to jamming mid burst.
I've never understood why the MP-5 has so many fans once you shoot it. It ceratinly has a 'coolness factor' but it's close bolt function effectively increases the recoil compared to simpler open bolt guns.
=================================================
I was again limited to a one time use but I found it easier to control. It is used or was used by the SAS and the SEALS and those people seem to know what they are doing when it comes to these things. I don't know of any SF or other people who use the the MAC or have chosen it as an issue weapon...??
The K and Madsen both have more reasonable rates of fire, as does my own personal favorite, the Sterling. I own a PAWS ZX-5, a US made copy of the Serling. It is one of the few SMGs one can comfortably fire while lying prone.
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Never fired the Madsen but I did get the chsnce to fire the K and the Sterling. I thought both of those were excellent. Never tried firing the Sterling prone but of course it makes sense that it would be easy to do.
I have always been curious to try the classic WWII SMGs to see how they compare to the 4 modern ones [MAC, Sterling, K, and MP5] that I have fired:
wish list
STen
Thompson
M-3
MP-40
Lanchester
PPSH 41
Of course the SEALs really didn't like the locked breech of the MP-5, and HK ended up designing a new SMG for them which ultimately became the UMP. Note that the UMP does not have the vaunted roller lock. In fact, HK has abandoned the roller lock in their new weapons.
Sten is a piece of junk - but works. Ergonomics, what ergonomics?
The Thompson is a classic chopper. Heavy, but easy to control, and in a hearty caliber. The M3 that replaced it sucks! Never fired the MP-40, but the lancaster is really muzzle heavy. Hell, it's heavy period.
Looking for a Thompson. I've got one for sale. See http://www.guntech.com/sale/
Firing from the closed bolt gives better first burst accuracy. The MP-5 is widely considered to be more accurate than the other SMGs, and this explains why police and CT forces like it.
We used to call our version the C1 SMG in CF IIRC. It was a pretty decent weapon, but the side fed banana mag can be a bit of a bane in some urban situations. And it wasn't terribly accurate - okay for an SMG, but certainly I'd rather have a C8 carbine. Or my FN. Now, mind you, when I had to do FIBUA (fighting in built up areas), I'd gladly have traded the damn FN C1 for something shorter.... *grin*
Ick. What a bit of junk... construction wise. You could just get a few cheap sheet metal parts and make yourself one.
They're okay, though the Tommy Gun might have been of better construction, depending on the vintage.
MP-40
Quite an interesting weapon. As is the MP-38, its predecessor.
My personal interest was always in the MP-44, as the early model of an assault rifle.
That latter one was very popular. Slow to change mags, but 71 or 72 round mags are pretty popular in close quarters combat.
PS - As a Canadian, I find it moderately hilarious to find people talking about firing MP-5s and MP5-SDs, as that'd be pretty freakin' unlikely up here. If you are in a police ERT team, you might have fired an MP5. (Or a diplomatic protection team). MP5-SD? Good luck. And MAC-10s and whatnot? No chance unless you were a ballistics lab or the rare gangbanger with one. Then again, when a cop dies in Canada in the line of duty, it makes national front headline news. And gun murders are still relatively rare here, thank god. If that's the trade off for not having a chance to fire an MP5SD (arguably, it may not be... but who can say for sure?) then I guess that's a trade off most folks up here would be happy with. Still, I'd like to try the SD!
It occurs to me to agree that the Thompson is a pretty good weapon. And if you're lucky, you can get one of the old ones with the drum mag, for that raid-a-speakeasy kinda look.
I myself prefer the M1911 to any 9mm pistol I've ever fired... I find .45 ACP more accurate for me and the recoil more controllable and predictable... I find most 9mm firearms kinda 'jumpy'. And the .45 does give you a bit more of a good feeling in terms of the size of the hole it leaves... esp the hollowpoints.
The MP-40 was an okay weapon too, but there are plenty of accounts of Germans trading it in for the PPSh 41.
I think, with the PPSh 41 and the Kalashnikov, the Russians showed (and the T-34, come to think of it) that they could really design some good basic kit. A design ethic far too often eschewed by those who want 'fancy features'.
I myself prefer the M1911 to any 9mm pistol I've ever fired... I find .45 ACP more accurate for me and the recoil more controllable and predictable... I find most 9mm firearms kinda 'jumpy'. And the .45 does give you a bit more of a good feeling in terms of the size of the hole it leaves... esp the hollowpoints.
The MP-40 was an okay weapon too, but there are plenty of accounts of Germans trading it in for the PPSh 41.
I think, with the PPSh 41 and the Kalashnikov, the Russians showed (and the T-34, come to think of it) that they could really design some good basic kit. A design ethic far too often eschewed by those who want 'fancy features'.
jwcarroll60
SOC-12
I agree with you about the M1911 (and its variants), and about the 9mm. What's the 9 good for, it over penetrates and doesn't deliver on knockdown power. Make mine 45 (230gr JHP) anytime.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
As a Brit, it's pretty weird seeing people - well, civilians, anyway - talking about firing *anything*. I'm not sure if I've ever even held a real, live gun. Certainly not a loaded one.
OTOH, I did used to build Challenger 2s for a living, so I guess I outgunned most of you...
