• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Vilani Language, Grammar and Lexicon

I like using accents better: e'ne.ri, or e.ne'ri, or just ene'ri. It's also pretty standard fare in fantasy novels to throw apostrophes around like they're going out of style, so fantasy readers are used to seeing them. Oh look, Elvish!
Oops! sorry. I was thinking in terms of Ruuraak when I came up with that part about the additional 'verbal tone-encoding' characters! I don't for the life of me understand now why I thought you would automatically recognize that as well ... :rolleyes:

Yes, of course. For Latin-script renderings of Bilanidin, you are absolutely right -- accents are much better.
 
I was there, though ten years ago your posts on the TML boggled me. It took years of casual rereading before I had an inkling. [...] Hi Kenji, it's me, Rob Eaglestone. I emailed you about Vilani a few years ago. We had three or four exchanges. That's when I picked up your posts and cobbled it together.

Hi, Rob! My apologies, I didn't mean to imply you weren't there, and I definitely remember corresponding with you a few years later about the leftover/incomplete materials.

TravLang was a frustrating experience for me, but then a lot of frustrating things were going on for me back then. I wrote most of those posts in an extremely irritable and half-assed state of mind... and drunk, quite often. Regrettable ;(

So I'm totally jazzed that both of you are here... maybe we can package this thing up properly and stamp it 1.0.

Because at this point, that's my goal.

Standard Vilani, version 1.0

Oh yeah baby, if we can get there, I'd be SO happy. Egad!

So then, obviously, YOU'RE in charge! I'm just along for the ride, then :D
 
Admittedly, that is the most flummoxing part of this language. Do we even know what the purpose of the tonality is yet? What is it supposed to reflect? Semantics? Mood? Case structure? Social status/direction?

I wasn't thinking of anything so exotic! Really I always tried to keep Vilani a very naturalistic human (solomani, if you like) language. I had the impression that many of the readers back then felt that anything not familiar to them from Spanish, German, or (for the really exotic) Japanese or Chinese was simply too silly and implausible to belong in Vilani :oo: I'd figured that tone in Vilani was simply lexical; maybe used in a very limited way to express 'inflectional' or 'conjugational' categories.

At the moment, I'm just kludging it to a minimalist state -- my riff is that strict tonality is an Old High Vilani trait; all but the most puritanical dialects of the language have "flattened" considerably ... most likely due to influence from their dominant Anglic-speaking neighbors.

The historical depth you've been building -- including the automated sound change files -- is really cool -- love to see more of it!

That's not canon, of course; but I'd dearly love for someone to explain to me exactly what all the sing-songiness is supposed to accomplish! ;)

<shrug> Same things as phonological features in any language, I'd say.

I'd LIKE to be able to walk back the language at least as far as Archaic Vilani, as well as the Chekaal and Old Dirmani ancestors/borrowings. But then again, I also need to build that Gashikani generator, too ... and just today I had a light bulb go off about building modern Vilani personal names out of Old Dirmani compounds ... :oo:

Oh...? Tell all! :)
 
Tones in Vilani

I just have a few minutes to post this, and nothing thought out for Vilani here, but wanted to throw some data points out there:

* "Tone" is a term of art in linguistics, and is not the same thing as pitch or stress, or even musical tone.
* When people think of tonal languages, they think of Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, or mix in pitch accent in Greek or Lithuanian. This distorts understanding of what tone is/can be in human language.
* By # of languages, most tonal languages are in Subsaharan Africa or Mesoamerica, not East/Southeast Asia. (In fact, most languages of Subsaharan Africa are tonal languages.)
* It's a widespread misconception that tonal languages are isolating and have monosyllabic words. Many languages are agglutinating (i.e., "have affixes") and are tone languages (i.e., each syllable or mora has distinctive tone.)
* I think Vilani should be in the latter category. 1) it's cool, 2) it's highly naturalistic but still unfamiliar to most people, 3) it's how John Harshmann or whoever it was at GDW described the language in JTAS 25+ years ago.
* So, I'd point us towards languages like Yoruba or Mazatec for inspiration.
* OTOH, to make Vilani more user-friendly for tone-shy fans, I had the thought of combining "tone" in the strict sense with phonation, which is also fairly common (in SE Asia at least -- e.g., Vietnamese).
* OTOOH, explaining phonation might be just as bad. Is three tones and two phonations worse than six tones?
 
Many languages are agglutinating (i.e., "have affixes") and are tone languages (i.e., each syllable or mora has distinctive tone.)
* I think Vilani should be in the latter category.

I'll try to digest the rest of your post, but that's how I incorporated tone/pitch-accent into Vilani - each syllable has its own. Or, put another way, patterns inflict themselves upon the syllables available on the word.
 
I wasn't thinking of anything so exotic! Really I always tried to keep Vilani a very naturalistic human (solomani, if you like) language. I had the impression that many of the readers back then felt that anything not familiar to them from Spanish, German, or (for the really exotic) Japanese or Chinese was simply too silly and implausible to belong in Vilani :oo:
Mac, you're talking to a guy who's exposed to written Hmong on a near-daily basis. A completely real language, of course ... and at least a thousand years old; but in print it looks crazier and science fictiony-er than anything anyone's ever inflicted on the Traveller universe. Here's a link to a Hmong-language news article, in case you've never seen it in print before ...

And of course it's extremely tonal ... far more than anything anyone's ever conceived (nor should!) for Vilani. I'm also hearing a lot of Amharic and Somali on the streets these days, too; so I doubt this iteration of Vilani discussions is going to be as Indo-European-centric as what you had to put up with in those days of yore.

I'd figured that tone in Vilani was simply lexical; maybe used in a very limited way to express 'inflectional' or 'conjugational' categories.
Well, now that Robject showed me those parts on tone patterns that I had missed, I see that's basically where he went with it. :D

The historical depth you've been building -- including the automated sound change files -- is really cool -- love to see more of it!
Well, Rob had built some SC files before I got around to them. The main reason I developed them further was because there were already an armload of "handmade" OHV etymologies plugged into the lexicon, and I wanted to make sure that any sound change files reflected those realities.

And the historian in me says that the changes in a language must be important markers in their own right -- that it's useful (or in the case of the Traveller universe, 'colorful') to know what the social circumstances were that helped cause those shifts. It's sort of like discussing the Great Vowel Shift without knowing anything about the social turmoils of Late Medieval/Early Modern England, or writing an article about the vast simplifications that Old English grammar went through while pretending the Norman Conquest was just a fad.

Oh...? Tell all! :)
Well, my goal for 'Gashikani' is to create a language that is just about a step past that of a dialectic variance with Standard Vilani ... basically like how I've heard Germans describe what it's like for them to communicate with native Dutch speakers (and vice-versa, I suppose). There's also an element of isolated colonialism about them, so I figure that means a more conservative language (both in grammar and morphology) from the basepoint of their settlement era. This would mean (to me, at least) "walking back" a Standard Vilani word to its OHV equivalent, adding a few extra AV "holdovers," and then putting in an additional layer representing the local Yileans (the local minor human race of the region) attempting to get their alien mouths around the Vilani pronunciation system.

And then of course it gets walked back, with some subtle but far-ranging variances from the Standard Vilani. An example would be the Vilani 'b.' I see that as having been a voiced bilabial (af)fricative in the past (hence the Anglic 'v'/'b' confusion). In Vilani it evolved into a true plosive; but I could see Gashikani, for instance, going down the road of perhaps gently "sliding" the consonant into a voiced approximate of some sort (vaguely similar to an Anglic 'w'). The same relationship could be made between the OHV's intervocalic 'h' (which has effectively disappeared in SV), and a Gashikani 'y.'

I suppose there would be a simpler and more direct way to go about this; but at least this way I can mimic some historical process, as I see it. :oo:

As for the Chekaal and Old Dirmani SC files -- they'd mostly be for color, and to create cool-looking etymologies in the Vilani dictionaries. Although like I said, a working Old Dirmani walkback might also be a good way to create a nice pile of Ten Dollar personal names for high-ranking Vilani NPC's.
 
Two thoughts:

(1) Zhodani appears to have bizarre and sometimes unpronounceable strings of consonants. Might this be hmongb-like?

(2) What's missing from Vilani that prevents me from stamping it as 1.0?

Don't even worry about examples; the core documentation is incomplete and I need to complete it, and I'm in a bit over my head here. Suggestions are coveted.

Referring to http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/vilani/Vilani_Grammar.pdf

  • Are auxiliary verbs sufficiently described? (p21)
  • Are demonstrative pronouns too much a pain in the ass to bother with? (p32)
  • Are adjectives properly and sufficiently described? (p33, p25)
  • Is the section Semantics a big mess? There are sections here that I don't know what to do with. (p36+)
  • "Body Part Metaphors" is incomplete, isn't it? (p37)
  • Command Phraseology and Knowledge are UNFINISHED, aren't they? (p38-39, p46)
 
(1) Zhodani appears to have bizarre and sometimes unpronounceable strings of consonants. Might this be hmongb-like?

Hmong-Mien languages don't actually have consonant clusters at all. It may look that way because of the transcription conventions. Like using -b, -s, -v, -g etc. at the ends of words to indicate tone: they're not actually pronounced as consonants at all. Or even graphemes like {nplh}, that are actually single phonemes in the language as far as I can tell. It's just hard to write them in a simple (low-ASCII) Latin alphabet without getting all "exotic".

Zhodani has some aversion to vowels, but not as much as many, many Terran languages -- like the famous Georgian gvprckvni "you peel us", or the lesser-known but even ass-kicking-er Nuxalk sṃnṃnṃuuc(ts?) "mute".

(2) What's missing from Vilani that prevents me from stamping it as 1.0?

Phrased that way, the only reasonable answer is "nothing" :) It depends what you want to release it as, I guess. It's well ahead of the state of the art for any kind of RPG language supplement I've heard of, bar Tekumel. In the family of contemporary conlanging, though, I think it would be seen as kludgy, poorly tested, carelessly documented... etc.

Really my only "objections" are 100% personal preferences and not any kind of objective, conlang police criticism. I'd rather strip it back down to the foundations and start over, if I were serious about making something out of Vilani... but then that's how conlangers work, I think :)

Regarding your list of questions about the documentation:

  • 1) Aux verbs -- no, they're not sufficiently described, but I don't know that they were sufficiently thought out either, so it would be unfair to expect you to describe them :)
    2) Demonstrative pronouns – I don’t think they’re a pain in the ass at all as they stand, and it would be <i>extremely</i> exotic/alien/non-naturalistic to not have them!
    3) Adjectives are in better shape, I think; comparatively at least. I wouldn’t put more effort into them at this point.
    4) Semantics is a huge mess. But it’s not really a section. It still looks like the file of extremely rough notes and brainstorming ideas I’d sent around a few years ago; certainly never intended to be part of the finished product!
    5) Ditto.
    6) Ditto. Even more so! I wasn’t particularly thinking of how to put them into Vilani at the time, even – just jotting down “cool things” as they flitted across my tequila-soaked brain.
 
I'd rather strip it back down to the foundations and start over, if I were serious about making something out of Vilani... but then that's how conlangers work, I think :)

That way lies madness, unless there's a Traveller benefit.

I've got no problem stripping out & reworking the undeveloped bits, tones, the pronoun matrix, etc, but I think the core of it (verbs and their affixes, enclitics, cases, adjectives, noun morphology, forex) is basically fixed and set.

Hmm. Maybe that should be marked v1.0.
 
That way lies madness, unless there's a Traveller benefit.

I've got no problem stripping out & reworking the undeveloped bits, tones, the pronoun matrix, etc, but I think the core of it (verbs and their affixes, enclitics, cases, adjectives, noun morphology, forex) is basically fixed and set.

Hmm. Maybe that should be marked v1.0.

That's cool -- I really don't have the vim & vigor to be monkeying with Vilani to that extent, anyway. But I feel like I'm sort of missing the bigger picture here -- what's it being 'fixed and set' for? Is something going to be happening with it, official-like?
 
That's cool -- I really don't have the vim & vigor to be monkeying with Vilani to that extent, anyway. But I feel like I'm sort of missing the bigger picture here -- what's it being 'fixed and set' for? Is something going to be happening with it, official-like?

Right, I almost never had the time or vigor, and never had the knowledge to monkey with it.

And, the reason I've said the core is basically set is because Marc is already using it to produce Traveller material; for example, he's produced and distributed land grants, patents of nobility, and proclamations which use nearly grammatically correct Vilani, according to our document there.

That doesn't mean I can't change it. Almost nobody would notice, or care. But if it seems to work, then there's one reason not to break it.

Another reason is the last ten years. I've managed to shuffle your notes together and expand the lexicon, partly because you encouraged me, but mainly because there was nobody telling me I couldn't... i.e. interest in the subject wasn't hot enough to create the board of directors-effect of immobility. I could act as a free agent (or Ishimkarun if you prefer) and sand off the corners where I could.
 
Last edited:
No. Slavic languages do have such clusters, and while difficult for romance language speakers, are pronouncable.
 
That way lies madness, unless there's a Traveller benefit.

I've got no problem stripping out & reworking the undeveloped bits, tones, the pronoun matrix, etc, but I think the core of it (verbs and their affixes, enclitics, cases, adjectives, noun morphology, forex) is basically fixed and set.

Very belatedly :o -- just to clarify, I'm only talking about personal, private conlanging activities of my own, on the basis of old CT/MT/etc. canon. No way am I proposing anything official! Or even proposing that you change your version of Vilani!
 
I seem to recall that the last version of the tonality for Vilani had only three tonal "shapes" and pitch was sort of automatic, so didn't need to be marked. With the three shapes being "rising", "falling", and "level", they were fairly easy to mark even if you were limited to ISO-8859-1 - rising was an acute accent; falling was a grave accent, and level could be either no mark, or umlaut.

So, the section on Freelance Traveller where this sort of thing would appear, Kurishdam, could have been written as "Kurìshdàm", if I recall what the correct tone shapes for it were.
 
I'm looking for a Vilani phrase that would be translated into Anglic as 'Fireside Folktale'. Not necessarily a literal translation -- I imagine that the Vilani phrase might be longer and more descriptive. Here's the library data entry:

Fireside Folktale [Vilani: xxxxxxxxx]: Dramatic art form dating back to the earliest recorded history on Vland, a combination community theater and morality play, using stock characters and situations mixed with topical references to entertain and edify at village festivals.​

Of course, I could just use my handy-dandy Vilani word generator to make up a word, but if there's an actual Vilani language around, I'd prefer to be in compliance with that.

(What do I need it for? Nothing, really, but I'm claiming it as an inspiration (with Commedia dell'arte) for an 3rd Imperium-contemporary style of play. It's just a bit of chrome.)


Hans
 
If one doesn't exist, you should create it, and I'll use it.

We've got

Khigikhuma-noun-The Stage/ Theatre

Dakhaseri. Literally, Audience of Stars. There is an ancient Vilani story of meritorious souls being allowed to watch the events of the world.

Dushis Khurisi. A recurring theme of homelessness and wandering in Vilani Literature. Similar to Odysseus, but includes the family (and extended family/clan). Originally a mythic theme on Vland, and expanded in Vilani literature to justify Conquest and Empire.

Hmm, there's a thread somewhere here on COTI on a collection of Vilanic mythology... here we go. Mimaarunna (tradition; culture; 'to hand down'; also an ancient Vilani story to teach the value of tradition):

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=508&page=8

All these stories are not contained in any one book or edition but instead have been added to and subtracted from as the ages have progressed to accommodate the needs of the time.

[...]

Kurega suggested that Vilani literature be identified in broad categories, forming a kind of "open canon" for contributions.
 
Last edited:
So Robjet -- since Viani has always been a fav sci-fi conlang of mine ... any other updates

(since most conlangers have a RL instead of constantly tweaking thier toys ..)
 
So Robjet -- since Viani has always been a fav sci-fi conlang of mine ... any other updates

(since most conlangers have a RL instead of constantly tweaking thier toys ..)

You do know about the online Vilani resources, yes?

http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/vilani/

There's also a very small amount of text about Sylean:

http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/sylean.html

...and Darrian...

http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/darrian/Darrian_Lexicon.html

...and Oynprith, very very outdated and inferior...

http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/oynprith/oynprith.html

...and Yiiraba'rhi, which the Shriekers speak...

http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/shviree/shviree.html
 
Back
Top