Vehicle Design Guide Review

[AlegisDownport]

Another review just posted on the ‘Downport blog, this time it’s Moon Toad Publishing’s ‘Vehicle Design Guide’ that is under the spotlight:-

https://alegisdownport.wordpress.com/2019/10/23/vehicle-design-guide-review/

I hope you enjoy the review!

Cheers
Steve

 

[MichaelSTee]

It's a good review, I enjoyed it.
A few things that I think ought to be mentioned:
The Vehicle Design Guide (VDG) is based to some degree on the system written by Colin Dunn (mostly), and published in Mongoose's Supplement 5-6 Vehicle Handbook, in 2012. As I understand it, Colin was instrumental in getting Matt of Mongoose to release an SRD of the document.
And now that there are two separate design systems for CE (the VDG and the Vehicle Design System or VDS by Jason 'Flynn' Kemp), I'm wondering: How does the community rate these two systems against each other? What are your preferences, and why?

Personally, I prefer the VDG, as it abstracts the design more. I'm not a gearhead, so it is quicker for me to envision a vehicle using VDG.

 

[Independence Games]

Well, I can tell you that all of the Clement Sector vehicles from this point forward will use the VDG in lieu of creating our own vehicle book. I find it to be a better system for the same reasons that you suggest.

 

[AlegisDownport]

Thanks Michael and John for the useful pieces of information; I have updated the original blog post to incorporate these as I agree that they are useful points to make.

Thanks both!

Steve

 

[Proneutron]

If the same design system where it states: "For example, a 10-ton Armored Fighting Vehicle (AFV) with a total of 12 Armor would take (base of 90 hours, times 12, equals) 1080 hours, or 45 days, assuming round-the-clock construction."

I would say it may be too long of a construction time. An only partially reopened tank plant in Lima OH, was putting out about 11 M1 tanks in 30 days. Probably closer to Armor 14 and probably at least 10 tons. I would cut in half the construction time multiplier for armor in the system.

However, I find this entire Cepheus Engine to be a great rule set

YMMV

 

[whartung]

If the same design system where it states: "For example, a 10-ton Armored Fighting Vehicle (AFV) with a total of 12 Armor would take (base of 90 hours, times 12, equals) 1080 hours, or 45 days, assuming round-the-clock construction."

I would say it may be too long of a construction time. An only partially reopened tank plant in Lima OH, was putting out about 11 M1 tanks in 30 days. Probably closer to Armor 14 and probably at least 10 tons. I would cut in half the construction time multiplier for armor in the system.

These are different problems.

While I agree 45 days may seem long for an AFV, there's a difference between a vehicle taking 45 days, and a factory creating 11 per month. Each individual vehicle may STILL take 45 days, but the factory has enough space and equipment to have about 20 of them is various state of assembly to the point that, after ramp up, it can sustain 11 per month, even if they take 45 days each.

Consider those photos of aircraft assembly plants with a dozen planes all being assembled simultaneously.

 

[Proneutron]

These are different problems.

While I agree 45 days may seem long for an AFV, there's a difference between a vehicle taking 45 days, and a factory creating 11 per month. Each individual vehicle may STILL take 45 days, but the factory has enough space and equipment to have about 20 of them is various state of assembly to the point that, after ramp up, it can sustain 11 per month, even if they take 45 days each.

Consider those photos of aircraft assembly plants with a dozen planes all being assembled simultaneously.

I'm not considering the 11 vehicles. Only one. And that ONE takes far less time than in the rules. THAT was my only point.

 

[whartung]

I'm not considering the 11 vehicles. Only one. And that ONE takes far less time than in the rules. THAT was my only point.

Better living through anecdotes:

Production was ordered to start in August 1942. It began at a rate of 25 tanks per month and peaked in April 1944 at a rate of 104 per month. It took 300,000 man hours to build one Tiger, almost twice as much time as a Panther required.

uh...wow!

That seems like...a lot.

I think they must be including mining iron ore with sharpened sticks in that number.

 

[Timerover51]

Production was ordered to start in August 1942. It began at a rate of 25 tanks per month and peaked in April 1944 at a rate of 104 per month. It took 300,000 man hours to build one Tiger, almost twice as much time as a Panther required.

I would say that someone got those production hours badly mistaken, as it took an average of 600,000 man hours to build a WW2 Liberty ship, about 70 times larger in terms of weight than a Tiger. Do the math. At 300,000 hours per Tiger, figuring 2,000 production hours per man per year, it would take 150 men one year to build one Tiger. To build one a month would take 1800 men, and 104 a month would take 187,200 men. That simply does not compute. Germany did not have that large a work force in World War 2, as they were bringing Italians in from Italy (and treating them pretty badly), along with using Russian POWs for factory work. Based on British figures for production of POWs used in agricultural work, a POW was only 40% as efficient as the normal farm hand. German did not exactly feed the POWs well.

 

[Condottiere]

Also, sabotage; sometimes complicity, if you believe Schindler.

Economies of scale, dispersal of production lines, modularization, and final assembly.

Spare parts.

Takeover of pre existing captured industrial facilities, and the disenchanted workforce.

Mining of war materials may have happened in neutral countries, such as Sweden.

Most efficient bang for buck during the Great Patriotic War for the Panzer arm were sturm panzers and panzerjaegers, which may have cost about half to two thirds their panzer equivalents.

 

[coliver988]

and it may be including the time for all the parts that go into the parts (i.e., a tank requires x thousand screws, so perhaps they were extrapolating time to mine for that metal and make screws). Yes, far fetched and not likely, but if you count EVERYTHING that goes into making something, as the saying goes, we stand upon the shoulders of giants. In this case the giants being the infrastructure beneath the entire production.

But yes - that time seems way too long to build a tank. but hey - I work in software which is never done, so what can I say (software is either being worked on or no longer used basically)

 

[Proneutron]

I would say that someone got those production hours badly mistaken, as it took an average of 600,000 man hours to build a WW2 Liberty ship, about 70 times larger in terms of weight than a Tiger. ...

Right. So based on a production line time today (I also checked with my Bro who works in General Dynamics making AFVs and is a the best source available to me.) I'll chop ~40% off of that armor time to produce modifier.

 

[Condottiere]

The turret would tend to be an afterthought.