Vargr and Aslan stats reversed?

[Murdoc]

I know that its long-past time to expect anything to change officially, but this one has bugged me for a while, so I've changed it in my game. I just wanted to know what other people thought.

It seems to me that the physical stats of the Vargr and Aslan are backwards. Dogs, afaik, are "pound-for-pound" stronger than humans, so shouldn't they have a +1 to Str instead of -1? And as for the dex, I mean, dogs can't even move their legs sideways! I'm sure that Grandfather modified this when he uplifted them, but if anything I'd see it as a legacy disadvantage, rather than a disadvantage. OTOH, ever notice the amount of contortion that a cat can do? They can lie on their backs spread-eagle, practically telescope their spines longer, bend their backs around almost in half, etc. If anything I think that the Aslan should have the bonus to Dex rather than the Vargr. But of course I know that they are not Earth cats, so they might be built differently. So I suppose that enough background can explain this weirdness away, but it still seems weird to me. Does it to anyone else?

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Yes, but Vargr aren't dogs any more than humans are monkeys. Vargr are descended from Terran canines; but in the end they are about as closely related to Canis lupus as we are with Pan troglodytes. And humans are by far the physically weakest of the hominids -- I don't see any reason why this shouldn't apply to the Vargr's relationship with canidae as well.

I'd also wager that the hominid family is stronger than the canines, as a rule. A solitary chimpanzee, orangutang, or baboon would probably take a lone timberwolf to the cleaners, if somehow the two were forced into a one-on-one situation.

 

[rust]

Does it to anyone else?

Indeed, although not concerning the Vargr, because they have been geneti-
cally modified, which can explain all differences between them an other cani-
nes.

However, in my view a more cat like agility and dexterity would fit the Aslan
well, especially since they started their development as a species of solitary
arboreal pouncers - a type of animal that normally needs a very high agility
and dexterity to survive.
While they are usually described as "leonine" (a pack hunter type living on the
open plains), their genetic makeup and their attributes should probably be mo-
re similar to that of a leopard than that of a lion.

 

[veltyen]

I'd also wager that the hominid family is stronger than the canines, as a rule. A solitary chimpanzee, orangutang, or baboon would probably take a lone timberwolf to the cleaners, if somehow the two were forced into a one-on-one situation.

Real world anecdotal evidence suggests that baboons like the taste of rottweiler.

 

[Murdoc]

Yes, but Vargr aren't dogs any more than humans are monkeys. Vargr are descended from Terran canines; but in the end they are about as closely related to Canis lupus as we are with Pan troglodytes.

If Vargr were actually decended from canines, then I'd agree with you. However, they were genetically uplifted from them, meaning that they are technically only one step away from them, but in actuality any number of steps depending on what the geneticists wanted. I'm basing my assumptions on the appearance that the only changes made were the ones needed to make them function like sentient humanoids, such as their brain, vocal cords, opposable thumb, and walking upright. Their head and other body traits suggests that nothing else was changed. Now I know that their dex can't really be seen from the outside, but so we can assume that they engineered anything they like, but given all else as equal, I'd wager that the average vargr was slightly less dextrous than humans. Hence my IMTU adjustment.

especially since they started their development as a species of solitary arboreal pouncers - a type of animal that normally needs a very high agility and dexterity to survive.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Anyway, no biggie. Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

AM1 says:

The Aslan hand has three fingers opposing one medially-placed
thumb, and all have retractable claws. In addition, Aslan have a
single highly specialized claw under each thumb; this dewclaw folds
back jack-knife fashion into a horny covering in the base of the
thumb and palm. The presence of these claws and the general nature
of their body structure make the Aslan somewhat clumsy by comparison
with humans, but what they lack in dexterity they make
up for in strength and endurance.

AM3 says:

Physically, contemporary Vargr are not very impressive. The typical Vargr is about 1.6 meters in height and weighs approximately 60 kilograms.
...
Vargr hands are very similar in size and appearance to human hands, though with significant internal dissimilarities. They have approximately the same physical parameters as humans, and are able to use the same equipment without modification or additional instruction. The hands tend to be somewhat more slender and dextrous than human hands (on the average; there is still considerable variation among individual Vargr).

 

[Kawaresksenjajok]

"The presence of these claws and the general nature
of their body structure make the Aslan somewhat clumsy by comparison
with humans, but what they lack in dexterity they make
up for in strength and endurance."

I wonder what it is about Aslan body structure that make them 'clumsy' compared to other races. Is it their bulk, size, mass? This is about the best conclusion I've ever come up with myself. Surely, their hands alone can't account for their negative Dex. Isn't dexterity a reflection of co-ordination, reflexes and agility?

One of my other beefs with Vargr stats were their negative End. I'm sure it's some sort of game-balancing mechanic, but all explanations never quite made any sense to me.

 

[Shadowfax]

This post is a year old, but I just stumbled across it and thought I would mention that Aslan look a little top-heavy to me, because of their big shoulders. I could see them toppling over because of that. Another plausible explanation is just that they do not have enough grasping/manipulating digits - at least not as many as humans and Vargr, sot hat could explain it. I guess they are just always dropping stuff. Bet they are better at scratching things though.

It always seemed silly to me too that the Aslan should get a -1DX. I know they are not supposed to be like Terra's big cats, but everyone mroe or less thinks that when they see them. I did too and wondered why they weren't quicker and more agile than humans. Its just one of those things I guess.

 

[veltyen]

This post is a year old,

Welcome Time Traveller.

It always seemed silly to me too that the Aslan should get a -1DX. I know they are not supposed to be like Terra's big cats, but everyone mroe or less thinks that when they see them. I did too and wondered why they weren't quicker and more agile than humans. Its just one of those things I guess.

I always think of them moving like some of the heavier set hyenas. Fast, strong ... but kinda wonky, like all the limbs aren't quite correctly attached.

 

[aramis]

There is no rule prohibiting dredging up old threads...

I genuinely don't have a problem with the traditional stats.

 

[Lycanorukke]

I didn't have a problem with the original stats.

As is mentioned the vargr are engineered which means they could have whatever stats the ancients designed into them plus the additional evolution for 300,000 years when let run wild. I thought of the vanilla vargr as 'general purpose' servants - not to strong to be a problem if they cause trouble, dextrerous enough to used tools and equipment easily, etc.

The variety of sub-vargr (eg: the Urzaeng who are thick as brick but can punch an Aslans lights out, or the physically atrophied but big brained Kokasha), tends to support this idea somewhat. When the ancients wiped themselves out the 'general purpose' model was best suited to continue, while the 'specialised' models faded into the background.

As for the Aslan, I'm not so sure (I never took a shine ot them). But I put it down to' dex' being an abstract combination of physical abilities. While they may be great at balance, speed and agility - in a tech world a major factor of importance is what one does with their hands. And if your hands has a knife permanently strapped to them and a radial layout then precision work with ones hands is going to be hard - hence why it is a piddly -1 Dex instead of more.

One insteresting one I vaguely remember from biology years ago - is that the muscle layouts of chimps and humans isn't really that different. What differs is where the attachment points to the bones are - a chimps muscles are attached further down the bone from the joint giving far greater leverage but at the cost of reaction time. Humans are the reverse - the attachments are close to the joint giving quicker reactions but at the cost of power.

 

[Lycanorukke]

additional

It interested me enough to go and check to ensure I was remembering correctly...

Apart from the differing attachment points of the muscle, humans also have a mutant version of the MYH16 gene which seems to result in a differing muscle structure than chimps - ie: weaker and less muscle density.

But apparently there is also an upside to being the wimp - it has been speculated that all the energy/nutrients which used to power the large muscle mass can now be redirected to power something else - like a bigger brain.

Looking around I came across that a non-primate mammal's brain consume 4-5% of the bodies total energy intake, a non-human primate's brain uses 8-10%, while a humans guzzles at least 20-25%.

So maybe the ancients didn't have a choice and ran into the old rule of TANSTASFL. They wanted "smart servants" (or at least servants smarter than a dog) so they had to sacrifice strength for brains due to energy requirements. Would also explain the Urzaeng vargr who are strong but dumb.

 

[ThunderChilde]

I can't say that the relative racial adjustments have ever caused more than a casual level of intrest. It's a game, and that's what the designers decided worked. Nothing seemed out of line or unbalancing, so it never bothered me.
Doesn't seem broken, don't "fixit".

I used to play in a game that started life as Mega and evolved into what we the players called "JMUG" (Joe's Made Up Game) the rules were endlessly modified, characters adjusted etc. Kinda like real time, weekly adjusted, playtesting. Ran about 3 years or so, I bailed after 2, combination of exasperation and a new job put an end to my participation.

The original purpose was to try to resolve the tremendous amount of errata and then took on a life of it's own.

I am still a little gun shy of rules mods in an ongoing campaign, I try hard not to do it my self. Sole exception is if, for instance, a new supplement comes along with things I decide to introduce to the campaign.

 

[Straybow]

If Vargr were actually decended from canines, then I'd agree with you. However, they were genetically uplifted from them, meaning that they are technically only one step away from them, but in actuality any number of steps depending on what the geneticists wanted.

The term invoked is "neoteny." Domestication of animals (particularly carnivores) usually involves the extension of juvenile mental and social characteristics into adulthood.

The development of high intelligence (compared to animals) seems to require the extension of juvenile learning capacity into adulthood. To accomplish this, juvenile physical factors are also preserved into adulthood. Perhaps they are tied to some of the same genes.

In addition, our bodies last longer. Isaac Asimov pointed out decades ago that humans live about 4 billion heartbeats while most animals live less than 2 billion. We trade peak muscular metabolism for longevity.

Anecdotally, we humans are as strong as other primates in extreme cases. I know brothers who swear how one single-handedly lifted the front end of a '70s muscle car when the jackstand slipped and he thought the other was pinned (he was OK). Muscle cells normally operate asynchronously, and such stories may be cases of muscle cells operating synchronously for a brief moment.

 

[Peter Newman]

It's just a question of play balance. People expect Aslan to be stronger because they are bigger. If Aslan have a bonus to some stats they need a penalty to some other stats [1], or there is no reason to play a human. If they get a bonus to STR and END than one or more of the other four stats needs a penalty. Since SOC is not the same cross-species (and some aliens don't even have a SOC) than Aslan will need a penalty to their DEX, INT, or EDU. GDW picked DEX for the Aslan.

This seems fine to me.

[1] You might be able to balance it with other limits, such as the way K'Krees vastly greater size and STR is balanced by their crippling mental disadvantages (and INT penalty to most castes) but stat bonuses are probably best balanced by stat penalties.

 

[Shadowfax]

IMTU we decided to give the Aslan males +1-3 ST and normal DX, as an offset males get -2ED - afterall the females do all the accounting work. ; - )

 

[BlackBat242]

IMTU we decided to give the Aslan males +1-3 ST and normal DX, as an offset males get -2ED - afterall the females do all the accounting work. ; - )

The girls also do most of the technical work... navigator & engineer are female-dominated positions... therefore the Edu penalty would fit right in...
"I'm tired of this effeminate, useless book-study! When do I get to learn something important, like fighting or piloting?"

 

[coldwar]

Aslan

I am an aslan fan, so i'm abit on sided. But Aslans are built for pure speed not to silently creep up to a prey they would rather heard a prey looking for a weaker prey much like many pack hunters, and then use there speed to seperate and taunt the prey then kill it with pure strength. Or just chase a single prey if one there own and kill it with pure strength not aiming for any particular area aslong as they kill it.

Thats what would in my belief be what there ancestors would surely do and many would do during a hunt.