Using vehicular combat for starships

[Cymew]

I was looking back at the old thread I started about MT houserules.

I was looking forward to actually starting a Traveller campaign soon. Now it might be a while, but I thought I could get all my rules sorted out first.

So. How do you actually use the vehicle combat for starships?

The damage tables on p.74 looks easy enough, and filled with as much details as needed.

The weapon tables, specifically those on p.80 is the starship tables. Nothing special there.

Except that there was some discussion going on about dividing the damage by 10 and multiplying the hits on the ships by 10. Since the last is in the errata I can understand that, but the reasoning behind the first is more opaque.

What I'm most interested in hearing is how people would handle the movement and sensors in combat. Do you reuse some of the regular MT/HG rules or how do you do that?

 

[Cymew]

I was looking back at the old thread I started about MT houserules.

I was looking forward to actually starting a Traveller campaign soon. Now it might be a while, but I thought I could get all my rules sorted out first.

So. How do you actually use the vehicle combat for starships?

The damage tables on p.74 looks easy enough, and filled with as much details as needed.

The weapon tables, specifically those on p.80 is the starship tables. Nothing special there.

Except that there was some discussion going on about dividing the damage by 10 and multiplying the hits on the ships by 10. Since the last is in the errata I can understand that, but the reasoning behind the first is more opaque.

What I'm most interested in hearing is how people would handle the movement and sensors in combat. Do you reuse some of the regular MT/HG rules or how do you do that?

 

[Cymew]

I was looking back at the old thread I started about MT houserules.

I was looking forward to actually starting a Traveller campaign soon. Now it might be a while, but I thought I could get all my rules sorted out first.

So. How do you actually use the vehicle combat for starships?

The damage tables on p.74 looks easy enough, and filled with as much details as needed.

The weapon tables, specifically those on p.80 is the starship tables. Nothing special there.

Except that there was some discussion going on about dividing the damage by 10 and multiplying the hits on the ships by 10. Since the last is in the errata I can understand that, but the reasoning behind the first is more opaque.

What I'm most interested in hearing is how people would handle the movement and sensors in combat. Do you reuse some of the regular MT/HG rules or how do you do that?

 

[mike wightman]

I'm a total convert to using the T20 crew position tasks during combat, which can include using sensors the MT way.
In fact you can use MT rules and tasks for all of the crew position tasks in T20.

Movement in MT is abstracted to using squares or hexes, and either closing distance, holding position, or trying to run away from your opponent.
Personally I just abstract this to lines on a piece of paper, although I have considered using concentric circles instead.
Another option would be to graft on a full vector movement system - LBB2 and/or Mayday are good resources for that.

As far as damage goes, increasing the hits of ship components by a factor of ten helps cope with the massive damage that ship weapons dish out using the vehicle scale, but if you also divide the ship weapon vehicle scale damage by ten then combat will last longer than "one laser hit vaporises one drive" on the target ship.

 

[mike wightman]

I'm a total convert to using the T20 crew position tasks during combat, which can include using sensors the MT way.
In fact you can use MT rules and tasks for all of the crew position tasks in T20.

Movement in MT is abstracted to using squares or hexes, and either closing distance, holding position, or trying to run away from your opponent.
Personally I just abstract this to lines on a piece of paper, although I have considered using concentric circles instead.
Another option would be to graft on a full vector movement system - LBB2 and/or Mayday are good resources for that.

As far as damage goes, increasing the hits of ship components by a factor of ten helps cope with the massive damage that ship weapons dish out using the vehicle scale, but if you also divide the ship weapon vehicle scale damage by ten then combat will last longer than "one laser hit vaporises one drive" on the target ship.

 

[mike wightman]

I'm a total convert to using the T20 crew position tasks during combat, which can include using sensors the MT way.
In fact you can use MT rules and tasks for all of the crew position tasks in T20.

Movement in MT is abstracted to using squares or hexes, and either closing distance, holding position, or trying to run away from your opponent.
Personally I just abstract this to lines on a piece of paper, although I have considered using concentric circles instead.
Another option would be to graft on a full vector movement system - LBB2 and/or Mayday are good resources for that.

As far as damage goes, increasing the hits of ship components by a factor of ten helps cope with the massive damage that ship weapons dish out using the vehicle scale, but if you also divide the ship weapon vehicle scale damage by ten then combat will last longer than "one laser hit vaporises one drive" on the target ship.

 

[Cymew]

Starship Weapons:
-----------------

A Beam Laser-8 deals 500 (dice) hits according to the table at p.80 in my rules. While that might be a bit excessive, dealing in average 1750 hits, I'm not sure the other end of the scale is better.

A Far Trader, a typical player ship, takes 180 hull hits according to the Imperial Encyclopedia. If that's multiplied by 10 and the damage divided by ten, then a Far Trader will be able to stand 10 hits or something.

Isn't that a bit much on the other hand?

How many hits can a Far Trader take with the MT/HG system?

 

[Cymew]

Starship Weapons:
-----------------

A Beam Laser-8 deals 500 (dice) hits according to the table at p.80 in my rules. While that might be a bit excessive, dealing in average 1750 hits, I'm not sure the other end of the scale is better.

A Far Trader, a typical player ship, takes 180 hull hits according to the Imperial Encyclopedia. If that's multiplied by 10 and the damage divided by ten, then a Far Trader will be able to stand 10 hits or something.

Isn't that a bit much on the other hand?

How many hits can a Far Trader take with the MT/HG system?

 

[Cymew]

Starship Weapons:
-----------------

A Beam Laser-8 deals 500 (dice) hits according to the table at p.80 in my rules. While that might be a bit excessive, dealing in average 1750 hits, I'm not sure the other end of the scale is better.

A Far Trader, a typical player ship, takes 180 hull hits according to the Imperial Encyclopedia. If that's multiplied by 10 and the damage divided by ten, then a Far Trader will be able to stand 10 hits or something.

Isn't that a bit much on the other hand?

How many hits can a Far Trader take with the MT/HG system?

 

[mike wightman]

It's not dice of hits, it is 500 points of damage. Although on an exceptional success it could be much higher - 1000, or 2000, although it will be halved for penetration so 250, 500, or 1000 are the likely amounts of damage.
That's enough to kill a free trader in a few good hits, eighteen at the most. And each hit that damages a component will completely destroy it.

In LBB2 combat a far trader could take quite a few single laser hits.
It would take 2 hits to disable each drive - 6
6 hits to destroy the entire cargo hold - 12
6 fuel hits - 18
2 hits to knock out both turrets - 20
up to 11 computer hits - 31
plus as many hull hits as you like.

Using the HG/MT tables 2 maneuver drive hits - 2
5 fuel hits - 7
4-6 weapon hits depending on turret configuration - 13
Then it's dead in space, although it can still jump.

Hmm, perhaps dividing the damage by 10 is too much.
Halving it may be a better way to do it.

 

[mike wightman]

It's not dice of hits, it is 500 points of damage. Although on an exceptional success it could be much higher - 1000, or 2000, although it will be halved for penetration so 250, 500, or 1000 are the likely amounts of damage.
That's enough to kill a free trader in a few good hits, eighteen at the most. And each hit that damages a component will completely destroy it.

In LBB2 combat a far trader could take quite a few single laser hits.
It would take 2 hits to disable each drive - 6
6 hits to destroy the entire cargo hold - 12
6 fuel hits - 18
2 hits to knock out both turrets - 20
up to 11 computer hits - 31
plus as many hull hits as you like.

Using the HG/MT tables 2 maneuver drive hits - 2
5 fuel hits - 7
4-6 weapon hits depending on turret configuration - 13
Then it's dead in space, although it can still jump.

Hmm, perhaps dividing the damage by 10 is too much.
Halving it may be a better way to do it.

 

[mike wightman]

It's not dice of hits, it is 500 points of damage. Although on an exceptional success it could be much higher - 1000, or 2000, although it will be halved for penetration so 250, 500, or 1000 are the likely amounts of damage.
That's enough to kill a free trader in a few good hits, eighteen at the most. And each hit that damages a component will completely destroy it.

In LBB2 combat a far trader could take quite a few single laser hits.
It would take 2 hits to disable each drive - 6
6 hits to destroy the entire cargo hold - 12
6 fuel hits - 18
2 hits to knock out both turrets - 20
up to 11 computer hits - 31
plus as many hull hits as you like.

Using the HG/MT tables 2 maneuver drive hits - 2
5 fuel hits - 7
4-6 weapon hits depending on turret configuration - 13
Then it's dead in space, although it can still jump.

Hmm, perhaps dividing the damage by 10 is too much.
Halving it may be a better way to do it.

 

[Cymew]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I'm a total convert to using the T20 crew position tasks during combat, which can include using sensors the MT way.
In fact you can use MT rules and tasks for all of the crew position tasks in T20.

I'll have to check it out. The Trade rules of T20 is very good, so why not this as well.

Movement in MT is abstracted to using squares or hexes, and either closing distance, holding position, or trying to run away from your opponent.
Personally I just abstract this to lines on a piece of paper, althoogh I have considered using concentric circles instead.
Another option would be to graft on a full vector movement system - LBB2 and/or Mayday are good resources for that.

Nah, LBB2 with vectors have always felt to wargamy for a RPG, methinks.

I'll try too keep abstract then. I do like the feel of 2300AD space combat, but there's always worth considering how much wargame and how much RPG you're playing. I'll be doing much more RPG than wargame.

 

[Cymew]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I'm a total convert to using the T20 crew position tasks during combat, which can include using sensors the MT way.
In fact you can use MT rules and tasks for all of the crew position tasks in T20.

I'll have to check it out. The Trade rules of T20 is very good, so why not this as well.

Movement in MT is abstracted to using squares or hexes, and either closing distance, holding position, or trying to run away from your opponent.
Personally I just abstract this to lines on a piece of paper, althoogh I have considered using concentric circles instead.
Another option would be to graft on a full vector movement system - LBB2 and/or Mayday are good resources for that.

Nah, LBB2 with vectors have always felt to wargamy for a RPG, methinks.

I'll try too keep abstract then. I do like the feel of 2300AD space combat, but there's always worth considering how much wargame and how much RPG you're playing. I'll be doing much more RPG than wargame.

 

[Cymew]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I'm a total convert to using the T20 crew position tasks during combat, which can include using sensors the MT way.
In fact you can use MT rules and tasks for all of the crew position tasks in T20.

I'll have to check it out. The Trade rules of T20 is very good, so why not this as well.

Movement in MT is abstracted to using squares or hexes, and either closing distance, holding position, or trying to run away from your opponent.
Personally I just abstract this to lines on a piece of paper, althoogh I have considered using concentric circles instead.
Another option would be to graft on a full vector movement system - LBB2 and/or Mayday are good resources for that.

Nah, LBB2 with vectors have always felt to wargamy for a RPG, methinks.

I'll try too keep abstract then. I do like the feel of 2300AD space combat, but there's always worth considering how much wargame and how much RPG you're playing. I'll be doing much more RPG than wargame.

 

[Cymew]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It's not dice of hits, it is 500 points of damage. Although on an exceptional success it could be much higher - 1000, or 2000, although it will be halved for penetration so 250, 500, or 1000 are the likely amounts of damage.
That's enough to kill a free trader in a few good hits, eighteen at the most. And each hit that damages a component will completely destroy it.

OK, it's not dice. My bad.

18 hits if you're extremely lucky doesn't sound like that bad. LBB2 version with 30+ hits sounds like way to easy! These are *big* guns we're talking about after all.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

Using the HG/MT tables 2 maneuver drive hits - 2
5 fuel hits - 7
4-6 weapon hits depending on turret configuration - 13
Then it's dead in space, although it can still jump.

Hmm, perhaps dividing the damage by 10 is too much.
Halving it may be a better way to do it.

If I understood your calculations correct (I have never fully understood MT ship combat and bothered to fix all the errors from the errata) the MT system with the damage divided by 10 gives us 13 hits? That's not so far from 18.

 

[Cymew]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It's not dice of hits, it is 500 points of damage. Although on an exceptional success it could be much higher - 1000, or 2000, although it will be halved for penetration so 250, 500, or 1000 are the likely amounts of damage.
That's enough to kill a free trader in a few good hits, eighteen at the most. And each hit that damages a component will completely destroy it.

OK, it's not dice. My bad.

18 hits if you're extremely lucky doesn't sound like that bad. LBB2 version with 30+ hits sounds like way to easy! These are *big* guns we're talking about after all.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

Using the HG/MT tables 2 maneuver drive hits - 2
5 fuel hits - 7
4-6 weapon hits depending on turret configuration - 13
Then it's dead in space, although it can still jump.

Hmm, perhaps dividing the damage by 10 is too much.
Halving it may be a better way to do it.

If I understood your calculations correct (I have never fully understood MT ship combat and bothered to fix all the errors from the errata) the MT system with the damage divided by 10 gives us 13 hits? That's not so far from 18.

 

[Cymew]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It's not dice of hits, it is 500 points of damage. Although on an exceptional success it could be much higher - 1000, or 2000, although it will be halved for penetration so 250, 500, or 1000 are the likely amounts of damage.
That's enough to kill a free trader in a few good hits, eighteen at the most. And each hit that damages a component will completely destroy it.

OK, it's not dice. My bad.

18 hits if you're extremely lucky doesn't sound like that bad. LBB2 version with 30+ hits sounds like way to easy! These are *big* guns we're talking about after all.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

Using the HG/MT tables 2 maneuver drive hits - 2
5 fuel hits - 7
4-6 weapon hits depending on turret configuration - 13
Then it's dead in space, although it can still jump.

Hmm, perhaps dividing the damage by 10 is too much.
Halving it may be a better way to do it.

If I understood your calculations correct (I have never fully understood MT ship combat and bothered to fix all the errors from the errata) the MT system with the damage divided by 10 gives us 13 hits? That's not so far from 18.

 

[mike wightman]

If you are really lucky with your rolls than it will be five hits to kill the free trader

My players aren't wargamers, so I don't bother with vector movement at all - I now use an adaptation of the Starter Traveller range band system, which is like a simplified MT movement box/hex system.
A sheet of lined paper is all you need to track relative position from turn to turn, the players just decide if they are trying to close, maintain distance, or run, and how much of their maneuver capability they will sacrifice for evasion DMs.

 

[mike wightman]

If you are really lucky with your rolls than it will be five hits to kill the free trader

My players aren't wargamers, so I don't bother with vector movement at all - I now use an adaptation of the Starter Traveller range band system, which is like a simplified MT movement box/hex system.
A sheet of lined paper is all you need to track relative position from turn to turn, the players just decide if they are trying to close, maintain distance, or run, and how much of their maneuver capability they will sacrifice for evasion DMs.