Using d20 Modern for T20: Powered by Spycraft

[tjoneslo]

In my search for evermore D20 rules to cover or suggest solutions for situations which arise in Traveller, I've been buying a number of D20 games and supplements. Stuff I wouldn't usually buy. I'd managed to get my hands on the original Spycraft found some very interesting rules and ideas.

Then I got a copy of the Spycraft 2.0 rules.

I'm seriously considering completely dropping the use of the D20 modern rules in favor of using the Spycraft ones. The classes make much more sense. The skills have been changed and incorporate a number of useful checks. There is a Dramatic Conflict system which allows resolving non-combat conflicts with as much drama and dice rolling as combat situations. There's a organization design system. Gadget building rules. An action point system which is clearly described on how to use it, and rules to encourge using it. No attacks of opportunity. A really flexable unarmed combat system. Lots of guns.

Things I'd have to do would be: write up the alien races in their origin system (very easy). Build a number of Traveller specific classes to replace the Spycraft ones, which I was doing anyway. Write up a number of oganizations. Make the combat system a little gritter. Do a starship design and combat system which integrates with the main rules. Add the list of weapons and other gear from the consolidated equipment list.

This is unlike D20 Modern, being a mix-mash of rules, which required adding a huge number of new rules and rule changes. Perhaps if I spend more time with my new shiny toy I'll become less infatuated.

In other news: Alderac has sold Spycraft to Crafty Games. Who is still trying to get their website up. Bur are supposed to be releasing Farthest Star, spycraft based space opera setting sometime real soon now ("Late Spring 2006"). I'll be all over it when it arrives.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Actually, the classes in d20 Trinity make more sense as "classes". There's Academic (same as T20), Entertainer, Entrepreneur, Investigator, Scoundrel, and Warrior. Then the Prestige Classes of Diplomat, Explorer, Mercenary, Scientist, Space Jockey, Technologist, and Troubleshooter. SpyCraft is really nice for an espionage game, but the classes reminded me too much of the A-Team. The system is awesome, tho! And just flipping through 2.0, I want to get it...

 

[tjoneslo]

Darn it, is there another book I need to add to my list of things to get...

You are correct, the Spycraft system is designed to emulate the James Bond style action, Anime, Hong Kong action, and general high end action films and books. In lurking on the AEG forums for a short while, I've seen the designers acknowledge that a Spycraft character can kick the ass of a D20 modern character twice or more his level.

So a general (and severe) power down of the entire system would be required. Fortuantly the Spycraft system is very modular, and the book contains several hints on the designer's throughts on the design. So downpowering the system looks easier than adding organization to the D20 Modern one.

 

[Reginald]

Isn't the thread title misleading?

Personally, I'm already a convert of class by attribute rather than by archetype/profession. So, I'm sticking with d20 Modern to the end.

 

[tjoneslo]

Well maybe. Spycraft 2.0 is entirely OGL. So if I wanted to steal^w use the entire book by porting it to D20 modern I could as well. It's just that I like so many of the rules, the result may feel like Spycraft with some D20 modern added rather than the other way around.

 

[Kirth]

Spycraft, hmm...
I hear that name pop-up every once in awhile and I don't really hear anything Earth-shatteringly good about it.
I've given up on d20 Modern as a lost cause. No game ever seemed to really have staying power as a player. As a GM, I get all excited about the possiblities, then I slowly lose interest. I've figured it out now, which is why I haven't really been up on the goings on in tjoneslo's other threads, the rules are so bland in comparison to other games including generic ones like GURPS.
Right now, I'm having a kick butt time playing Mutants and Masterminds.
So, maybe I'll look into this Spycraft stuff.
Is there anything else I should know about it?

 

[Flynn]

You might consider Grim Tales, as well, tjoneslo.

There's even a GT SRD, though it appears to be down for the moment.

The combat section, which isn't in the SRD sadly, makes for a very pulpy and cool game.

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Kirth:
Spycraft, hmm...
I hear that name pop-up every once in awhile and I don't really hear anything Earth-shatteringly good about it.
I've given up on d20 Modern as a lost cause. No game ever seemed to really have staying power as a player.
Is there anything else I should know about it?

I suspect your problem with D20 (and some of mine as well) is the almost exclusive focus on combat. For me, this exclusive focus on "more gunz!" get tired quickly.

This is one reason I like Spycraft: It has support for more than just "more gunz!". It's the reason I don't like Grim Tales as much as I might. I've seen the GT SRD online. I think I need to spend more time with it.

 

[Kirth]

Yeah, the more guns can get tired in the wrong campaign. There's also the need to start out with at least a level 5 character in order to have any attempt at giving the character the sort of versatility to be any fun. Then after a couple of good sessions the advanced classes start to look like a good avenue. Of course, I've also looked at d20 Modern's advanced classes to be similar to DnD base classes.
I've been doing a little research and I'm really thinking of pulling the trigger to get Spycraft from Amazon. At $25.17 it is looking like a real bargain.

 

[archhealer]

Hmm... I've been thinking a while now of starting a lev. 1-5 campaign in T20... Letting characters attend university if they wish, and maybe one term, but giving them a few goodies not normally available in chargen if they don't to encourage them. Letting them start as naive, uneducated, kids lacking utterly in skills... Letting them get kicked around, taken advantage of, and beat up a few times and see how they turn out.

 

[Kirth]

I've done it. I went ahead and ordered Spycraft 2.0 from Amazon. I used the online shop because nobody local had it and I can get it by the middle of the week.

 

[tjoneslo]

Please let me (and all of us) know what you think.

 

[Kirth]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
Please let me (and all of us) know what you think.

Sounds like a plan. I also ordered the Babylon 5 2nd Ed. because I've been meaning to get that just because I'm such a B5 fan. I'll let you know about that one as well.

 

[mw_shipping]

I know I have enjoyed the "On the Ground" and "Against Gravity" books. I am also curious as to how B5 is (another big fan of show). I am thinking of using a PsiCorp like force within my T20 game.

Stephen

 

[Kirth]

I'm finished my first walk through of both books. Spycraft 2.0 has too much to digest in one read through so later today I'm going to get some friends to help with making up some off the cuff characters and run a few encounters to get a better understanding of it.
As far as Babylon 5 goes, I was impressed in its Travelleresque feel. There aren't that many skills in the B5 book which disappointed me a bit. However, the personal combat takes a different tact from T20 in that it uses hit points, but still manages to be at least as lethal. I know the space combat rules have been revamped from the 1st Ed. We'll probably stat up some encounters on this as well just to see how close my first impressions are on this one.
Talk to you folks later.

 

[Kirth]

OK. Using Spycraft for the T20 main book instead of the PHB or d20M...
First off, Spycraft 2.0 is a a core rulebook plus a complete gear book for everything up to 2006. And I do mean complete
Now, the character attributes are different in that Spycraft uses a point-buy approach. You get an 8 in all of your attributes and 36 points to spend on improving them, you can get extra points for some attributes by selling back to lower other scores. So in T20, you'll need to set Education and Social Standing to 8 each and give the player's 12 more points as it works out to 6 points per attribute on average.
Speeds for races wouldn't change as Spycraft uses 30 feet for a standard half action move. That translates pretty much one-to-one to the PHB. T20 uses a base of 9 meters which is (duh) 30 feet converted to the metric system.
Before you get to classes, Spycraft has an origin section, this has a talent and a specialty. If you don't want to use prior history, this section along with subplots can be as much fun to use in play as Prior History is a fun minigame.
The classes are actually quite different. On an abstract level, T20 classes mesh nicely to fill certain Traveller-specific roles. However, how they are handled in terms of the game system are different. The Spycraft classes are much more powerful, multi-classing doesn't require a plausible reason for the change, there are no multiclass restrictions, at career level (Overall character level) 5 a player can takeup an expert class, there are no initial requirements for any core class, wealth is handled quite differently than standard starting funds, and there are the Action Dice.
Spycraft's skills are quite in depth compared to just about any other d20 game. The list appears much shorter than T20's on the surface, but there are certain "focus" skills that are just like T20 cascade skills. Then comes the dizzying array of skill references, skill synergies, and skill check breakdowns that one skill can replace several skills in other d20 games, but each subset has certain requirements for making certain roles, that it is like having varying degrees of ability in multiple skills (e.g. Acrobatics is based around strength and dexterity like a jump check that uses strength as the attribute base and tumble check that uses dexterity as the attribute base).
Feats are still feats, but have a more clearly defined hierarchy called feat trees. In most d20 games including T20, you have things like Zero-G/Low Grav Adaptation and Improved Zero-G/Low Grav Adaptation. In spycraft feats generally have different names, they are grouped such as Ranged Combat Feats, Chase Feats, and so on. The progression from a basic feat to a master feat have new flowcharts. It shouldn't be two hard to figure out which Feat Tree a T20 feat should end up. Like Zero-G combat you could end up with two versions, unarmed and melee, and place them in the appropriate trees. I like the Spycraft structure and who can resist a feat titled: "This... is my BOOMSTICK!" You guessed it, shotgun proficiency.
There are no rules for creating your own gear in Spycraft so have your T20 book on hand for your standard designs and starships, plus any far future man portable laser weapons. What Spycraft has is basically one of the most complete gear books shoved into one chapter and with the small print they cover every piece of armament known to man today. Yes, even the Smith and Wesson 500 Magnum.
You definitely need your Psionics from T20 if you want them in your game, there are no cheesy FX rules in Spycraft, unlike the much weaker d20Modern.
Spycraft has ditched Attacks of Opportunity in favor of using initiative, there is an encounter distance set including a base encounter distance table.
I haven't done anything yet with vehicle combat, but it goes without saying that the Traveller's Handbook is needed for anything soing with spacecraft and the actual setting.
All-in-all, it depends on personal taste if you want to replace the PHB with Spycraft 2.0 or not. Spycraft is very cinematic, but is so detailed that it can do just about anything and everything.

 

[Kirth]

OK, Babylon 5 as the replacement for the PHB is much more straightforward than Spycraft. In fact, other than converting hit points to lifeblood/stamina, the changes are remarkably few.
The space combat system feels a bit different, but one is emulating B5 and the other is emulating Traveller.
Really, that's a big chunks of the differences. There are no core class for Wanderers in B5, which I found strange, but the Traveller class should fit the bill nicely. The two different approaches to hit points and their impact on damage that both lead back to making combat lethalin both games gives the gaming group a choice for what fits them best.
B5 is specific to the B5 universe and the same is true of The Traveller's Handbook and the Traveller universe. However, they kind of meet at a crossroads in that neither is a radical departure from baseline d20 and their differences can actually enhance the other.
There isn't much more to say. If you have T20, then I think you'd enjoy B5 and vice versa.
Of course, if you want to take your space combat in the direction of Babylon 5 Second Edition, your going to have to wait for starship construction rules.

 

[tjoneslo]

Spycraft Feat Trees: I saw this in Spycraft version 1 and immedialty adopted it for the T20M rules. It's a neat organization idea that works well.

There is a gear creation system. You need to study the Gear chapter carefully, as it is really badly organized. There is a lot of really interesting rules there, just jumbled together.

Check the Crafty-Games forumns, as someone has already created an entire set of Psionic rules, with feats and classes. But you are correct, you will otherwise have to import the rules from T20.

Were I to use the Powered by Spycraft rules, I'd absolutly down power it by several steps. Spycraft PCs verge on superhero strength.

There are things I don't like about Spycraft.

The Gear chapter is a complete mess. It took several readings to understand how their Gear system works. Its supposed to balance the threat level of the mission with the strenght of the organization which supplies the PCs. But you know the first time the GC has the Agency screw up their intelligence, the PCs will buy all their own gear.
In theory the second printing cleaned this up some. But all the statistics for each peice of gear is spread across two to four tables, which are spread across a dozen or more pages.

I also disklike their handing of NPCs. There are two kinds "Standard" and "Special". The Standard NPCs use an abbreivated set of statistics, a damage save instead of hit point. You can vary the statistics based upon the mission "Threat Level", Spycraft's replacement for Challenge rating. This is a neat system, but I don't like having special treatment for NPCs.

The continual use of Roman Numerals drives me nuts. I'm slighly dislexic and have a really hard time telling the difference between IV and VI, VII and VIII. Any system I use won't have roman numerals. They should be banned.

Things I will be stealing:
The feat orgaization. As above.

The dramatic conflict system. Resolve non-combat conflicts with a sequence of opposed skill checks, with a set of feats and special moves specific to the conflict.

The organization rules. They have a good way of abstracting what an organization can do, and integrated with the gear system to show what the members of the organization have access to.

 

[Kirth]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
Spycraft Feat Trees: I saw this in Spycraft version 1 and immedialty adopted it for the T20M rules. It's a neat organization idea that works well.

Yes that section is truly inspired.

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
Check the Crafty-Games forumns, as someone has already created an entire set of Psionic rules, with feats and classes. But you are correct, you will otherwise have to import the rules from T20.

I'll check that out. I did find a thread on the AEG boards for using Spycraft for doing Star Wars. I don't know if that thread will be recreated over on the Crafy boards.

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
The Gear chapter is a complete mess. It took several readings to understand how their Gear system works. Its supposed to balance the threat level of the mission with the strenght of the organization which supplies the PCs. But you know the first time the GC has the Agency screw up their intelligence, the PCs will buy all their own gear.
In theory the second printing cleaned this up some. But all the statistics for each peice of gear is spread across two to four tables, which are spread across a dozen or more pages.

The second printing does appear pretty organized with the glaring exception of contagions or expanations about the Complexity stat, which I guess has to do with trying to figure out a cure for it. I am going through gear creation today so I'll find out if it can be modded for building starships.

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
I also disklike their handing of NPCs. There are two kinds "Standard" and "Special". The Standard NPCs use an abbreivated set of statistics, a damage save instead of hit point. You can vary the statistics based upon the mission "Threat Level", Spycraft's replacement for Challenge rating. This is a neat system, but I don't like having special treatment for NPCs.

Actually I like those rules and options. The standard, called Minions in the book, are like the mooks of the world. A lot of people complain about special mook rules, but having them as an NPC type makes them more integrated into the rules than feeling tacked on. You don't have to make your NPC's with the abbreviated stat blocks. It make NPC's quicker and easier to make, but if you want a fully statted out villan, then you can build him up the old fashioned way. I just like the idea of having choices.

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
The continual use of Roman Numerals drives me nuts. I'm slighly dislexic and have a really hard time telling the difference between IV and VI, VII and VIII. Any system I use won't have roman numerals. They should be banned.

Your not the first person I've heard say that about Roman numerals.

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
Things I will be stealing:
The feat orgaization. As above.

The dramatic conflict system. Resolve non-combat conflicts with a sequence of opposed skill checks, with a set of feats and special moves specific to the conflict.

The organization rules. They have a good way of abstracting what an organization can do, and integrated with the gear system to show what the members of the organization have access to.

Yes, indeed. Those are three of many things that have really impressed me about Spycraft. I believe it kicks d20 Modern's butt and eats its lunch.

 

[Kirth]

Oops, the Minions are a subset of standards.

I found the Complexity part. It is basically the difficulty to create the object in question such as a contagion.

The creation of gear looks like you need to come up with a rules addition for starships so it is good we have them in the Traveller's Handbook.