Used Ships
- Thread starter MCEvans
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hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
In T20 the prices for used ships was typically 90% of the original minus 10% per 10 years of age. Financing was the same as for a used ship.
Just be sure to check the ShipFax, there have been a lot of flooded ships on the market since that big hurricane hit the starport...
Just be sure to check the ShipFax, there have been a lot of flooded ships on the market since that big hurricane hit the starport...
Rigel Stardin
SOC-13
The Blake 7 Scenario:
Your party is asked to board a derlict ship which is inhabited by nasty alien. After defeating the nasty ET, your party runs off with the ship....
Your party is asked to board a derlict ship which is inhabited by nasty alien. After defeating the nasty ET, your party runs off with the ship....
There is more to a used ship than a cheaper price, a couple dents, and maybe a shady air ventilation system. There may be decreased efficiency in the jump grid, the electrical system, the computer, the plumbing...
The computer in particular may be clotted up with 20 years of crap. First there's the physical dust, mouse hair, grease, fried synapses, etc. Then there's the trojans, viruses, worms, old games, things saved in the wrong folders, hidden ⌧ stash, all kinds of things.
The computer in particular may be clotted up with 20 years of crap. First there's the physical dust, mouse hair, grease, fried synapses, etc. Then there's the trojans, viruses, worms, old games, things saved in the wrong folders, hidden ⌧ stash, all kinds of things.
and that's just the air lock!
Prices are just the first thing I was looking for but also the where.
Challenge brings up Prize Courts/Auctions
But are there 'used ship lots', navy/scout surplus sales (if I remember thats how Oberlindies picked up his AHL) what about corporate surplus?
Are prices higher/lower most ships should be in better condition this way.
Rigel Stardin
SOC-13
And the used Starship salesman says. "It only has 2080 Jumps on the drive and 349,440 hours of use on the frame, it's a steal at 160 MCR..."
You DO realize that you have an 80 year old jump engine in a 40 year old ship. So 160 MCr is a steal to the Navy or Scouts so they can salvage old engines to put into 'new' ships THAT would save time and money building fleets.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
I would add in that like a used car or airplane how it was used makes a difference too. Using cars for example: You have two that are identical models. Both are say, 10 years old. One has about 120,000 miles on it and was taken care of pretty good. The other was a taxi cab. The odometer reads 124,000 miles......
Guess which will cost more to buy.....
So, if your players get something used and abused... a beater in the venacular.... and they have some mechanical skills they could start making repairs. Over time they could fix it up some, maybe resell it at a profit and, then upgrade that way.
Guess which will cost more to buy.....
So, if your players get something used and abused... a beater in the venacular.... and they have some mechanical skills they could start making repairs. Over time they could fix it up some, maybe resell it at a profit and, then upgrade that way.
Point taken about price.mega:
Now WHERE to find these diamonds in the rough or lumps of coal.
Would a 'D' starport have a market or just A & B and with luck a C?
If I was looking for surplus Navel base or a Depot, Scout base or a Way Station?
Id say on any A, B or C, BUT only if the world has a pop of 7+, as the higher the local pop, the easier it will be to sell these hea.....beautys.
Edit: and surplus military if a world meeting the starport and population requirements also has a base of the appropriate type.
~Rich
Would a corporation sell their used/surplus ships thru a general lot or thru their offices?
Would government surplus be more reasonably priced and usually in better shape?
Would there be just one lot or many? 1 for a C, 4 for and A and if a higher pop and even more?
Hunter & Cryton thanks, so far.
Would government surplus be more reasonably priced and usually in better shape?
Would there be just one lot or many? 1 for a C, 4 for and A and if a higher pop and even more?
Hunter & Cryton thanks, so far.
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
There might be lots, but my bet is that most are handled by brokers. Banks will want to sell ships that have been repossessed, corporations and governments selling off obsolete ships, etc. Auctions might also be held at regular or irregular intervals.
A ship broker could probably be easily located on a well populated world with a Class A or B port, though the ships themselves may be located elsewhere and the PCs would have to travel to inspect them.
A ship broker could probably be easily located on a well populated world with a Class A or B port, though the ships themselves may be located elsewhere and the PCs would have to travel to inspect them.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Point taken about price.
Now WHERE to find these diamonds in the rough or lumps of coal.
Would a 'D' starport have a market or just A & B and with luck a C?
If I was looking for surplus Navel base or a Depot, Scout base or a Way Station?
Somewhere like this:
http://www.wsmauctioneers.com/
If you go to these auctions (I do occasionally) you pay a fee up front, ernest money if you will, to bid. Here is $200. All the bigger companies are dumping their used equipment at these. Some is in good shape other times the stuff is totally worn out. You pay your bid for a win plus a percentage to the auction house. The seller pays a percentage of the sale to the auction house too.
You may also find repoed traders' ships in local lots on frontier worlds where the bank foreclosed on ships but didn't deem them worthwhile to fly back home, so they sold them to Cheap Elnek's.
That leads to a new question: If the bank repos a ship and find it all f'ed up by the crew, can it sue them?
That leads to a new question: If the bank repos a ship and find it all f'ed up by the crew, can it sue them?
Sure.
Would they? As a business, depends on whether there is any fiscal point (i.e. any chance to collect, much less pay for legal expenses).
More likely, they would sell the 'debt' to someone else.
Depending on circumstances, there may be some point about willful destruction of property (i.e. criminal actions).
Would they? As a business, depends on whether there is any fiscal point (i.e. any chance to collect, much less pay for legal expenses).
More likely, they would sell the 'debt' to someone else.
Depending on circumstances, there may be some point about willful destruction of property (i.e. criminal actions).
or report it and make it near impossible for them to get a loan for another ship.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
If the corporate / banking structure works like today's to a large degree then the owner incorporates his business and lists the ship as a corporate asset. He / she makes sure that personal finances are seperate and that there is little connection between those and the corporation.
When the business goes under the owner declares bankrupcy, dissolves the corporation and, lets the bank take the assets. The bank doesn't care particularly as they have the ship and got payments plus interest almost like in a lease. They have residual value in the ship and can write off any loss against profits meaning they make out on taxes.
The older ship market, like the older used car market, where depreciation is already maxed out would be a cash only one. There the owner couldn't use the ship as collateral but would have to put up other assets to get the loan. In this market the more unscrupulous dealers might require a sizable down payment and give out loans at outrageous interest rates on the expectation of failure. They would then repo the ship and resell it to a new mark every few months making money off the down and whatever payments they got.
I could see some alternatives to this players might be given:
Getting investors and partners to buy a ship just as you would in a corporation.
Franchising. A big corporation sells you a ship and a shipping line that is reasonably profitable with sole or limited rights to operate on it. They assist with advertising, local purchasing agents, etc. A variant would be independent owner operator coops where a group of ship operators band together to form a sort of mini-shipping line.
Megacorp / big corp operator. Here the captain and crew are employees of a big corporation and operate the ship for them. With small ships this could be for reasons like:
Special deliveries and limited delivery routes
Executive transport (like a private jet)
Test marketing and other product specialities calling for a small ship.
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Browncoatone
SOC-1
I've always run campaigns with the PCs in possession of a ship. It sort of keeps them together in a way that buying tickets together just doesn't. As an excuse to explain away why the PC's had the ship I wanted them to have in my latest campaign I just told the leader of the players that his character had purchased a raffle ticket for an old military gunship that had been converted for civilian use before it was seized to pay off the previous owners debts. Liquidating a ship in short order is difficult, but selling lotto tickets is easy. Now they're saddled with a broken down ship that is constantly needing cash infusions to keep it running that will conveniently get them from one important location to another on my schedule while keeping the group's identity coherent.
"I call it a win."
Jayne Cobb
"I call it a win."
Jayne Cobb
Generally I've always treated ships as NPC's in my campaigns until the players have done something to earn outright ownership of the ship, or have finally been able to buy a different one more to their liking.
Sometimes this is due to one of them inheriting the ship from somebody in their past - either a relation or "old war buddy" - and this gets the ball rolling. The past of the prior owner/ ship/ or somebody else might be involved ... or they might be contacted upon mustering out by somebody they knew in the service (or during service) who made it big and has this job....and he gives them a ship to use to perform it and they get the ship as part of the reward (after all, they pull this off they'll all be richer than the Emperor). If the players are of a more belligerent mind then they'll sign on as corporate security aboard some company's escort ship and take part in a trade war gone hot and might be able to win a prize they can keep - if its not too full of holes.
There are lots of ways to get players a ship that don't have to involve them laying down millions and owing the bank forever. What about a patron sending players out on an exploration mission that might (and maybe did for the last three missions) mean certain death to recover some lost object or other? Look up the Chamax Plague adventure for a good example of that: I sent the players out using that as a sort of "Aliens" game.
The characters were reasonably experienced in the campaign and had had their Free Trader destroyed in a bad mis-jump. Just the bad luck of the dice combined with poor maintenance and fueling practices, but they weren't making a lot of money and were cutting corners. Instead of the "ship vaporized" result they just blew out the jump drive and power plant - but that was more than enough for a total loss, so they just gave the "keys" to the rescue tug pilot and walked away from it.
They were contacted then by an agent for the insurance company that insured the bank that held the lien. He made them an offer they couldn't refuse: either be liable for a lot of money and be hounded in perpetuity for it, or one of the investors in the insurance company will provide them with a chance to earn a new ship - free and clear - and possibly a nice profit as well.
There was this place they needed someone to go to and check out where a prior ship had been lost in a navigational accident. Some of the cargo needed to be recovered - nothing illegal per se, just "proprietary" and certain rights of discovery and exploitation were involved and so discretion was important. Well, with that kind of beginning we all know how things go from there.....
But the plucky players did earn a nice Far Trader, make some money (but only by turning on their employer who was preparing to have them tidied up as loose strings anyway), and then went their merry way with not too many losses among them. They got a better engineer when they rolled up a casualty replacement, though.
Sometimes this is due to one of them inheriting the ship from somebody in their past - either a relation or "old war buddy" - and this gets the ball rolling. The past of the prior owner/ ship/ or somebody else might be involved ... or they might be contacted upon mustering out by somebody they knew in the service (or during service) who made it big and has this job....and he gives them a ship to use to perform it and they get the ship as part of the reward (after all, they pull this off they'll all be richer than the Emperor). If the players are of a more belligerent mind then they'll sign on as corporate security aboard some company's escort ship and take part in a trade war gone hot and might be able to win a prize they can keep - if its not too full of holes.
There are lots of ways to get players a ship that don't have to involve them laying down millions and owing the bank forever. What about a patron sending players out on an exploration mission that might (and maybe did for the last three missions) mean certain death to recover some lost object or other? Look up the Chamax Plague adventure for a good example of that: I sent the players out using that as a sort of "Aliens" game.
The characters were reasonably experienced in the campaign and had had their Free Trader destroyed in a bad mis-jump. Just the bad luck of the dice combined with poor maintenance and fueling practices, but they weren't making a lot of money and were cutting corners. Instead of the "ship vaporized" result they just blew out the jump drive and power plant - but that was more than enough for a total loss, so they just gave the "keys" to the rescue tug pilot and walked away from it.
They were contacted then by an agent for the insurance company that insured the bank that held the lien. He made them an offer they couldn't refuse: either be liable for a lot of money and be hounded in perpetuity for it, or one of the investors in the insurance company will provide them with a chance to earn a new ship - free and clear - and possibly a nice profit as well.
There was this place they needed someone to go to and check out where a prior ship had been lost in a navigational accident. Some of the cargo needed to be recovered - nothing illegal per se, just "proprietary" and certain rights of discovery and exploitation were involved and so discretion was important. Well, with that kind of beginning we all know how things go from there.....
But the plucky players did earn a nice Far Trader, make some money (but only by turning on their employer who was preparing to have them tidied up as loose strings anyway), and then went their merry way with not too many losses among them. They got a better engineer when they rolled up a casualty replacement, though.
Price and Quality
OK I've now broken it down into 4 general sections for the purchase of a used ship; Price, Broker, Availability of ships and Financing & Fees.
The following is how I (after some grate input) is how I see pricing
PRICE:
Starting point is 90% of cost -1% per year of age. This is Prime condition.
If in Fair condition -5%, if Average -10%, if Poor -15%, if ‘Pond Scum’ -25%
Prime = Looks new only thing missing “new ship smell”
Fair = Very well maintained, just needs minor systems updates
Average = Maintained, needs some work. Might have just been repo’ed
Poor = Needs annual, major system updates, wash the interior by flood
‘Pond Scum’ = Think the ship in ‘Foodrunner’
QUALITY % by starport:
A – 85% prime, 10% Fair, 5% Average
B – 15% prime, 70% Fair, 15% Average
C – 20% Fair, 70% Average, 10% Poor
D – 5% Average, 65% Poor, 30% PS
E – 5% Average, 25% Poor, 70% PS
feedback would be appreciated.
I'll post the other three sections over the next 3 days.
OK I've now broken it down into 4 general sections for the purchase of a used ship; Price, Broker, Availability of ships and Financing & Fees.
The following is how I (after some grate input) is how I see pricing
PRICE:
Starting point is 90% of cost -1% per year of age. This is Prime condition.
If in Fair condition -5%, if Average -10%, if Poor -15%, if ‘Pond Scum’ -25%
Prime = Looks new only thing missing “new ship smell”
Fair = Very well maintained, just needs minor systems updates
Average = Maintained, needs some work. Might have just been repo’ed
Poor = Needs annual, major system updates, wash the interior by flood
‘Pond Scum’ = Think the ship in ‘Foodrunner’
QUALITY % by starport:
A – 85% prime, 10% Fair, 5% Average
B – 15% prime, 70% Fair, 15% Average
C – 20% Fair, 70% Average, 10% Poor
D – 5% Average, 65% Poor, 30% PS
E – 5% Average, 25% Poor, 70% PS
feedback would be appreciated.
I'll post the other three sections over the next 3 days.
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