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United Europe?

00000I think it has rather more to do with the Turkish laborers who perform the same function in many European economies that illegal Mexican workers do in the US. If Turkey joins thee EU Turkish labor can demand equal status, which will cost employers a bundle.00000

On that point I think its more concern about being able to keep a large number of Turks who will work for peanuts from flooding in, coming over here, stealing our jobs and whatnot.

Get freedom to travel and work anywhere in the EU don't you?

AND fear of the different.

Anyway, people whos countries are currently engaged in a war on Islam shouldn't throw stones.

--

I get the impression that people around here are mostly against the idea of european integration for no reason more than they kinda like their history and whatnot.

This is something they may get over, so don't write off the EU of Transhuman Space quite yet.
 
Mr. McDonald,

Unlike, say, Spain in the mid 70s? Or Portugal a few years before that? Or the former Warsaw Pact members that will be members soon? Or the various pieces of Yugoslavia?

Slovenia is the only Yugoslav successor state joining in this round, and it's an exception--by far the richest part of post-Communist Europe, the most liberal part of the most liberal Communist country in Europe during the Cold War, lacking any ethnic conflicts apart from standard native/immigrant ones, and having its participation in the Yugoslav wars be limited to a couple of weeks of intermittant fighting that only killed a few dozen people and ended with Slovenia's complete disassociation from the conflict.

All of the other Yugoslav successor states are quite far indeed from joining the EU. Croatia might be able to make it, along with Romania and Bulgaria; but then, Croatia is also the richest of the remaining Yugoslav successor states, the most integrated with western Europe, the most democratic, et cetera. And its application is still a long shot.

"Having a European Union member-state that could conceivably fall prey to military coups and internal ethnic civil war is suitable for a cyberpunk scenario of the future, but it doesn't make for a desirable scenario."

Unlike Austria? Germany? Spain? France? Britain? Greece? All of which have fell prey to military coups and internal ethnic civil war within modern memory? Nah, you're right. It has nothing to do with Turkey being 'brown' and 'muslim', doesn't it?


It may have something to do with that, yes. More powerful evidence, though, is the fact that there have beenfour coups in my parents' lifetimes, including one just six years ago.

Just as importantly, neither Germany, nor France, nor Austria, nor Britain, nor Greece, have had civil wars in my parents' lifetimes. (Northern Ireland comes close, granted.)

"The European Union requires a fairly high standard of its member-states. It was entirely conceivable for NAFTA to be negotiated with a Mexico that was semi-democratic. To join the European Union (and its predecessor organizations), though, a country first has to be democratic and have the rule of law."

If you think DeGaulle's France in the 60s was 'democratic', you've got another thing coming.


Conservative, yes. Democratic, definitely.

Ditto for Greece.

Actually, when Greece suffered a military coup, it was rejected by its European partners as ineligible to participate in European integration. Only when the coup was overturned and the generals expelled from any hope of power did Greece have any chance.

And how long do these traits need to be in place? Spain hadn't been 'democratic' for very long before joining the EU. Of course Spain is white and christian, as as Greece.

In Spain's case, fascism was a dead letter after Franco died. The king restored democracy, the Socialist Party formed the government for two decades afterwards, and the country became a federal state--Catalonia and the Basque Country got as much self-government as they were likely to get. The collapse of fascism in Portugal was swifter still.

In Turkey's case, Ataturk died in the late 1930s. Turkey's democracy remains insecure, the last time that socialists were in power their prime minister got executed, and concessions towards Kurdish or other regional identities remain few and far between, and insecure.

"Central European applicants have done a better job of achieving both of these qualities than Turkey. More importantly, they have experiencedactual economic growth in the past decade, unlike Turkey."

Could Britain or Spain or Ireland have passed that economic growth hurdle when they finally joined? Oops, that's right... white and christian... I keep forgetting!


Britain, despite its economic problems in the 1970s, was still a wealthy country. The Republic of Ireland was poor, but it had barely more than three million inhabitants. Spain in the mid-1980s was relatively poor, but it was at roughly 80% of the EU-15 average with some regions at or above par. Turkey, as the Eurostat document I linked to pointed out, has been stuck at one-quarter of the EU-15 average for most of the past decade. Still more importantly, the Turkish population continues to grow rapidly at rates far above the European average. Spain attained Israel's 1970 level of GDP per capita the following year; Turkey still hasn't gotten there.

If Turkey was admitted immediately into the European Union, then you would introduce a country with the largest population in Europe, the least developed economy in Europe, and a military establishment of overwhelming strength and doubtful commitment to things like "democracy" and "human rights." That isn't a viable combination of characteristics for any country aspiring to join an emergent confederation. Turkey's population growth is stabilizing; if Turkey's economy picks up sharply and the military is neutered and society is freed, then it would become a viable candidate.

Until such time, though, Turkey is a bad candidate. American pressure on the EU to admit Turkey regardless of its internal faults is likely to be as productive--nay, counter-productive--as European pressure on the US to immediately admit Cuba to NAFTA, Castro and all.
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Oops, that's right... white and christian... I keep forgetting!
Please don't try to dress up the US's agenda on getting Turkey into the EU as a moral case.

- Rob.
 
Originally posted by robmyers:
Please don't try to dress up the US's agenda on getting Turkey into the EU as a moral case.
True.

Thinking about it, it occurred to me that it would extend the EU all to the Iraqi border. Kind of amusing in a wargamerish manner.

Alan B
 
robmyers opined:

"Please don't try to dress up the US's agenda on getting Turkey into the EU as a moral case."


Mr. Meyers,

Then quit jerking them around with 'negotiations' and teasing them with visions of membership sometime in the not-to-distant future. Do what 'The Economist' has suggested for years and what your own arguments against Turkish membership have illustrated; tell them flat out that they are too poor, too autocratic, too prone to coups, too big, and too Third World-ish.

Tell them the TRUTH and quit teasing them - You're good enough for NATO and maybe a few trade breaks, but you're a LONG way from even pretending to be the type of nation that can join the EU.

I happen to agree with every point Mr. McDonald made about Turkey not meeting EU requirements. The reasons for Turkey's failure to meet EU standards are not going to be solved overnight either. So quit teasing them with negotiations and stop lying about their chances.

BTW, if Cuba and Castro joined NAFTA, we'd own that island in a week. The embargo is the best friend Fidel ever had. If Florida wasn't a big electoral college state and if the Cuban refugees there weren't such a prized political plum, the embargo would have been gone decades ago.

It's called 'politics', both the US and the EU play it.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
Originally posted by Colin:
Not any of the several hundred Western Canadians that I know. There's nothing wrong with being American mind you, we just prefer being Canadian.
Well, I was a Western-Canadian for years (Albertan) and my best friends live in Calgary, Edmonton, Medicine Hat, Victoria and Vancouver. Some of them are ardent Canadians, some are ardent Albertans and could largely tell the rest of Canada to go climb a tree, and some are now BC left-coast converts who think BC is the only part of the universe that really exists anyway.

Having seen the attitude towards the West (particularly Alberta and BC) from my new home in the burbs near Ottawa, it surprises me not one whit that people might want to saw off at about the Ontario border with Manitoba. Condescending and patronizing are good words to use, as are a few other less pleasant ones.

Now, as to the issue of joining the US:

When I was out West, I travelled a lot in the US. Visited North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, among other places. Friendly folks. Had more in common with Albertans and Saskatchewanians than either of those did with Ottawa, or come to think of it than the NorthWestern US folks did with anyone from District of Columbia.

I'm not sure Alberta would be in a rush to join the USA and big powerful states like Cali, Tex, and New York would probably oppose such a dilution of power (assuming other Canadian ex-provinces tried to join too). But it would be funny to see a new nation-state emerge that included the Pacific NorthWest of the USA and the Western Canadian Provinces - as I said, they have more in common experience wise and lifestyle wise with each other than with anyone in the respective Federal Capitals.

The map of North America is a historical legacy we're stuck with, despite the fact it probably should mostly have been drawn with the long axes of states/provinces north/south rather than cutting across the middle with an international border....
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
BTW, if Cuba and Castro joined NAFTA, we'd own that island in a week. The embargo is the best friend Fidel ever had. If Florida wasn't a big electoral college state and if the Cuban refugees there weren't such a prized political plum, the embargo would have been gone decades ago.
And it means Canadians get all the nice beachfront spots (well, throw in some Germans, Paraguayans, Mexicans, etc). And the cigars and rum. And from my tourist experience there, Cuba is indeed a beautiful country and has a lot of beautiful people (who live under a rather unfortunate holdover from the Old Days, but that too will come to an end when he croaks, I suspect).

And I think I agree with you on the whole honesty thing - let Turkey in, don't let it in, whatever - just don't say one thing and do another.

And for anyone silly enough to believe there is some sort of war on behalf of any particular western state versus Muslims, get a grip. You watch too much CBC....
 
", it surprises me not one whit that people might want to saw off at about the Ontario border with Manitoba. Condescending and patronizing are good words to use, as are a few other less pleasant ones. " -- Kaladorn

Why the manitoba border? why not North Bay or Barrie?

You'll find the people of Northwestern Ontario have as much love for "Planet Toronto" as a Card Carrying (REFORM dagnabit) westerner has for Montreal.
 
Apologies to Garf. I lived in Dryden for six years, and he is of course correct. I think the Corruption starts somewhere south of the Sioux.

But I was sort of assuming provinces would defect as whole entities (because, after all, Quebec has told us Canada is divisible but Quebec is not...).

If I had free reign to redraw borders on 'lines of interest and commonality', a lot of North America would look very different.
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
It's called 'politics', both the US and the EU play it.
I agree with your points, and I'd only add the bad old joke:

"How do you tell when a politician is lying?"
"Their lips move..."

:)

- Rob.
 
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