U.S. WW 2/ Imperial Marines

[Jame]

This is in "The Fleet" forum because I can't think of anywhere else to put it.

Were the Imperial Marines and their technology originally based on the U.S. Marines? If not, then what were they based on?

Hey CotI administrators! This is why we need a section dedicated to adventurers "on the ground!"

 

[eclipse]

Originally posted by Jame:
This is in "The Fleet" forum because I can't think of anywhere else to put it.

Were the Imperial Marines and their technology originally based on the U.S. Marines? If not, then what were they based on?

Hey CotI administrators! This is why we need a section dedicated to adventurers "on the ground!"

Marc Miller was in the US Army, so I'd bet there is a fair amount of US influence there.
When Doug Berry, a former US Army NCO, wrote Ground Forces for GURPS:Traveller, he researched traditions from both the US Marine Corps and the British Royal Marines.

I recommend that book regardless of the ruleset you are using. It has a lot of rules independent background material.

As for their tech...Book 1 has Imperial Marines using revolvers.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

The OTU Imperial Marines are not really Marines the WWII. Or should I say that the marines of WWII were the last of the type of marines that I am about to describe.

Alot of players often forget in the grand sweep of the 3I that it is not planets or sectors that make up the Imperium, it is individuals. Out of contact with higher headquarters, with just general operating regulations, any Imperial Commander that can effect a population on the ground is as much the Imperium as Strephon himself. If Capt. von Stern, IN, gets on the ship's intercom and tells his marine force commander to prep for an intervention, he IS the emperor insofar as that system is concerned, and will be for at least two months until his higher headquarters figures out what the hell is going on. Understand, that is the power of a just cruiser commander with a marine infantry company and a squadron of fighters. Now think about the weight that a Rear Admiral commanding a task force centered on a Tigress-class dreadnought would have. Even better, how about the Squadron Admiral of a Battle Rider Squadron (Look Mom! I got a whole SQUADRON of battleships to enforce my whims!)?

Because of the basic fact of interstellar communications, the Imperium is nessessarily decentralized. Any commander invoking Imperial High Law can have an incredible effect on Imperial policy in that sector or subsector. It is for this reason that so many Navy and Marine officers are also nobles. Two chains of command, two possible avenues of consequences, and an increased tie to the principles and faith that holds the IDEAL of the Imperium from citizen to Emperor.

Take that to the next step. A Royal Navy Captain in the eras before reliable radio communications with a Royal Marine company aboard has much the same power. In 1880, the only American official in Alaska was a Coast Guard Cutter commander who happened to be black. He was as much America to the inhabitants of the area as President Grant, and the only thing keeping him to his duty was his oath to the Constitution....

So really, the Teufel-hunden of WWI's Belleau Wood or the China Marines of the Boxer Rebellion are a better template. Hope that helps.

 

[Zutroi]

An aside for those who would pattern their Marines on the Royal Navy's:

In the good old days, when Brittania Ruled the Seas, she ruled them using sailors 'impressed' from waterfront bars, the prisons, merchant vessels (regardless of the flag they sailed under, if you could understand The King's English you were liable to find yourself serving him! One of the main issues in the War of 1812 was British impressment of American sailors). Whaling was critical to industry (prior to petroleum, it was whale oil that lubricated the Industrial Revolution) so British whaling ships and their crews ashore were immune from the press gangs, but anybody else was fair game.

The officers were berthed at the rear of the vessel, the sailors in the 'fore, with the Marines in the middle to prevent mutiny!

 

[csmith]

Originally posted by Zutroi:
An aside for those who would pattern their Marines on the Royal Navy's:

In the good old days, when Brittania Ruled the Seas, she ruled them using sailors 'impressed' from waterfront bars, the prisons, merchant vessels (regardless of the flag they sailed under, if you could understand The King's English you were liable to find yourself serving him! One of the main issues in the War of 1812 was British impressment of American sailors). Whaling was critical to industry (prior to petroleum, it was whale oil that lubricated the Industrial Revolution) so British whaling ships and their crews ashore were immune from the press gangs, but anybody else was fair game.

The officers were berthed at the rear of the vessel, the sailors in the 'fore, with the Marines in the middle to prevent mutiny!

The war of 1812 had more to do with american policy of slavery then with the opression of the shipping. england outlawed slavery at about that time and was as a super power attempting to stop the american slave ships.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Lord Darkness:
The war of 1812 had more to do with american policy of slavery then with the opression of the shipping. england outlawed slavery at about that time and was as a super power attempting to stop the american slave ships.

I'm not going to touch that one with a ten foot pole (sorry, Vladimir), and I suggest the rest of you ignore it too.


Hans

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Ain't it funny how half the threads seem to end up political? Yeesh.

Rancke, what did you think of my Marines concept?

 

[Jame]

Ganidiirsi, I heartily agree about the political nature of many posts. Well, you did answer my question, though. Imperial Marines for CT as more WW1 than WW2 makes sense with the revolver skill (which is why I traded it for an Autopistol skill). Most of my posts, outside of Random Static and maybe The Lone Star, are more technical. Nice to know I can spark debates...

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

And besides, I LIKE the image of Force Commander Badass von Stern (the Navy Captain's younger brother, of course) entering a enemies ship cutlass in one hand and gauss pistol in the other!

It don't ALL have to be realistic after all. If we really wanted to be stupid about this we could all get out copies of "Aftermath" or "The Morrow Project" and use THEIR combat rules...

 

[Tom Schoene]

I've always assumed that Imperial Marines are inspired by the late 19th century colonial troops, including US Marines, that saw action throughtout the Middle East and Asia. If you've seen the movie THe Wind and the Lion, you know the kind of troops I'm thinking of. Local potnetate does bad things to Imperila citizens, and the Marines land to show him the error of his ways. Just as colonial troops were not above demolishing government buildings to make a point, Imperial Marines won't mind nuking a strongpoint if they have to to get someone's attention. That's why they have so many nukes on their vehicles.

Organizationally, they're usually shown as a fairly standard mech infantry formation (nevermind about Kinnunir's weird platoon; it makes no sense at all). The Marine APC that can all but double as a tank probably owes a lot to some notional "support tank" concepts that were circulating in the West at about the time Traveller first got going. SOme of these involved APCs with tank-caliber guns or with a mix of medium-caliber guns and anti-tank missiles. It makes sense for a uit that will have to fight protracted battles without reinforcement.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Another couple movies that really inspired my view of the Imperial Navy and Marines were "The Sand Pebbles" and a movie with Charleton Heston about the Peking Legation Siege during the Boxer Rebellion. I honestly can't remember the name, but I think it was "The 58 Days" or some such.

And I use Naval Landing Parties too, for vessels that don't have an onboard Marine unit. Same kind of thing really.

 

[eclipse]

I like the Pournelle CoDo Marine model too.
You have three types:
Garrison, Line & Fleet.
In Traveller terms, the Fleet Marines are your Force Multiplier ship's troops in IN vessels.
Best Troops with the best equipment. Highest bang for the Emperor's Buck. When these Marines land on your planet, look for deep hole to hide in. They are there to kick ass and nobody's bothering to take names.

Garrison troops are the ones guarding the Embassey, the Imperial Trade Delagation warehouse.
Not everybody has battledress, although you probably have a quick reaction group with it.
They all look good in Class A uniforms and know how to use the issued gauss rifle.

Line Marines...the ones to do the dirty work. The ones the Imperial Navy sends in when they can't spare Fleet troops and they can't be bothered with the paperwork to bring in elements of the Imperial Army. A dogs breakfast mix of gear, maintained by supply NCOs who commit larceny twice before breakfast and that squirrely Corporal who hide during inspections, but keeps your grav sleds running.

 

[Redleg58]

[Alot of players often forget in the grand sweep of the 3I that it is not planets or sectors that make up the Imperium, it is individuals. Out of contact with higher headquarters, with just general operating regulations, any Imperial Commander that can effect a population on the ground is as much the Imperium as Strephon himself. If Capt. von Stern, IN, gets on the ship's intercom and tells his marine force commander to prep for an intervention, he IS the emperor insofar as that system is concerned, and will be for at least two months until his higher headquarters figures out what the hell is going on. Understand, that is the power of a just cruiser commander with a marine infantry company and a squadron of fighters. Now think about the weight that a Rear Admiral commanding a task force centered on a Tigress-class dreadnought would have. Even better, how about the Squadron Admiral of a Battle Rider Squadron (Look Mom! I got a whole SQUADRON of battleships to enforce my whims!)?

So really, the Teufel-hunden of WWI's Belleau Wood or the China Marines of the Boxer Rebellion are a better template. Hope that helps. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Good points all, I tend to see the Imperium as as somewhat akin to the early American government.
Centralized near the capital and looser as you traveled west.I treat my imperial "on scene" commanders sort of like the commandant of the Texas rangers or frontier fort. I treat them as very much a law unto themselves. In those rare cases where imperial sanction may be needed, it still takes forever before the Courier boat makes it's round trip...Very often the commander's actions are a fate a complee.........

 

[trader jim]

Question??...wasent the Military in STARSHIP TROOPERS based on ALL Historical Military Services??...wouldnt the military of the future be the same???

 

[Redleg58]

Originally posted by trader jim:
Question??...wasent the Military in STARSHIP TROOPERS based on ALL Historical Military Services??...wouldnt the military of the future be the same???

Well possibly we evil Solomani but the Imperium would have a far more feudal character to it.
This IMHO is not unlike the late Byzantine Empire where there was a central army and fleet
(kept pretty much close to home or under direct imperial control)and many regional armies and
fleets. Also the Byzantine commanders could hire their own mercenaries and body guards. I use
this system in my version of the Imperium, seems to give it the right feel....

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Originally posted by trader jim:
Question??...wasent the Military in STARSHIP TROOPERS based on ALL Historical Military Services??...wouldnt the military of the future be the same???

Yes and no.

The Imperium has several thousands of years of military traditions to draw on, what with the Ziru Sirka and the Rule of Man. Then factor in the worlds that had a strong military tradition from Milieu 0... My impression was that Cleon I wanted to draw his legitimacy from the earlier empires, but not nesessarily his military tradions, beyond certain vessel names and specific units. While one could say that the Solomani defeat of the Ziru Sirka in the Ninth Interstellar War would lead to a cultural rejection of Vilani military traditon in the Ramshackle Empire, they were simply too thin on the ground to completely dominate all military discussion.

Now factor in the timescale between 21st century Earth and the 43rd century Imperium. Does anyone remember the actual autharchion that King Leonidas led to Thermopylae? That unit doesn't appear on the modern Greek army's active list either. And remember, the Long Night was nearly 2000 years long in the interim between the 2nd and 3rd Imperia. That's why there aren't any French Foreign Legions, 7th Gurkha Regiments, Grossdeutschland Infantry Regiments or 7th Cavalry Regiments.

But the Imperium DID borrow the legendary loyalty, training, and esprit de corps that seems to go hand in hand with the title "Marine" of whatever nationality. From personal experience, I know that the Italian San Marco battalion and the French "Fusil-marines" carry themselves with as much swagger as a an RMC or USMC marine.

The Imperial Marine is simply the biggest dog on a very large block, and they know it. They have the utmost faith in their mission, their Emperor/Empress, and their fellow "goons in maroon". THAT is the real tradition of the Imperial Marines...

"Give me a Marine Regiment as the fulcrum, and I can move the Universe."
Emperor Gavin, upon hearing that the 4217th Marine Line Regiment had secured a beachead on Terra, 1002

Strike From Space!

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Tom Schoene:
I've always assumed that Imperial Marines are inspired by the late 19th century colonial troops, including US Marines, that saw action throughtout the Middle East and Asia. If you've seen the movie THe Wind and the Lion, you know the kind of troops I'm thinking of. Local potnetate does bad things to Imperila citizens, and the Marines land to show him the error of his ways. Just as colonial troops were not above demolishing government buildings to make a point, Imperial Marines won't mind nuking a strongpoint if they have to to get someone's attention. That's why they have so many nukes on their vehicles.

Organizationally, they're usually shown as a fairly standard mech infantry formation (nevermind about Kinnunir's weird platoon; it makes no sense at all). The Marine APC that can all but double as a tank probably owes a lot to some notional "support tank" concepts that were circulating in the West at about the time Traveller first got going. SOme of these involved APCs with tank-caliber guns or with a mix of medium-caliber guns and anti-tank missiles. It makes sense for a uit that will have to fight protracted battles without reinforcement.

Whats the Kinuir platoon? The one in book 4 is:

PC, PS and Siggie:
2 Sections (under a Sgt?) of 2 Squads (of 9 men, including a Corporal/ Lance-Sergeant): 40 Men plus 1 Officer.

I always assumed the Marines were the Emperors own forces, and that the Army was simply the collection of the seperate colonial armies (including the Emperors own Huscarles, Guards etc.). Certainly, the Marines in FFW and IE are not elite or commando (but they are jump trained), and so are the equivalent perhaps of the US 82nd Airborne or MEU, rather than UK 16 Air Assault or 3 Commando Bde, Royal Marines.

Bryn

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Ganidiirsi O'Flynn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trader jim:
Question??...wasent the Military in STARSHIP TROOPERS based on ALL Historical Military Services??...wouldnt the military of the future be the same???

Yes and no.

The Imperium has several thousands of years of military traditions to draw on, what with the Ziru Sirka and the Rule of Man. Then factor in the worlds that had a strong military tradition from Milieu 0... My impression was that Cleon I wanted to draw his legitimacy from the earlier empires, but not nesessarily his military tradions, beyond certain vessel names and specific units. While one could say that the Solomani defeat of the Ziru Sirka in the Ninth Interstellar War would lead to a cultural rejection of Vilani military traditon in the Ramshackle Empire, they were simply too thin on the ground to completely dominate all military discussion.

Now factor in the timescale between 21st century Earth and the 43rd century Imperium. Does anyone remember the actual autharchion that King Leonidas led to Thermopylae? That unit doesn't appear on the modern Greek army's active list either. And remember, the Long Night was nearly 2000 years long in the interim between the 2nd and 3rd Imperia. That's why there aren't any French Foreign Legions, 7th Gurkha Regiments, Grossdeutschland Infantry Regiments or 7th Cavalry Regiments.

But the Imperium DID borrow the legendary loyalty, training, and esprit de corps that seems to go hand in hand with the title "Marine" of whatever nationality. From personal experience, I know that the Italian San Marco battalion and the French "Fusil-marines" carry themselves with as much swagger as a an RMC or USMC marine.

The Imperial Marine is simply the biggest dog on a very large block, and they know it. They have the utmost faith in their mission, their Emperor/Empress, and their fellow "goons in maroon". THAT is the real tradition of the Imperial Marines...

"Give me a Marine Regiment as the fulcrum, and I can move the Universe."
Emperor Gavin, upon hearing that the 4217th Marine Line Regiment had secured a beachead on Terra, 1002

Strike From Space!

Terra had a 82nd and 101st Jump Division in Invasion Earth......

Bryn

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

I always assumed the Marines were the Emperors own forces, and that the Army was simply the collection of the seperate colonial armies (including the Emperors own Huscarles, Guards etc.). Certainly, the Marines in FFW and IE are not elite or commando (but they are jump trained), and so are the equivalent perhaps of the US 82nd Airborne or MEU, rather than UK 16 Air Assault or 3 Commando Bde, Royal Marines.

Bryn [/QB]

I really like Gurps:Traveller's Ground Forces United Armies concept. It gives the responsability for ground defense to the numerically superior Subsector Armies, leaving the assault duties to the Marines (who are, after all, already deployed and configured for that).

Essentially, the UA's of each subsector are responsible for defending the worlds of that subsector under command of a Field Marshal who is responsible to the Subsector Duke, and through the noble chain of command (up to Archduke) thereafter. Each world forms regiments as able to the subsector standard of equipment and training (with the Imperial Ministry of War forming equipment standards by TL and threat assessment). Core Subsector probably has peacekeeper regiments and police units. Jewell Subsector, on the other hand, is equipped with heavy lift Army Groups with fast reaction jump divisions....

This concept seems to keep the "all together, seperately" feel of Traveller generally and it is the only way that I can see the armies of the Imperium being able to fight effectively (what with orders from Capital taking 6 months or more at Jump 6).

 

[Redleg58]

[Bryn [/QB]I really like Gurps:Traveller's Ground Forces United Armies concept. It gives the responsability for ground defense to the numerically superior Subsector Armies, leaving the assault duties to the Marines (who are, after all, already deployed and configured for that).

Essentially, the UA's of each subsector are responsible for defending the worlds of that subsector under command of a Field Marshal who is responsible to the Subsector Duke, and through the noble chain of command (up to Archduke) thereafter. Each world forms regiments as able to the subsector standard of equipment and training (with the Imperial Ministry of War forming equipment standards by TL and threat assessment). Core Subsector probably has peacekeeper regiments and police units. Jewell Subsector, on the other hand, is equipped with heavy lift Army Groups with fast reaction jump divisions....

This concept seems to keep the "all together, seperately" feel of Traveller generally and it is the only way that I can see the armies of the Imperium being able to fight effectively (what with orders from Capital taking 6 months or more at Jump 6). [/QB]

That's about how I run it, there is allot of leeway for the local commanders. This discretion is in tactical and training doctrine on the local level. These would be backed up and watched by imperial forces in important systems. But as you
stated the imperial forces are the elite shock troops on one hand and law enforcement personal on the other.